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What's the current thinking on running bike heavy vanilla SM armies in 6th? They got a buff with no longer having parenthetical toughness, but scout bikers can no longer have an 18" assault threat zone when outflanking. While squads of 9 bikes look badass, the ability to go MSM and bulk up on special weapons looks like it could be viable too. Is there a benefit to going full squads that I'm overlooking? Especially since cruising in from the side and assaulting is out, I'm not seeing a draw to going with full squads of scout bikers - is there an optimal size to scout bike squads. Roll around with 5 or 6 and have fun with the grenade launchers?

A guy at my FLGS has a Ravenwing army and it's biggest problem is lack of models. T5 isn't any harder to hurt than T4 with all the S7 being thrown around these days and any Plasma weapons will be knocking you down to your 5+ jink.

5+ isn't a great save (ask any Guard player) and can be achieved by infantry just by standing in a river. At the same time the math on Twin Linked Boltguns doesn't work out with each model costing almost double that of a Tac marine but getting less than double the number of hits.

They are more resistant to massed Bolter fire than infantry but equally vulnerable to special and heavy weapons and vs small arms fire your armor save is doing more work than your toughness is.

This makes an all-bike army quite weak as they just don't have the wounds to absorb damage and that makes it easier for the enemy to cut them down with Plasma than regular marines - if you outflank more than a quarter of your bikers then some bad reserve rolls may see you getting tabled before turn 4.

I think full scout bike squads are a little counterproductive. I see two major roles for them: Mobile locator beacons, and rapid firing krack grenades into the backs of tanks from outflank, the assaulting the following turns (if they live) They are a support/harassment unit, so you want to keep the points down.

I'd probably run a 4 man squad. Sarge w/ combi-melta, meltabombs, locator beacon. 3 other bikers, each with an AGL. Squad clocks in at 160, which is a little high for a harassment unit, but not outrageous. If you don't have anything that requires the beacon, dropping it saves a chunk of points.

While 6th did put a stop to the first turn kill shenanigans scout bikers used to pull, it also gave them a number of buffs to compensate. True T5, 4+/5++(jink) saves is surprisingly durable. Directional wound allocation makes mobile firepower more worthwhile. Hammer of wrath helps them in CC if you are going hunting for backfield support units.

 Nevelon wrote:
I think full scout bike squads are a little counterproductive. I see two major roles for them: Mobile locator beacons, and rapid firing krack grenades into the backs of tanks from outflank, the assaulting the following turns (if they live) They are a support/harassment unit, so you want to keep the points down.

I'd probably run a 4 man squad. Sarge w/ combi-melta, meltabombs, locator beacon. 3 other bikers, each with an AGL. Squad clocks in at 160, which is a little high for a harassment unit, but not outrageous. If you don't have anything that requires the beacon, dropping it saves a chunk of points.

While 6th did put a stop to the first turn kill shenanigans scout bikers used to pull, it also gave them a number of buffs to compensate. True T5, 4+/5++(jink) saves is surprisingly durable. Directional wound allocation makes mobile firepower more worthwhile. Hammer of wrath helps them in CC if you are going hunting for backfield support units.

Remember when assaulting with Bikers that Jink is a cover save so you don't get it vs overwatching flamers.

Rob451 wrote:

Remember when assaulting with Bikers that Jink is a cover save so you don't get it vs overwatching flamers.

Heavy Flamers remain the leading cause of death of my scout forces.

Scout bikers aren't perfect, but they do bring a whole lot of tricks to the table that are otherwise unavailable to codex marine forces. I really like my little squad of them.

So this thread is about scout bikers.

They were secretly amazing last edition. Just no one knew.
Now they are vaguely useful. It is was always infiltrate, scout, and then the ability to multiassault well was the killer blow.

I see them now as a cheap unit for stormtalons to outflank with.
Else a homer beacon that can infiltrate and then scout, for your drop pod armies.

Beyond those particular sort of niche lists they are now just a nuisance unit. They should find the LOS blocked position close to the enemy then cause the enemy headaches when deciding how to deal with them.
This is a usual biker trick, just linger, threaten to do something but hold back a safe distance away.

Rob451 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
I think full scout bike squads are a little counterproductive. I see two major roles for them: Mobile locator beacons, and rapid firing krack grenades into the backs of tanks from outflank, the assaulting the following turns (if they live) They are a support/harassment unit, so you want to keep the points down.

I'd probably run a 4 man squad. Sarge w/ combi-melta, meltabombs, locator beacon. 3 other bikers, each with an AGL. Squad clocks in at 160, which is a little high for a harassment unit, but not outrageous. If you don't have anything that requires the beacon, dropping it saves a chunk of points.

While 6th did put a stop to the first turn kill shenanigans scout bikers used to pull, it also gave them a number of buffs to compensate. True T5, 4+/5++(jink) saves is surprisingly durable. Directional wound allocation makes mobile firepower more worthwhile. Hammer of wrath helps them in CC if you are going hunting for backfield support units.

Remember when assaulting with Bikers that Jink is a cover save so you don't get it vs overwatching flamers.

You don't get cover saves from flamers regardless...

Portugal Jones wrote:They got a buff with no longer having parenthetical toughness, but scout bikers can no longer have an 18" assault threat zone when outflanking.

I see comments like this a lot regarding a lot of different units, but in most cases I find myself asking the same question; so what? Why would you want to assault with Scout Bikers? They are not good at it and it is not their role.

As for the army in general, I am building a White Scars army as I believe Bike armies work, you just have to make sure you don't overdo it and remember the usual basics of building a good list.

I don't know a thing about Scout Bikers but my Ravenwing/Vanilla Bike army has been kicking ass and taking names in 6th Edition (yet to lose a game but i have drawn a couple). I was punished for my Biker love throughout 5th Edition but 6th Edition has made them an extremely effective option; they are fast, tough and hit hard. Close Combat is their only weakness but you can take advantage of their mobility to keep your distance from most threats.
Currently i run a mix of Plasma and Multi-Melta Bike squads with Typhoon Speeders for support.
Here's a Battle Report of an easy win against a friend.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Portugal Jones wrote:They got a buff with no longer having parenthetical toughness, but scout bikers can no longer have an 18" assault threat zone when outflanking.

I see comments like this a lot regarding a lot of different units, but in most cases I find myself asking the same question; so what? Why would you want to assault with Scout Bikers? They are not good at it and it is not their role.

As for the army in general, I am building a White Scars army as I believe Bike armies work, you just have to make sure you don't overdo it and remember the usual basics of building a good list.

Because you give the sergeant a fist and you can reliably take out ~2 tanks (auto-hitting since nothings moved) between the PF & kraks, alternatively you can hit something like long fangs and comfortable tie them up. The lower WS and Sv is balanced out by being T5, yes they are fragile but it's a beautiful thing guranting that PF a first turn assault.

I went to a tournament (during 5th) where I ran 4 scout bikers with a PF and locator beacon, first turn I'd GoI the terminators next to the bikers and start kicking ass the following turn. I think it worked in 4/6 games I played, one was dawn of war, the other my opponent had first turn. Few people realised they had scout and infiltrate, so they'd have a 3+ cover save even if your opponent stole the intiative.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Why would you want to assault with Scout Bikers? They are not good at it and it is not their role.

It was though.
Assuming you went first you could infiltrate and scout(turbo boost as well) so you had a good position. From this position back armour with 'nades followed by multiassault into the tank's occupants and some longfangs. That would tie up the enemy. Then hopefully combat tactic out of there and hide behind some wall, to save the kill point or contest objectives.
Similar tactic from outflank or infiltrate if you were going second.

Now assaulting from outflank,scout, infiltrate is not the only reason why scout bikers can not do this anymore.

I agree now they haven't much reason to assault. They can no longer multiassault(realistically overwatch is bad, losing an attack is bad, then the rules mean it can virtually never happen ever.) They are light enough to be scared of overwatch. There is less need to meltabomb tanks(less tanks and by the time they can get cc you would hope the tanks would be all but dead.)

I guess they can move an IC 6''/12'' onto the battlefield, this must be useful. This is probably a cheeky method of both getting a homer near the enemy but also a priest, for your drop pods. However, there must be more tricks.

MFletch wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Why would you want to assault with Scout Bikers? They are not good at it and it is not their role.

It was though.
Assuming you went first you could infiltrate and scout(turbo boost as well) so you had a good position. From this position back armour with 'nades followed by multiassault into the tank's occupants and some longfangs. That would tie up the enemy.

You are trying to convince me that multi-charging Long Fangs and Grey Hunters (the only things in the same list as Long Fangs that would have been in a tank) was a good idea?

As for what their role was, that is irrelevant. What there role is is all that matters.

Bikes with lots of dakka were always horrifying. So much mobility and all that firepower. Aweful to face.

I have used scout bikers. Their role for me was never assault, even though the SGT carried a fist to threaten assault, and give a good accout if there was a desparate situation or target of opportunity. Their role was rather to bring the locator beacon for my gating terms, legion of damned and vanguard veterans, as well as employing three grenade launchers turn in and out.

Bikes can be amazing and IMO do MSU better than most due to the mobile heavy weapons and speed of manoeuvre.

MFletch wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Why would you want to assault with Scout Bikers? They are not good at it and it is not their role.

It was though.
Assuming you went first you could infiltrate and scout(turbo boost as well) so you had a good position. From this position back armour with 'nades followed by multiassault into the tank's occupants and some longfangs. That would tie up the enemy. Then hopefully combat tactic out of there and hide behind some wall, to save the kill point or contest objectives.
Similar tactic from outflank or infiltrate if you were going second.

Now assaulting from outflank,scout, infiltrate is not the only reason why scout bikers can not do this anymore.

I agree now they haven't much reason to assault. They can no longer multiassault(realistically overwatch is bad, losing an attack is bad, then the rules mean it can virtually never happen ever.) They are light enough to be scared of overwatch. There is less need to meltabomb tanks(less tanks and by the time they can get cc you would hope the tanks would be all but dead.)

I guess they can move an IC 6''/12'' onto the battlefield, this must be useful. This is probably a cheeky method of both getting a homer near the enemy but also a priest, for your drop pods. However, there must be more tricks.

Nah you'd dakka the long fangs with the bolters, then multi-assault into rhino & long fangs, PF into either you've then probably taken out the grey hunters ride and tied up the long fangs for a round. The grey hunters are then stranded without a ride, the long fangs whittled down/have missed a turn of shooting. Your opponent then has to deal with the scout bikers as due to the T5 and PF the bikers will eventually win out.

They are fragile but were great for taking advantage of surprise assaults. I felt sad then outflank/infiltrate/scout got nerfed.

Anyone had any luck with HB attack bikes? It seems they would help a bike army vs. hordes, and are ridiculously cheep. Yet you don't see them in many lists.

Parenthetical toughness doesn't help much, all that ever did was make you use the lower value for Instant Death, which doesn't apply to single-Wound models.

Bike lists are fragile due to low model count but highly maneuverable, the trick is to concentrate the bulk of your forces against part of theirs and steamroll them piecemeal. Cover/Jink saves are your friend, unit selection should involve a number of smaller bike units to optimize your special weapon selection and give your enemy more targets to chase.

Land Speeders fit thematically very will with bike lists; they're fast enough to keep up with the rest of the army, and they provide the long-ranged firepower bikes lack in the form of Typhoon launchers. I'd advise taking at least a few.

 Nevelon wrote:
Anyone had any luck with HB attack bikes? It seems they would help a bike army vs. hordes, and are ridiculously cheep. Yet you don't see them in many lists.

For 10 pts more they get a MM. As an Attack bike squad I would always run MM, but in my bike squads themselves I do run an occassional HB AB when I'm building a squad to deal with infantry.

On speeders v ABs I am generally fearful of the only vehicles in my list being armour 10 as they become missile/lascannon bait and die real early. Going all bikes makes much of the S8/9 weaponry out there less effective than against a split infantry/mech list. I like speeders, but think they are better in a heavy mech environment.

Having had an army mown down by heavy bolters i can confirm they are the business.

Have a quick look at the opponent list in battle 4 here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/465178.page

Max troops of 6 bikes apiece, three lots of attack bikes.

Hope i dont run into it again soon. Only reason i managed a draw was time, in truth he flattened my guys.