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I'll second the "vehicles get a 3+" suggestion. Outside of sending AV the way of target priority rules and giving everything a T/W/Sv setup, Bolt Action-style, I think that's the simplest patch for vehicles that will actually help.

I've been saying that most walkers are UP for a while now, and most tanks, much the same though somewhat less so.

 thejughead wrote:
I read it all. Your suggestions while well meant completely nerf Tau competitively.

Sorry, I'm not giving an inch on this. There are many problems in the game. You can't isolate one unit and say thats it. Collectively MCs > Vehicles > Walkers. The true issue lies 1) MC rules versus Walkers 2) in the stat profile of Dreadnaughts not the riptide. Tell all your friends to buy the new 13/13/12 dreadnaught and see what happens to a Tau player when you drop pod in.

In a friendly game I would never bring my competitive build, but big tourneys you have to.

jade_angel wrote:
Um, no.

I play Tau, and I use Riptides - though most of the time, only one.

That might be what some people want, but it's not what I'm going for.

Read my initial post. Seriously. That's where the actual suggestion is. Folks like Traditio call that suggestion asininely OP, you call it so crappy that nobody would use it?

I don't want to ban the Riptide. If I wanted that, I'd have just feckin' said so, belike.

Take a look at my proposal, and tell me what you do and don't like about it. Bear in mind the major role disagreement that's cropped up throughout the thread, here - I don't blame you for not slogging through the whole thing. Some people think the Riptide is meant to be a long-range artillery piece that drops AP2 pie-plates from afar, and complain that it's too durable for something that does that. Others - and I'm in this camp - think it's meant to be a close-support fire magnet that soaks up a ton of fire so the short-range shooters (that is, XV8s, XV25s and XV9s) can do their jobs.

I think that if you build a suit that can do both, you end up with a unit that has the problems I enumerated above, and that draws a crapton of salt. One or the other is fine - but I think the Stormsurge is the backfield pie-plate-puker, and it's not the unit I'm addressing in this post.

ETA: Once the ion weapon no longer has 72" range and the 3++ shield option doesn't exist, possibly the nova reactor is fine and doesn't need to be any more risky.

The Tau massacre the 13/13/12 dread because vehicles suck balls in 7th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
My hope is this: All (non super heavy) Vehicles get 3+ armor in the next iteration of the rules. That will mitigate the saltiness in the OP post.

A single unit might be the cause of Marine players tears, but its not the pariah of the game.

It's functionally immortal. That's a big problem for more than marines. Hell, in Tau vs Tau, you guys can't kill your own damn Riptides.

"Its all about T6/W5/Sv2+ !"

Yes, because that's WAY too good for the cost. And you know it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"LOL, the Leviathan's 4++ and this rule alone make it crazy good:

Severing Cut: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved wound from this weapon, roll a D6. On a 4+, the model suffers an additional D3 wounds which must be saved separately using the weapon’s pro le (note that these wounds do not themselves generate more additional wounds).

Dropping that into Tau lines would induce a panic. "

OMG. A weapon that actually kinda pretends to hurt MCs! Whatever wil the immortal Riptide do? Keep being immortal, that's what. See, the unsaved wound part is where your panic falls apart. You can't clear wounds against the Riptide to begin with, so that text is never relevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tau have a lot of advantages that Tau players take for granted. They have non-useless troops that are cheaper than tac marines but cause twice as many wounds vs T6 MCs (very important) from a longer range.

And then there's just being shooty in a shooty edition.

Martel732 wrote:

"LOL, the Leviathan's 4++ and this rule alone make it crazy good:

Severing Cut: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved wound from this weapon, roll a D6. On a 4+, the model suffers an additional D3 wounds which must be saved separately using the weapon’s pro le (note that these wounds do not themselves generate more additional wounds).

Dropping that into Tau lines would induce a panic. "

OMG. A weapon that actually kinda pretends to hurt MCs! Whatever wil the immortal Riptide do? Keep being immortal, that's what. See, the unsaved wound part is where your panic falls apart. You can't clear wounds against the Riptide to begin with, so that text is never relevant.

Don't you find that a bit disingenuous? It doesn't pretend to hurt mcs, it does. and 1/2 the time it hurts double. and its save is consistently better than the riptides at 4++, not "sometimes 3++ sometimes 5++"
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Datasheets/LeviathanSiegeDreadnoughtRules.pdf

As far as any vehicle walker stuff.. its the IoM tax, you can bring legal battle brother super friends, the tau can bring.. more tau, neat. "Can't" add a cheap allied guard detachment for basilisks for cheap s9ap3 no LOS templates, cant bring librarian conclave, its your tax. And the xenos largely get MC, because their allies are very limited.

And firewarriors, yeah they have a neat gun, but bs3 t3 4+, I 2, LD 7 8 with sergeant, not exactly difficult to kill, route, pin, sweeping advance, psychically dominate, and their dedicated transport is the most expensive in the game i am aware of, for a 12-11-10 non-fast, transport. the gun is good, the troop is mediocre at best.

Tau troops are crap still unless you're farsight enclaves. Their guns are ok, but they're still on a T3 4+ save model. Not exactly hard to remove, but I assume you'll ignore that or dismiss it by claiming to be tabled by the end of turn 2.

It's still got a 4++ and has 4HP, making it somewhat durable, especially since S7 spam only hurts it on 6s, and melta is stopped by the ceramite plating. Plus, it wounds on S10 (base S8) at AP2, and can take a droppod. It's a decent unit, especially for a walker. Total weapons are 2x heavy flamers (dead fire warriors), and 2 of the following in any combo:

Heavy 18" 3 S9 AP1 melta
Heavy 6 24" S7 AP3 sunder
Power fist w/ severing cut and a meltagun
Powerfist w/ armorbane and a meltagun

 pumaman1 wrote:


Don't you find that a bit disingenuous? It doesn't pretend to hurt mcs, it does. and 1/2 the time it hurts double. and its save is consistently better than the riptides at 4++, not "sometimes 3++ sometimes 5++"

Don't forget that failed nova that gives it a 5++ instead removes a wound allowing only FNP as a way to prevent the wound IIRC.

Several points:

1. It occurs to me that one of JA's initial proposals would probably fix things. I was under the impression that the 72 inch gun has barrage. Given that it doesn't:

Switch out "MC" for "infantry," change the 2+ to a 3+ and remove the ability for the riptide to get a 3+ invuln (keep it at a 5+ which can't be improved), and you've got an OK unit.

The problem with this is that the model doesn't look like an infantry model. The model only really allows two options: 1. walker or 2. monstrous creature.

2. The people who complain about ATSFKNF not only likely don't know what it does, but they are also likely sore winners. And if you're a tau player complaining about the fact that marines don't get swept, shame on you. You are literally adding insult to injury at this point. What did you assault a marine unit with which both won the fight AND would have performed a sweeping advance, but for ATSKNF?

And you know it's not fearless, right? It won't prevent my units from running off the table. It won't prevent my units from getting pinned. All it gives me is a free regroup (which rarely comes into play for me) and immunity to sweeping advances...which I'd rather not even have. I'd much prefer to have a marine unit get swept so that I can shoot whatever it was that attacked them off the table on my turn.

3. Vehicles don't need an armor save. Spammable mid strength, high rate of fire weapons need to die in a fire.

And granted that vehicles have a save, it should be no better than a 4+. Krak grenades are AP 4.

Martel732 wrote:


The Tau massacre the 13/13/12 dread because vehicles suck balls in 7th ed.

False. Tau predominantly have problems with 13 AV and add a 4++ and it doubles the problem. If this were true Tau would counter Imperial Knights not the other way around.

It's functionally immortal. That's a big problem for more than marines. Hell, in Tau vs Tau, you guys can't kill your own damn Riptides.

False. Focus fire eliminates plenty of Riptides.

OMG. A weapon that actually kinda pretends to hurt MCs! Whatever wil the immortal Riptide do? Keep being immortal, that's what. See, the unsaved wound part is where your panic falls apart. You can't clear wounds against the Riptide to begin with, so that text is never relevant.

False. Did you even read the rules. AP2 cause severe problems for Riptides. Having to Nova a 3++ turns off rending which is a problem for the burst cannons.

Tau have a lot of advantages that Tau players take for granted. They have non-useless troops that are cheaper than tac marines but cause twice as many wounds vs T6 MCs (very important) from a longer range.

And then there's just being shooty in a shooty edition.

Negative. In the competitive scene no one uses Walking MCs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:


2. The people who complain about ATSFKNF not only likely don't know what it does, but they are also likely sore winners. And if you're a tau player complaining about the fact that marines don't get swept, shame on you. You are literally adding insult to injury at this point. What did you assault a marine unit with which both won the fight AND would have performed a sweeping advance, but for ATSKNF?

And you know it's not fearless, right? It won't prevent my units from running off the table. It won't prevent my units from getting pinned. All it gives me is a free regroup (which rarely comes into play for me) and immunity to sweeping advances...which I'd rather not even have. I'd much prefer to have a marine unit get swept so that I can shoot whatever it was that attacked them off the table on my turn.

CSM Players would give their left arm for this rule. This entire thread is because you can't beat your local Tau players? Puuuuleeeze, last major tournaments have seen MEQ in the top 10. Tau power level is a tier below.

 Traditio wrote:

2. The people who complain about ATSFKNF not only likely don't know what it does, but they are also likely sore winners. And if you're a tau player complaining about the fact that marines don't get swept, shame on you. You are literally adding insult to injury at this point. What did you assault a marine unit with which both won the fight AND would have performed a sweeping advance, but for ATSKNF?

Yeah, because ONLY tau complain about ATSKNF. ONLY Tau care that they can't sweep marines, or make them consistently run off. Don't pretend otherwise, especially as ATSKNF is a very powerful rule. In case you forgot, it allows you to regroup and move, shoot and assault as normal in addition to ignoring the fear USR (which makes sense, but given how many marine armies there are makes fear nearly worthless before you factor in the prevalence of high LD, fearless, etc).

 Traditio wrote:

3. Vehicles don't need an armor save. Spammable mid strength, high rate of fire weapons need to die in a fire.

And granted that vehicles have a save, it should be no better than a 4+. Krak grenades are AP 4.

Vehicles need a save if they want to compete with MCs, especially as they already have a chart that cripples them anytime they get a pen inflicted. Plus, most of the good weapons being fired at vehicles ARE AP4 (auto cannons, HYMPs, MPs, grav, even your beloved MLs and Lascannons) Exception is eldar really with scatbikes. As an invul save? Maybe.

The flippant attitude regarding AtsknF takes this from "let's make the game better" to "let's make Marines better, especially against Tau because I enjoyed 5th Edition".

Wolfblade wrote:Yeah, because ONLY tau complain about ATSKNF. ONLY Tau care that they can't sweep marines

The person making the complaint was a Tau player. What did he try making a sweeping advance with?

If it's a riptide, I shall be filled with raeg.

Don't pretend otherwise, especially as ATSKNF is a very powerful rule.

It's an OK rule for which SM players pay a premium and which SM players have had for decades. Space marine players get ATSKNF, necron players get reanimation, eldar players get battle focus, etc. That's how it works.

In case you forgot, it allows you to regroup and move, shoot and assault as normal in addition to ignoring the fear USR (which makes sense, but given how many marine armies there are makes fear nearly worthless before you factor in the prevalence of high LD, fearless, etc).

Yes. For that rule even to come into play, you've had to have deal heavy casualties to my forces AND forced a retreat on your turn. As I said, the people who complain about this rule are sore winners.

Vehicles need a save if they want to compete with MCs

Again, why do vehicles need a buff? Why don't MCs need a nerf?

Plus, most of the good weapons being fired at vehicles ARE AP4 (auto cannons, HYMPs, MPs, grav, even your beloved MLs and Lascannons)

Missile launchers are AP3 (assuming krak) and lascannons are AP 2.

Vehicles shouldn't get a save against anti-tank weapons. This shouldn't even need to be said.

Exception is eldar really with scatbikes.

This. This is what's putting the screws to vehicles right now. Spammable mid strength weapons like scatter lasers and twin-linked devourers. Those things need to die.

 thejughead wrote:
The flippant attitude regarding AtsknF takes this from "let's make the game better" to "let's make Marines better, especially against Tau because I enjoyed 5th Edition".

ATSKNF doesn't matter because you just shoot all the marines to death. No morale checks necessary.

"
False. Focus fire eliminates plenty of Riptides. "

Except it doesn't. When you have to shoot 1800 pts to kill 200 pts, that's not a viable answer.

"AP2 cause severe problems for Riptides. Having to Nova a 3++ turns off rending which is a problem for the burst cannons. "

Riptides bounce AP 2 all day every day with the stim injector. It's cute that you think a wound leaking through after 800 pts o f stuff fires at you is a severe problem.

"Negative. In the competitive scene no one uses Walking MCs."

Except Riptides, right?

I also wouldn't say that IKs counter Tau. They are too fragile to be considered the counter to anything really. 6 HP for 350+ pts is a damn joke compared to Riptide.

 Traditio wrote:

Don't pretend otherwise, especially as ATSKNF is a very powerful rule.

It's an OK rule for which SM players pay a premium and which SM players have had for decades. Space marine players get ATSKNF, necron players get reanimation, eldar players get battle focus, etc. That's how it works.

In case you forgot, it allows you to regroup and move, shoot and assault as normal in addition to ignoring the fear USR (which makes sense, but given how many marine armies there are makes fear nearly worthless before you factor in the prevalence of high LD, fearless, etc).

Yes. For that rule even to come into play, you've had to have deal heavy casualties to my forces AND forced a retreat on your turn. As I said, the people who complain about this rule are sore winners.

so what special rule does the riptide have/the tau have that is like battle focus or ATSKNF or reanimation protocol? Supporting fire? wow, but that never comes into play because it's immortal across the board right? And are snap shots so the deadly template cannot fire so.. it doesn't have anything

And "heavy casualties" or 25% of units start of phase strength, so 2-3 models in most units. that's not really that crazy.

 pumaman1 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

"LOL, the Leviathan's 4++ and this rule alone make it crazy good:

Severing Cut: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved wound from this weapon, roll a D6. On a 4+, the model suffers an additional D3 wounds which must be saved separately using the weapon’s pro le (note that these wounds do not themselves generate more additional wounds).

Dropping that into Tau lines would induce a panic. "

OMG. A weapon that actually kinda pretends to hurt MCs! Whatever wil the immortal Riptide do? Keep being immortal, that's what. See, the unsaved wound part is where your panic falls apart. You can't clear wounds against the Riptide to begin with, so that text is never relevant.

Don't you find that a bit disingenuous? It doesn't pretend to hurt mcs, it does. and 1/2 the time it hurts double. and its save is consistently better than the riptides at 4++, not "sometimes 3++ sometimes 5++"
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Datasheets/LeviathanSiegeDreadnoughtRules.pdf

As far as any vehicle walker stuff.. its the IoM tax, you can bring legal battle brother super friends, the tau can bring.. more tau, neat. "Can't" add a cheap allied guard detachment for basilisks for cheap s9ap3 no LOS templates, cant bring librarian conclave, its your tax. And the xenos largely get MC, because their allies are very limited.

And firewarriors, yeah they have a neat gun, but bs3 t3 4+, I 2, LD 7 8 with sergeant, not exactly difficult to kill, route, pin, sweeping advance, psychically dominate, and their dedicated transport is the most expensive in the game i am aware of, for a 12-11-10 non-fast, transport. the gun is good, the troop is mediocre at best.

Firewarriors would be much worse off if IoM had ranged weapons worth a damn other than grav. But they don't.

Martel732 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
The flippant attitude regarding AtsknF takes this from "let's make the game better" to "let's make Marines better, especially against Tau because I enjoyed 5th Edition".

ATSKNF doesn't matter because you just shoot all the marines to death. No morale checks necessary.

"
False. Focus fire eliminates plenty of Riptides. "

Except it doesn't. When you have to shoot 1800 pts to kill 200 pts, that's not a viable answer.

"AP2 cause severe problems for Riptides. Having to Nova a 3++ turns off rending which is a problem for the burst cannons. "

Riptides bounce AP 2 all day every day with the stim injector. It's cute that you think a wound leaking through after 800 pts o f stuff fires at you is a severe problem.

"Negative. In the competitive scene no one uses Walking MCs."

Except Riptides, right?

Riptides are JumpJet not infantry. Very susceptible to Psy Scream/Screetch D/Weapons that wound on 2+ and Str 6 shooting. Charge it and sweep it. Tool your Marines for the job.

"ATSKNF doesn't matter because you just shoot all the marines to death. No morale checks necessary. "

Man you love to live the lie. Tool you Marines for the job.

 Traditio wrote:
Again, why do vehicles need a buff? Why don't MCs need a nerf?

Because currently vehicles largely aren't worth their points.

With the addition of Hull Points to the game, damaging vehicles effectively follows the same process as everything else - roll to hit, roll to 'wound', remove a wound on a successful roll... except that everything else gets a saving throw, and vehicles don't. And then on top of losing a wound, you still have your Damage roll making the vehicle less effective after it takes damage. So vehicles went from having an alternate damage system that made them potentially durable or potentially die to one shot, to being ridiculously easy to kill. As it currently stands, most vehicles in the game can potentially be killed by a single round of fire from a Space Marine Combat Squad armed with nothing but bolters... and that's absurd.


Monstrous Creatures are supposed to be big and scary. Nerfing them down to the same level as vehicles are currently at would be disappointing, to say the least.

Vehicles shouldn't get a save against anti-tank weapons. This shouldn't even need to be said.

Why not? Infantry get a save against anti-infantry weapons.

At this point, this thread is a Tau Troll thread.

"Man you love to live the lie."

I've had it happen way too many times. It's not a lie.

It's basically impossible to get enough marines close enough to a Riptide with the right equipment without using invis/Wolfstar/etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
At this point, this thread is a Tau Troll thread.

Because you made it that way. We (except traditio) were discussing legitimate fixes to the Riptide.

"Weapons that wound on 2+ and Str 6 shooting."

2+ armor makes it immune to those things. Poison is worthless, even scatterlasers can't really hurt them. Math trumps your claims. I can work it out for you if you like. Very few weapons significantly threaten riptides, and even fewer are economical.

Martel732 wrote:
"Man you love to live the lie."

I've had it happen way too many times. It's not a lie.

It's basically impossible to get enough marines close enough to a Riptide with the right equipment without using invis/Wolfstar/etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thejughead wrote:
At this point, this thread is a Tau Troll thread.

Because you made it that way. We (except traditio) were discussing legitimate fixes to the Riptide.

"Weapons that wound on 2+ and Str 6 shooting."

2+ armor makes it immune to those things. Poison is worthless, even scatterlasers can't really hurt them. Math trumps your claims. I can work it out for you if you like. Very few weapons significantly threaten riptides, and even fewer are economical.

I suggest you and traditio discuss Marine tactics instead of whining about the Tau Riptide.

Here's one for you:

Whites Scars Gladius:
You get free dedicated vehicles. Equip each unit with Heavy weapons (Grav, Plasma, melt).

I'm not going to spell the tactics out for you. I will tell you this. My teammate for ATC destroyed a Tau player with exactly this. First turn. Riptide wing, drone net, and 1 Broadside unit was GONE. How do I know this? I was at the table right next to him.

The Space Marine codex and its supplement has the tools to deal with Tau as a whole much less one unit.

I'm rocking BA, not marines. He's marines. I'm well aware of how to beat Tau with vanilla marines. It has to do with units I don't have access to. And it has nothing to do with ATSKNF, might I add. BA are Traditio's perfect list. Nothing is any good lol.

Still doesn't change the fact that the Riptide is far, far too durable for its points.

As long as it can hang back and shoot from way off in BFE, yes, it is. If it has to get close, it does die, though it takes a lot to bring it down, and getting shot up as you're crossing the field to get to it is less of an issue because it has to come to you (or else hang back guarding something and not contribute, but then you can ignore it).

Is the version I proposed in my initial post (as modified) still too durable for the points?

Also, a question for folks asking for a 3+ armor save: is this mainly so that AP3 weapons will bypass it, or mainly so it's more likely to fail saves against weapons that don't pierce the armor?

jade_angel wrote:

Also, a question for folks asking for a 3+ armor save: is this mainly so that AP3 weapons will bypass it, or mainly so it's more likely to fail saves against weapons that don't pierce the armor?

Kinda both, but more so that it is more likely to fail saves from Ap4 or worse. The biggest complaint most have is that it's immortal to small arms fire, yet has a 3++/5+ FNP against anit-tank weapons.
If it had a 3+ armour, small arms fire would have a chance to hurt it through weight of fire.

It also makes more sense from a fluff standpoint, since every other Jet-Pack suit and even the Storm Surge have 3+ armour saves. Broadsides have a 2+ because they sacrifice mobility.
It's like the last edition Nid codex. Tyrants could either have a 2+ armour -OR- Wings, never both. I personally would rather see the Riptide keep its mobility, hence give it a 3+ armour

People are also suggesting the Nova Charge is only on a 4+ as that makes it much more of a tactical choice to use it. 50% chance to take a wound makes it a harder choice. It also isn't that big a change since the Riptide-Wing give re-rolls to Novas anyway. I suggest 3-4 small changes like this so that the Functionality of the Riptide stays the same, but the statistical ability for the opponent to affect it increases.

BTW, I do like you idea about the IA. 24" might be a bit too short though. You could make it 36" (or whatever the range of the Heavy Burst Cannon is), but make it only have 2 profiles: S7 heavy4 AP3 or Nova-Charge S8 large blast Ap2 Ordinance. Basically, make the Riptide have to Nova Charge in order to get the blast version. If you do this, Nova could probably stay 3+, since now the Tau player has to choose between getting the blast or the 3++, and if they choose the 3++, they can't intercept with the blast.

--

jade_angel wrote:
As long as it can hang back and shoot from way off in BFE, yes, it is. If it has to get close, it does die, though it takes a lot to bring it down, and getting shot up as you're crossing the field to get to it is less of an issue because it has to come to you (or else hang back guarding something and not contribute, but then you can ignore it).

Is the version I proposed in my initial post (as modified) still too durable for the points?

Also, a question for folks asking for a 3+ armor save: is this mainly so that AP3 weapons will bypass it, or mainly so it's more likely to fail saves against weapons that don't pierce the armor?

Both. 3+ armour lets you have half a chance with mass small arms fire and ap3 lets more anti tanky weapons kill it.

 Galef wrote:


People are also suggesting the Nova Charge is only on a 4+ as that makes it much more of a tactical choice to use it. 50% chance to take a wound makes it a harder choice. It also isn't that big a change since the Riptide-Wing give re-rolls to Novas anyway. I suggest 3-4 small changes like this so that the Functionality of the Riptide stays the same, but the statistical ability for the opponent to affect it increases.
--

So you would have it nova charge, and on a 1-2-3 it takes an unsavable wound? not perhaps a 1-2 wound, 3 no effect (reactor didn't go super-critical, but also didn't partially melt down?) because believe or not, some of us don't spend the 35 points on the stims on all riptides. A bit heavier flyer meta, and you might do EWO+Velocity tracker to try and knock vendettas out of the sky etc. you only get 2

Ok, fair enough. Now, if the armor save dropped to 3+, would you want to keep the 3++ nova-charged shield? My changed version dropped that but kept the 2+ save, with the idea being to give it a weakness to anti-tank weapons. (Since the Ghostkeel has major cover protection, but with T5/3+, it is weaker to small arms by far)

With 3+ armor, 3++ nova is fine, because it can still soak a max of 78% of incoming fire, not 89%.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Galef wrote:


People are also suggesting the Nova Charge is only on a 4+ as that makes it much more of a tactical choice to use it. 50% chance to take a wound makes it a harder choice. It also isn't that big a change since the Riptide-Wing give re-rolls to Novas anyway. I suggest 3-4 small changes like this so that the Functionality of the Riptide stays the same, but the statistical ability for the opponent to affect it increases.
--

So you would have it nova charge, and on a 1-2-3 it takes an unsavable wound? not perhaps a 1-2 wound, 3 no effect (reactor didn't go super-critical, but also didn't partially melt down?) because believe or not, some of us don't spend the 35 points on the stims on all riptides. A bit heavier flyer meta, and you might do EWO+Velocity tracker to try and knock vendettas out of the sky etc. you only get 2

Exactly. If the Riptide now has only a 3+ armour and might take a wound 50% of the time it Novas, you have to make a hard choice when list building. Tactics
Alternatively, I would be fine with Stims being built into the base Riptide (with the point increase) then allowing it to buy 2 other systems. This would lower it's spammability by making it more expensive, and you don't have to note a different cost for the Stims in the wargear section, since they are already in it's base cost

Overall, I think 2 of these 3 changes would be acceptable (but maybe not all 3 changes)
- 3+ armour save
- 4+ Nova
- Ion Accelerator only 36" with only 2 profiles (1 with shots, 1 Nova profile with large blast)

--

Well, you still would, because the Ghostkeel also pays 35 points for it, but that could be taken care of in the process of tweaking that, too.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Yeah, because ONLY tau complain about ATSKNF. ONLY Tau care that they can't sweep marines

The person making the complaint was a Tau player. What did he try making a sweeping advance with?

If it's a riptide, I shall be filled with raeg.

Nobody cares. You complain and are filled with raeg at the thought of people not lining up their models and playing a game of WW1 style combat. Or people using anything from your long list of "shenanigans" which includes everything that is WW1 style combat of charging across no man's land.

Don't pretend otherwise, especially as ATSKNF is a very powerful rule.

It's an OK rule for which SM players pay a premium and which SM players have had for decades. Space marine players get ATSKNF, necron players get reanimation, eldar players get battle focus, etc. That's how it works.

JA:

I've given the matter some further consideration. A simple fix occurred to me. Understand in advance that I'm presupposing that the fair cost for a wraithknight is no less than 395 points. That said:

1. Make feel no pain part of the base model's special rules set.
2. Make the ion accelerator a free upgrade.
3. Remove the riptide's ability to upgrade its invuln (not even the wraithknight can do that).
3. Increase the cost of a riptide to no less than 325 points.
4. Move the riptide to the LoW FOC slot.
5. Abolish formations.

No other changes from the status quo are recommended.

Here are the facts:

The riptide has more wounds than a landraider.
It is way more durable than a landraider.
It has better firepower than a landraider.

Therefore:

It should cost more than a landraider.

If you answer me that a riptide now costs as much as an IK and that this is unfair, then I'll ask you:

"Fine. Then I'll let you proxy your riptide as an IK. We got a deal?"

If you tell me "no," then you admit that my solution is perfectly fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:Because currently vehicles largely aren't worth their points.

Relative to what?

A rhino, for all intents and purposes, is essentially a 3 wound, T7 creature which:

1. has a stormbolter
2. can't fight in close combat.
3. can carry 10 dudes.
4. suffers from the vehicle damage chart.
5. Can get a 5+ cover one round per game in lieu of shooting, but otherwise doesn't get an armor or invuln save.
6. Potentially can crash into terrain and get immobilized.
7. Can ram and tank-shock.

Is it worth 35 points? Well, consider the fact that 35 points is 2 1/2 marines with bolters.

For a 35 point model, I don't think that rhinos are underpowered.

Again, you only think that vehicles are underpowered because of all of the OP bull gak in the game that make vehicles look underpowered in comparison. Had the addition of hullpoints and changes to the vehicle damage table been the ONLY things that changed from 5th to 7th edition, nobody would be complaining that vehicles are underpowered. NOBODY would be claiming that a landraider isn't worth its points cost.

Vs. the traditional anti-tank weapons, vehicles most certainly are worth their points. Vs. lascannons and missile launchers, landraiders are fantastic.

Addendum:

Insaniak, what army do you play? You play IG? I tell you what. If you think that x vehicle isn't worth its points, then I'll say: "Fine. Then take its points equivalence in guardsmen or tactical marines." If you refuse, then you admit that x vehicle is worth its points.

With the addition of Hull Points to the game, damaging vehicles effectively follows the same process as everything else - roll to hit, roll to 'wound', remove a wound on a successful roll... except that everything else gets a saving throw, and vehicles don't. And then on top of losing a wound, you still have your Damage roll making the vehicle less effective after it takes damage. So vehicles went from having an alternate damage system that made them potentially durable or potentially die to one shot, to being ridiculously easy to kill.

At this point, you are simply describing the changes from 5th to 7th edition. My question, as always, is "so what?" Even with all of that considered, why is a rhino not worth 2 and a half marines?

As it currently stands, most vehicles in the game can potentially be killed by a single round of fire from a Space Marine Combat Squad armed with nothing but bolters... and that's absurd.

Sure. An AV 10 model (the weakest armor value in the game) potentially can be glanced to death by a single combat squad of tactical marines armed with nothing but bolters, assuming very lucky rolls.

Why is that absurd?

All vehicles are still completely immune to lasguns and equivalents.

Monstrous Creatures are supposed to be big and scary. Nerfing them down to the same level as vehicles are currently at would be disappointing, to say the least.

Either of two solutions is acceptable:

1. Nerf MCs
2. Appropriately price them for their current table-top strategic value.

Why not? Infantry get a save against anti-infantry weapons.

Guardsmen don't get a save against bolters. Dire avengers don't get a save against heavy bolters. And a rhino shouldn't get a save against a lascannon, missile launcher or krak grenade.

Yes, a Riptide should definitely cost more than a Land Raider, but since a Land Raider is criminally overcosted, as better statement would be "A Land Raider should cost less than a Riptide".

Tradito, your points 1-3 are great and I think most would agree with them, but points 4-6 are ....meh.

4- because you cannot nerf something hard AND give it over a 100pt increase. If you take away the 3++, make the Riptide have only a 3+ armour, rasie the cost to incorporate the FNP, then you really don't need a points increase. Points increases like you are suggesting imply the model stays AS-IS.

5- Making a Riptide a LoW is a bad idea because it not only would complete with the StormSurge, but is creates a precedent for other units to be forced into LoW slots. Dread Knights, Centurians, Wriaithlords, etc would all be candidates to LoW slots. LoW are supposed to be rare, something that the Tau fluff does not suggest about the Riptide.

6- While many would be on board with this, it pretty much gives the middle finger to armies like Harlequins & Skitarii, who do not have HQ choices and rely on Formations to field their army. It'd be like banning all Marines because Grav Centurians exist. Formations are a good idea, but GW doesn't put enough "tax units" in some of them and puts too many bonuses in others. I might amend your suggestion to allow Formations, but not allow their bonuses.

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Edit:
Quick side note, Traditio: With your suggestion that the Riptide become a Walker, are you suggesting that it be AV10 without an Amour save? Cuz that would be horrible. I get that Av10 is equal to T6 in terms of dice rolls needed, but let's look at the reverse. Dreadnaughts are AV12, lets make them T8 with 3 wounds, NO save. That sucks worse than they are now.
I'd be on board if vehicles could get armour saves. If a Riptide was a Walker with AV11/11/10, 5HPs, 3+ armour, 5++, it wouldn't be total crap.

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Land raiders also suffer from bring vehicles. And are immune to S7 spam. And LRs are generally agreed upon as sucking massively. Instead, the LR could be dropped ~50pt or so and still be overcosted as it's NOT a firepower unit. It's primarily a transport from point to point b, with some added guns just in case, so they don't even fill the same role and shouldn't be balanced against each other. Otherwise we have to also compare it to an assault marine squad, kroot squad, eldar vypers, DE warriors, and 'nid gaunts (both types) to make sure it's balanced!

And if we move the riptide to the LoW slot, and make it 325pt, people will find a way to save roughly 100pts and upgrade to a stormsurge. Between the stimms and IA, you've increased the cost by 50 points on the stimms (85pt total), and 45 on the IA (45pt total), which is a bit crazy to say the least. FnP is good, especially with a 3++, bujt with a 5++ only it's not THAT good. A 245pt marine unit can still wipe it out in one turn (drop grav devs with a combi grav)

Means marines must be OP right?

Also, what if I tell you "no" because of the allies chart? Or because I WANT to use the riptide, and not an IK? Or because I don't agree with your poor idea of balance? Or because thje Gallant isn't what I wanted (I1 melee only knight minus a heavy stubber)? I still don't agree .

(you also forgot the 3rd option of buffing vehicles so they're not trash, instead of nerfing MCs.)

And guardsmen and Tac marines are pretty much never worth their points. It's why IG is so weak. Overcosted tanks, crap infantry, terrible formations.