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Good points Jeffar

I am sure after reading alot of the FFG sourcebooks, there will be a overall Tau sense of goodwill, but with hints and examples of the Tau being ruthless when its required, no problems with that, I just want a bit more depth to the Tau empire ( well more than a petri dish depth as of now, so any improvement is welcome )

I would prefer their society to be held together not by some silly plot contrivence, and more on thier own beliefs, just like the Orks, Chaos, Eldar, IoM , and such. sure toss some mystery in but dont make Tau loyalty due to magic farts.

Very much so....

A debate with BCS goes something like this;
Me: the lasgun is a perfect weapon for the imperium, easy to make and tons of them.

BCS: Lasguns suck, that's why the imperium sucks because the Tau could destroy the emperor if he came back blindfolded with their CC awesome skills!

Me: ............ what?

Jefffar wrote:... the ideas of Chaos or Necron influence are false.

Why? Well even if the sword is able to manipulate Farsight, there are still tens or hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of Tau warriors under his command. These warriors are without Ethereals and, as Farsight can only be in one place at any given moment, frequently without the direct influence of Farsight. Yet still they are bonded together and are neither panicked about the loss of their Ethereals (they've been functioning without them for around 250 years) nor flocking back to the Empire.

This proves that not only can Farsight step away from the Ethereals, in the right circumstances so can large numbers of Tau.

Which means that Farsight doesn't need some sort of third power to step away. His own force of will is enough.

How many etherals accompany a cadre? How many of them travelled with Farsight?
The influence of a few "spiritual leaders" would reach how far?
1 Farsight may not control everyone personally, as I am sure not even the mightiest could "mind control" a horde at once.
But where did it state he has tens or hundreds of thousands of troops?

Why should it be "mind control" if he does a "col kurtz " ? Seems likely it was the loss of control of the etherals which set him free.
So his actual state is his free will.
I'd consider the weapon blocks out the influence of the etherals maybe? He lost them in battle, so somehow the Tau weren't protecting them enough...

My theory:

- the region was quarantined = forbidden for Tau since something there restricts / weakens the influence of the etherals.
- the etherals would have stopped him from entering, but they were already dead when he left arthas moloch and chased after the orks.
- farsight in his anger, didin't stop. He went on and dug in. Getting used to the new situation of living without etherals.
- the etherals cannot enter that region and use their influence there, thus decided to accept they can't bring him home but have to wait if he returns on his own. This takes some time, so space pope himself swapped the lead figure of the fire caste with a new one.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote: Why is it so difficult to believe that Farsight simply went renegade?

Tau fans claim that is impossible for Tau.

Please, please, please stop trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:No. All Tau go to pieces when an Ethereal dies. Both the fluff and the tabletop rules support this.

The fluff doesn't support it.

Tabletop rules aren't fluff.

Tau must be pretty popular and deep faction. Seems like 70% of threads are about Tau for some reason. Can't remember the last time I saw a thread about the Eldar.

EDIT: typo.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau must be pretty popuklar and deep faction. Seems like 70% of threads are about Tau for some reason. Can't remember the last time I saw a thread about the Eldar.

Actually very few of these "Tau" threads are there to discuss or develop Tau , most are thinly veiled hate/trash talking threads, where genocidal fantasies are played out, but meh...you get use to it.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau must be pretty popuklar and deep faction. Seems like 70% of threads are about Tau for some reason. Can't remember the last time I saw a thread about the Eldar.

Actually very few of these "Tau" threads are there to discuss or develop Tau , most are thinly veiled hate/trash talking threads, where genocidal fantasies are played out, but meh...you get use to it.

Still, the point remains. Eldar have a similiar demeanor but no one ever hates on them. Ergo, Tau must be doing something right.

Eldar have been around since the RT days so I guess its no fun to bust their chops, I personally have never liked them from a table top perspective, ( way to colorful.looks like a circus to me ) but enjoyed their fluff, the tragic downfall of a proud race, now clinging to their last glimmers of glory, same old chestnut but still works for them.

My guess is unless they do some major re-vamp of them and make them expansionistic and start claiming worlds from the big bad IoM most people dont consider them a threat from a fluff perspective, they seem to be just surviving, kinda same as the Dark eldar, both races very advanced and powerful, but with no real ambitions.

Just my 2 creds on it, again I pretty much like every faction/race/army thingy in 40k, its just the players that sometimes leave alot to be desired.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Eldar have been around since the RT days so I guess its no fun to bust their chops, I personally have never liked them from a table top perspective, ( way to colorful.looks like a circus to me ) but enjoyed their fluff, the tragic downfall of a proud race, now clinging to their last glimmers of glory, same old chestnut but still works for them.

My guess is unless they do some major re-vamp of them and make them expansionistic and start claiming worlds from the big bad IoM most people dont consider them a threat from a fluff perspective, they seem to be just surviving, kinda same as the Dark eldar, both races very advanced and powerful, but with no real ambitions.

Just my 2 creds on it, again I pretty much like every faction/race/army thingy in 40k, its just the players that sometimes leave alot to be desired.

I agree that the the Tau are a greater threat than the Eldar so that's part of it but then again the Tyranid are a greater threat than the Tau so I don't know.

There is also the factor that the Tau being seen as a aggressive (even if sometimes non-violent ) threat, but a from a fluff perspective as a "easy "target , it ilicits alot of lets wipe them out reactions, since Orks, tyranids, Necrons, Chaos, cannot be wiped out from a fluff perspective due to various factors of their own fluff.

Basically its like "hey I can't kick these guys butt, but you are small, so I will whup up on you " mentality

and perhaps worst of all, the Tau have been portrayed as a much more "humane" race to the actual human race, kinda ironic, and is also why it garners alot of responses to point as many fingers as possible to any failings the Tau have displayed in the fluff.

I just take them for what they are, and enjoy the way they play, and I love a good discussion about anything, adding to this setting is what makes 40k such a rich hobby, that and a excuse to push little plastic toys around a table as a adult and not get locked up in a funny farm for it.

The Dark Eldar just appear and steal people? Destroy worlds for fun? Blot out systems because they can? Pirate shipping for sport?

The Dark Eldar are probably a bigger threat than the Tau to the IoM to be completely honest. They operate galaxy wide, on the grand scale. They've even claimed a Primarch with their dastardliness. (Khan).

Craftworld Eldar can cause the same turmoil and have but generally don't do it unless they have some sort of goal so I can see why people consider them somewhat less of a threat to the IoM.

BrainDeleted wrote:The Dark Eldar just appear and steal people? Destroy worlds for fun? Blot out systems because they can? Pirate shipping for sport?

The Dark Eldar are probably a bigger threat than the Tau to the IoM to be completely honest. They operate galaxy wide, on the grand scale. They've even claimed a Primarch with their dastardliness. (Khan).

Craftworld Eldar can cause the same turmoil and have but generally don't do it unless they have some sort of goal so I can see why people consider them somewhat less of a threat to the IoM.

But again whats the Dark eldar's Goal, get souls and slaves to extend their lives, kill stuff, have fun, but they always scuttle back to the dark city, sure they can strike anywhere at anytime, but then they leave, its kinda like crime, it can happen anywhere at anytime but they dont stick around.

they don't hold ground or encrouch upon territory, they are very cool and all but they kinda need a galaxy to prey upon , and don't seem to be in the empire building bussines.

1hadhq wrote:How many etherals accompany a cadre? How many of them travelled with Farsight?
The influence of a few "spiritual leaders" would reach how far?
1 Farsight may not control everyone personally, as I am sure not even the mightiest could "mind control" a horde at once.
But where did it state he has tens or hundreds of thousands of troops?

Why should it be "mind control" if he does a "col kurtz " ? Seems likely it was the loss of control of the etherals which set him free.
So his actual state is his free will.
I'd consider the weapon blocks out the influence of the etherals maybe? He lost them in battle, so somehow the Tau weren't protecting them enough...

My theory:

- the region was quarantined = forbidden for Tau since something there restricts / weakens the influence of the etherals.
- the etherals would have stopped him from entering, but they were already dead when he left arthas moloch and chased after the orks.
- farsight in his anger, didin't stop. He went on and dug in. Getting used to the new situation of living without etherals.
- the etherals cannot enter that region and use their influence there, thus decided to accept they can't bring him home but have to wait if he returns on his own. This takes some time, so space pope himself swapped the lead figure of the fire caste with a new one.

We don't have definite numbers of Ethereals with a Cadre or a Continent (I believe he was leading the later but there is no evidence one way or the other), but what we do know is that they were all lost on Athras Moloch to an unknown enemy.

The idea that he has hundreds of thousands of troops comes from the fact that he has control of several worlds and has kept that control for approximately 250 years. These aren't marines, you don't expect a thousand of them to take and hold a world, let alone a half dozen when they are frequently in conflict with Orks (Preferred Enemy: Orks). Also, with a typical life span of 40 years we are talking now about generations of Firewarriors.


But yes, I agree, there doens't need to be soem sort of mind control required for him to go his own way. The fact that he was able to get so many to follow him for so long also indicates that the Tau psyche is not as dependant on external influences as some others have indicated.

He picked up the weapon on the same world the Ethereals were lost, no order of operations is for certain. It strikes me as he probably captured it during the attack that killed the Ethereals or shortly thereafter.

As for why the region was forbidden. It was Imperium Space, the wars of the 2nd Sphere had ended with an uneasy truce between Imperium and Tau, Ethereals didn't want to provoke the Imperium more.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Tau must be pretty popuklar and deep faction. Seems like 70% of threads are about Tau for some reason. Can't remember the last time I saw a thread about the Eldar.

Actually very few of these "Tau" threads are there to discuss or develop Tau , most are thinly veiled hate/trash talking threads, where genocidal fantasies are played out, but meh...you get use to it.

You better get used to it!!!

Its justbtheir un-gimdark approach. They are coming.g in trying to change things, when they definitely can't. They need to just hunker down and developed better warp travel.

Which will never happen, since they stopped researching warp and psychic technology after the Fall of Medusa V.

I think more crazy things have happene. So changing a law doesn't sound that crazy to me.

Well, they can't use the Webway since they don't have the psykers to do it( the Necrons can barely do it and they have the most advanced tech in the galaxy), and even if they did, the Eldar would make sure there's hell to pay.

Well if you subscribe to the theory that the Tau are Eldar creations (and if you check the Tau Codex there is no conflicts with the Eldar mentioned) perhaps, when the Tau are ready, the Eldar may just hand over the keys.

Tadashi wrote:Well, they can't use the Webway since they don't have the psykers to do it( the Necrons can barely do it and they have the most advanced tech in the galaxy), and even if they did, the Eldar would make sure there's hell to pay.

The Necrons were shown how to do it by a C'tan as well. The Tau likely don't have much of a chance (and by that I mean next to no chance).

Well if you subscribe to the theory that the Tau are Eldar creations (and if you check the Tau Codex there is no conflicts with the Eldar mentioned) perhaps, when the Tau are ready, the Eldar may just hand over the keys.

The Imperium would then burn all the Tau's worlds, other conflicts be damned. Not to mention Lorgar popping out of his tower and leading the entire Word Bearers Legion and stupidly huge numbers of daemons against the Tau. Lorgar HATES atheists more than he hates Imperials, and Magnus might just give him a hand, as they were quite close before and during the Heresy. Not to mention all the other renegade Chapters and such who'd be drawn to such a conflict. Even if the Eldar help them (after all Magnus and Lorgar are Daemon Primarchs and powerful Sorcerers as well, and no Farseer can challenge them directly or effectively), there's no way they can stand against so many Chaos Forces, while the Imperium turns a blind eye, letting the Forces of Chaos do the dirty work for them, as they can just perform exterminatus on the ravaged, ruined, former worlds of the Tau Empire once the Chaos Forces have moved on.

Tadashi wrote:

Well if you subscribe to the theory that the Tau are Eldar creations (and if you check the Tau Codex there is no conflicts with the Eldar mentioned) perhaps, when the Tau are ready, the Eldar may just hand over the keys.

The Imperium would then burn all the Tau's worlds, other conflicts be damned. Not to mention Lorgar popping out of his tower and leading the entire Word Bearers Legion and stupidly huge numbers of daemons against the Tau. Lorgar HATES atheists more than he hates Imperials, and Magnus might just give him a hand, as they were quite close before and during the Heresy. Not to mention all the other renegade Chapters and such who'd be drawn to such a conflict. Even if the Eldar help them (after all Magnus and Lorgar are Daemon Primarchs and powerful Sorcerers as well, and no Farseer can challenge them directly or effectively), there's no way they can stand against so many Chaos Forces, while the Imperium turns a blind eye, letting the Forces of Chaos do the dirty work for them, as they can just perform exterminatus on the ravaged, ruined, former worlds of the Tau Empire once the Chaos Forces have moved on.

Wow. Another massive jump of the Imperial imagination. Is this before or after 'The Tau isn't a significant threat to anything' statements?

And I never understood why Tau can't have a material version of FTL travel around the Segmentum Ultima in the first place? Why are the Emperor-Botherers so vehemently opposed to it if 'the Tau aren't a threat' anyway?

KplKeegan wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Well if you subscribe to the theory that the Tau are Eldar creations (and if you check the Tau Codex there is no conflicts with the Eldar mentioned) perhaps, when the Tau are ready, the Eldar may just hand over the keys.

The Imperium would then burn all the Tau's worlds, other conflicts be damned. Not to mention Lorgar popping out of his tower and leading the entire Word Bearers Legion and stupidly huge numbers of daemons against the Tau. Lorgar HATES atheists more than he hates Imperials, and Magnus might just give him a hand, as they were quite close before and during the Heresy. Not to mention all the other renegade Chapters and such who'd be drawn to such a conflict. Even if the Eldar help them (after all Magnus and Lorgar are Daemon Primarchs and powerful Sorcerers as well, and no Farseer can challenge them directly or effectively), there's no way they can stand against so many Chaos Forces, while the Imperium turns a blind eye, letting the Forces of Chaos do the dirty work for them, as they can just perform exterminatus on the ravaged, ruined, former worlds of the Tau Empire once the Chaos Forces have moved on.

Wow. Another massive jump of the Imperial imagination. Is this before or after 'The Tau isn't a significant threat to anything' statements?

And I never understood why Tau can't have a material version of FTL travel around the Segmentum Ultima in the first place? Why are the Emperor-Botherers so vehemently opposed to it if 'the Tau aren't a threat' anyway?

Its not just "oh I hate Tau so everyone can face-stomp them" its numbers. Its not hard to figure out that if you have 10,000 well trained soldiers with above average tech. Facing off against 80,000,000 soldiers with the same training but lower tech. You WILL NOT WIN. I'm by no means a IoM fanboy, I play Tyranid.

But in the grand scheme of things the Tau are not a threat to anyone YET. They WILL BE if the Ethereals lift the ban on warp research and gain good FTL but UNTIL THEN they are stuck being an inconvenience at best.

Now see there, I bolder all the words that point to the belief I have that they will be a threat later, just not now.....

Tadashi wrote:
The Imperium would then burn all the Tau's worlds, other conflicts be damned. Not to mention Lorgar popping out of his tower and leading the entire Word Bearers Legion and stupidly huge numbers of daemons against the Tau. Lorgar HATES atheists more than he hates Imperials, and Magnus might just give him a hand, as they were quite close before and during the Heresy. Not to mention all the other renegade Chapters and such who'd be drawn to such a conflict. Even if the Eldar help them (after all Magnus and Lorgar are Daemon Primarchs and powerful Sorcerers as well, and no Farseer can challenge them directly or effectively), there's no way they can stand against so many Chaos Forces, while the Imperium turns a blind eye, letting the Forces of Chaos do the dirty work for them, as they can just perform exterminatus on the ravaged, ruined, former worlds of the Tau Empire once the Chaos Forces have moved on.

I have a better idea: bring on the Angron and his 50.000 Khorne Berzerkers

edit: This is Chaos imagination now.

Sometimes, a growing threat is just that - growing. So, other major powers are too busy fighting each other until they realise that the threat as grown up and is now as powerful as they are.

It happens pretty often. The Tau in their current state is probably not that big a threat to the powers like nids, imperium, chaos,etc. But if they are ignored, and allowed to continue to grow, maybe one day, they will grow powerful enough to be able to stand on equal ground to the other major powers. Its not inconceivable.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Sometimes, a growing threat is just that - growing. So, other major powers are too busy fighting each other until they realise that the threat as grown up and is now as powerful as they are.

It happens pretty often. The Tau in their current state is probably not that big a threat to the powers like nids, imperium, chaos,etc. But if they are ignored, and allowed to continue to grow, maybe one day, they will grow powerful enough to be able to stand on equal ground to the other major powers. Its not inconceivable.

Exactly, they are no threat now. I completely agree with you. But for some reason every time I say that, there's a select few that brand me a fan boy.....

Warp travel in the 40K setting is a combination of raidly conventional technology -- the warp drive, the Gellar field and the Astronomican -- with somewhat dubious space magic based on genetics.

Of course, genetics is simply another type of physical engineering. There's no reason why a rapidly advancing technology should not find ways to encode the genetic component either as engineering or as transferable genetic technology.

Kilkrazy wrote:Warp travel in the 40K setting is a combination of raidly conventional technology -- the warp drive, the Gellar field and the Astronomican -- with somewhat dubious space magic based on genetics.

Of course, genetics is simply another type of physical engineering. There's no reason why a rapidly advancing technology should not find ways to encode the genetic component either as engineering or as transferable genetic technology.

So you are saying that if we find a way to encode the genetic component either as engineering or as transferable, by using genetic technology, we can actually master dubious space magic?
I am sending e-mails to C.E.R.N, NASA and Tokyo.

Just kidding. It is not that simple, Mankind didn't engineered navigator gene - it developed it naturally because Humans have high tights with the Warp.
Tau on the other hand don't. But that doesn't mean that they can't experiment with Kroot, Demiurg and Gue'Vesa and try. But with doing that they would risk losing that world to Chaos Daemons ( same as the many Humans planets that also tried experimenting with psykers ).
But I think that GW will eventually give Tau some new mean of transportation that doesn't have any connection with the Warp. Maybe something like FTL from "Star Trek", 70 years from one end of galaxy to another is not that much time in galactic scale.

Brother Coa wrote:But I think that GW will eventually give Tau some new mean of transportation that doesn't have any connection with the Warp. Maybe something like FTL from "Star Trek", 70 years from one end of galaxy to another is not that much time in galactic scale.

This! (But it should appear in the next Codex )

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Warp travel in the 40K setting is a combination of raidly conventional technology -- the warp drive, the Gellar field and the Astronomican -- with somewhat dubious space magic based on genetics.

Of course, genetics is simply another type of physical engineering. There's no reason why a rapidly advancing technology should not find ways to encode the genetic component either as engineering or as transferable genetic technology.

So you are saying that if we find a way to encode the genetic component either as engineering or as transferable, by using genetic technology, we can actually master dubious space magic?
I am sending e-mails to C.E.R.N, NASA and Tokyo.

Just kidding. It is not that simple, Mankind didn't engineered navigator gene - it developed it naturally because Humans have high tights with the Warp.
Tau on the other hand don't. But that doesn't mean that they can't experiment with Kroot, Demiurg and Gue'Vesa and try. But with doing that they would risk losing that world to Chaos Daemons ( same as the many Humans planets that also tried experimenting with psykers ).
But I think that GW will eventually give Tau some new mean of transportation that doesn't have any connection with the Warp. Maybe something like FTL from "Star Trek", 70 years from one end of galaxy to another is not that much time in galactic scale.

All genes developed naturally, and produce effects in the world by means of chemical and physical interactions. That doesn't mean we cannot research them and understand how they work.

Once you understand the mechanism by which a gene works, you can either replicate it or produce a different way of doing it.

For example, Tau have genes that let them see in the IR spectrum, and humans don't. Humans made night vision devices which let them do the same thing.

Actually I have been wondering about that. If tau see IR, dose that mean they can see through walls?