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pismakron wrote:
That Thousand Sons psychich power looks extremely good, honestly. I hope the rubrics get a bit cheaper, also.

Not to rain on your parade, but how is a psychic power that is harder to cast than smite and does less damage than smite good?

 Colpicklejar wrote:

pismakron wrote:
That Thousand Sons psychich power looks extremely good, honestly. I hope the rubrics get a bit cheaper, also.

Not to rain on your parade, but how is a psychic power that is harder to cast than smite and does less damage than smite good?

Friend at the hobby shop I work at also plays Thousand Sons. He's a math professor. Said something about how 2 is as reliable as that 9d6 power gets.

Personally, I'm not a fan.

Worst case scenario, however, it's another damage option to pour in once a character has exhausted Smite and Infernal Gaze.. It could add up.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

pismakron wrote:
That Thousand Sons psychich power looks extremely good, honestly. I hope the rubrics get a bit cheaper, also.

Not to rain on your parade, but how is a psychic power that is harder to cast than smite and does less damage than smite good?

It is targetable, smite is not. You can essentially use it to pick of wounded characters and such. Regards

Can confirm that the rumored 9d6 power for Thousand Sons is a thing.

Source: Monday when I spoke to my GW rep for my shop's weekly order. He had the book before we talked and told me about the power because he knows I am obsessed with TS. I couldn't get any more info, but he mentioned Thousand Sons stratagems, traits and psychic powers (PLURAL). So I hope that means more than just what 'leaked' on natfka because the relic blows.

As someone hoping to pick up Thousand Sons as my new army for 8th, I'm pretty disappointed. Thousand Sons should be exceptional psykers. They should follow a similar design philosophy as Death Guard: Small force of elite models with very powerful rules to offset weak footprint.

Thousand Sons units should be limited and inflexible, but then their powers should be above and beyond what anyone else has to compensate.

From what we're seeing so far, their powers aren't even side grades. They are flat out worse. How could they give GK, the anti psyker and anti daemon army +1 to powers. And then give Thousand Sons, the Galaxy's best sorcerers, the bonus to Denying? It's backwards.

GW seems to fundamentally misunderstand what Thousand Sons is, which gives me little hope for their codex.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
GW seems to fundamentally misunderstand what Thousand Sons is, which gives me little hope for their codex.

Oh, you mean the Thousand Sons codex that is "coming very soon" as quoted by GW all over the FB comments *before* Codex: Space Marines was even released for 8th

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Points values were never free. Power Levels were. So that's what you pay for.

The GW push for 8th edition has been Power Levels! Open Play!

So all the Matches Play stuff is supplementary add-ons. Index points cues weren't freelybavailable you needed the Index. Why would this be any different.

Because the points value tweaks are errata, and historically errata and FAQs have been available for free from the website.

 Brometheus wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
GW seems to fundamentally misunderstand what Thousand Sons is, which gives me little hope for their codex.

Oh, you mean the Thousand Sons codex that is "coming very soon" as quoted by GW all over the FB comments *before* Codex: Space Marines was even released for 8th

Yeah, that's the one I mean ;_;

That power is horrendous.

Yes, it's targeted, so is gaze.
Gaze has the same average damage output, rather similar expected result same range, same targeting.
Everything the same, except gaze has WC5 rather than WC7.
And nobody bothers with gaze.


The ONLY way it's remotely useful, is if rubrics and scarabs can go for it, and it isn't limited by rule of one.
In any real psyker, smite and gaze are absurdly better.

*sigh*.

When will rules writers understand that orks don't hit on 3+?

 Mousemuffins wrote:
*sigh*.

When will rules writers understand that orks don't hit on 3+?

It does not matter. That stratagem has the same effect regardless of Ballistic Skill.

pismakron wrote:

 Mousemuffins wrote:
*sigh*.

When will rules writers understand that orks don't hit on 3+?

It does not matter. That stratagem has the same effect regardless of Ballistic Skill.

Actually no since it doesn\t generate extra hits but extra shots. It would be lot more useful if you had BS3+. You are looking after all for more HITS rather than more shots. Extra shots are useless if they don't net you more hits.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Points values were never free. Power Levels were. So that's what you pay for.

The GW push for 8th edition has been Power Levels! Open Play!

So all the Matches Play stuff is supplementary add-ons. Index points cues weren't freelybavailable you needed the Index. Why would this be any different.

Because the points value tweaks are errata, and historically errata and FAQs have been available for free from the website.

traditionally they havent to be honest, 3rd had white dwarf errata, that cost money, then we had the chapter approved books, same with 4th, 5th had FAQs, 6 had almost no support in that area, same with 7th until near the end, now we are back to the 3rd style, but I dont need to buy white dwarf to get these changes "early", remember it was a white dwarf that gave terminators an invun in the first place, VDR, fire points, exit points, legion rules/chapter tactics, oh white dwarf..... what happened to you.

BRING BACK FAT BLOKE, MAKE WHITE DWARF GREAT AGAIN!!

tneva82 wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Mousemuffins wrote:
*sigh*.

When will rules writers understand that orks don't hit on 3+?

It does not matter. That stratagem has the same effect regardless of Ballistic Skill.

Actually no since it doesn\t generate extra hits but extra shots. It would be lot more useful if you had BS3+. You are looking after all for more HITS rather than more shots. Extra shots are useless if they don't net you more hits.

Exactly. The number of extra shots gained is independent of the BS, but better BS means more additional hits.
However, the relative improvement is always the same: everyone gets 17% more shots, and therefore 17% more hits (independently of the firer's BS). So you could also say the stratagem has the same effect for everyone, it's just a matter of how you put things.

So the rumors are probably true about TS... Well on the the bright side at least I know for a fact I wont be buying CA at all ever, and TS are probably not getting a codex anytime soon.

tneva82 wrote:
Which means negotiating custom predator, custom aspect warrior etc

Back to the concept art - Dark Reapers with shuriken cannon and Striking Scorpions with power fists.

fresus wrote:
However, the relative improvement is always the same: everyone gets 17% more shots, and therefore 17% more hits (independently of the firer's BS). So you could also say the stratagem has the same effect for everyone, it's just a matter of how you put things.

True but I would say you get more mileage out of it by using it on source that gets most hits(that are useful. 1-2 shoota hits isn't going to be a deal breaker but imagine this for some lascannons...) for it.

Albeit # of shots and roll you need to do is to be considered. This is 100% useless for orks against anything with -2 to hit. And if your BS is 5+ but you toss in 3x dice no biggie if you aren't hitting on 3+.

I would probably be using this on tankbusters myself. Not that many extra attacks or hits as with shoota but impact is going to be bigger. Still rather situational one. Rerolls are probably still to-go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So the rumors are probably true about TS... Well on the the bright side at least I know for a fact I wont be buying CA at all ever, and TS are probably not getting a codex anytime soon.

Which means you aren't going to be able to play with TS that well outside close circles. These aren't optional erratas but mandatory so on any sort of official games(leagues, tournaments etc) you either use them or don't play.

fresus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Mousemuffins wrote:
*sigh*.

When will rules writers understand that orks don't hit on 3+?

It does not matter. That stratagem has the same effect regardless of Ballistic Skill.

Actually no since it doesn\t generate extra hits but extra shots. It would be lot more useful if you had BS3+. You are looking after all for more HITS rather than more shots. Extra shots are useless if they don't net you more hits.

Exactly. The number of extra shots gained is independent of the BS, but better BS means more additional hits.
However, the relative improvement is always the same: everyone gets 17% more shots, and therefore 17% more hits (independently of the firer's BS). So you could also say the stratagem has the same effect for everyone, it's just a matter of how you put things.

While this is true, it's also pretty meaningless in that the effect of a stratagem is the net gain, and factions with BS3+ would get double the net gain in hits from the stratagem. As it stands, with no way to add to hit rolls, and only a couple units that can get re-rolls to hit (flash gits and tankbustas come to mind) this stratagem is almost never going to be worth a CP that could be used on A) The other stratagem for orks, which if it works as described is going to be bonkers powerful, B) combat interrupts, or C) rerolling one die on a charge distance or psychic test.

tneva82 wrote:
Which means you aren't going to be able to play with TS that well outside close circles. These aren't optional erratas but mandatory so on any sort of official games(leagues, tournaments etc) you either use them or don't play.

Except none of those things are needed. They are all options that you can take if you want, and since every single one of them is worthless ill just pass on all of them.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Except none of those things are needed. They are all options that you can take if you want, and since every single one of them is worthless ill just pass on all of them.

You are expected to use latest entries, point costs etc. There's no if's and but's. Sure with your friends you could use index rather than codex but go to FLGS for pickup game and you are expected to use the codex.

Similarly here you are expected to use point costs HERE rather than in codex whether it's good or bad. No "choose one" and even less so "mix&match at your choosing".

New rules like missions, terrain etc yes THOSE are optional. Errata meanwhile are no more optional than any other part of rules. Sure you can technically alter game at will but that requires more of agreement than "2000 pts matched, let's go". If you want to ignore errata you need to specifically get a clearance for that from your opponent.

the_scotsman wrote:

fresus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Mousemuffins wrote:
*sigh*.

When will rules writers understand that orks don't hit on 3+?

It does not matter. That stratagem has the same effect regardless of Ballistic Skill.

Actually no since it doesn\t generate extra hits but extra shots. It would be lot more useful if you had BS3+. You are looking after all for more HITS rather than more shots. Extra shots are useless if they don't net you more hits.

Exactly. The number of extra shots gained is independent of the BS, but better BS means more additional hits.
However, the relative improvement is always the same: everyone gets 17% more shots, and therefore 17% more hits (independently of the firer's BS). So you could also say the stratagem has the same effect for everyone, it's just a matter of how you put things.

While this is true, it's also pretty meaningless in that the effect of a stratagem is the net gain, and factions with BS3+ would get double the net gain in hits from the stratagem. As it stands, with no way to add to hit rolls, and only a couple units that can get re-rolls to hit (flash gits and tankbustas come to mind) this stratagem is almost never going to be worth a CP that could be used on A) The other stratagem for orks, which if it works as described is going to be bonkers powerful, B) combat interrupts, or C) rerolling one die on a charge distance or psychic test.

Hmm, quite the contrary, that stratagem is really good for orks, they gain more from it compared to more accurate factions. The stratagem always increases your damage by 17% (which if you are shooting with something big it deserves a CP), except if you can claim a reroll to hit, in which case the percentage is higher for lower values of BS.

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmm, quite the contrary, that stratagem is really good for orks, they gain more from it compared to more accurate factions. The stratagem always increases your damage by 17% (which if you are shooting with something big it deserves a CP), except if you can claim a reroll to hit, in which case the percentage is higher for lower values of BS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is extra shots, not hits. So it does not increase your damage by 1/6, it increases your number of shots by 1/6, which you still have to roll to hit with.

So orks, get 1/6 more shots and 1/3 of those are hits, so 1/18 more hits.
If SM had it, they would get 1/6 more shots and 1/2 of those are hits, so 1/12 more hits.

It is better for armies with better BS.

 pretre wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmm, quite the contrary, that stratagem is really good for orks, they gain more from it compared to more accurate factions. The stratagem always increases your damage by 17% (which if you are shooting with something big it deserves a CP), except if you can claim a reroll to hit, in which case the percentage is higher for lower values of BS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is extra shots, not hits. So it does not increase your damage by 1/6, it increases your number of shots by 1/6, which you still have to roll to hit with.

So orks, get 1/6 more shots and 1/3 of those are hits, so 1/18 more hits.
If SM had it, they would get 1/6 more shots and 1/2 of those are hits, so 1/12 more hits.

It is better for armies with better BS.

Getting 1/6 more shots = 1/6 more damage, no matter the BS.

You are comparing net gains per shot, not relative gains.

Nevermind. We can start another topic for stats

 Mousemuffins wrote:
*sigh*.

When will rules writers understand that orks don't hit on 3+?

It's our own fault for not playing space marines.

Spoletta wrote:

 pretre wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmm, quite the contrary, that stratagem is really good for orks, they gain more from it compared to more accurate factions. The stratagem always increases your damage by 17% (which if you are shooting with something big it deserves a CP), except if you can claim a reroll to hit, in which case the percentage is higher for lower values of BS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is extra shots, not hits. So it does not increase your damage by 1/6, it increases your number of shots by 1/6, which you still have to roll to hit with.

So orks, get 1/6 more shots and 1/3 of those are hits, so 1/18 more hits.
If SM had it, they would get 1/6 more shots and 1/2 of those are hits, so 1/12 more hits.

It is better for armies with better BS.

Getting 1/6 more shots = 1/6 more damage, no matter the BS.

You are comparing net gains per shot, not relative gains.

That is not how maths works. It's extremely obvious that higher BS armies will convert more of those extra shots into hits than a low BS army like Orks will and so have more chances to convert hits into wounds.

Spoletta wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

fresus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Mousemuffins wrote:
*sigh*.

When will rules writers understand that orks don't hit on 3+?

It does not matter. That stratagem has the same effect regardless of Ballistic Skill.

Actually no since it doesn\t generate extra hits but extra shots. It would be lot more useful if you had BS3+. You are looking after all for more HITS rather than more shots. Extra shots are useless if they don't net you more hits.

Exactly. The number of extra shots gained is independent of the BS, but better BS means more additional hits.
However, the relative improvement is always the same: everyone gets 17% more shots, and therefore 17% more hits (independently of the firer's BS). So you could also say the stratagem has the same effect for everyone, it's just a matter of how you put things.

While this is true, it's also pretty meaningless in that the effect of a stratagem is the net gain, and factions with BS3+ would get double the net gain in hits from the stratagem. As it stands, with no way to add to hit rolls, and only a couple units that can get re-rolls to hit (flash gits and tankbustas come to mind) this stratagem is almost never going to be worth a CP that could be used on A) The other stratagem for orks, which if it works as described is going to be bonkers powerful, B) combat interrupts, or C) rerolling one die on a charge distance or psychic test.

Hmm, quite the contrary, that stratagem is really good for orks, they gain more from it compared to more accurate factions. The stratagem always increases your damage by 17% (which if you are shooting with something big it deserves a CP), except if you can claim a reroll to hit, in which case the percentage is higher for lower values of BS.

The absolute best-case unit for the stratagem, arguably, is Tankbustas since they pack a reroll to hit natively. 10 tankbustas with rokkits rolls 2.8 sixes thanks to the reroll, then rolls again and gets an extra 1.55 rokkit hits on average. That is an extremely un-impactful stratagem when compared to, for instance, Forewarned, which grants a unit of dark reapers roughly double the benefit per CP spent.

It's not conditional, which makes it...ok? but it's also highly, highly inefficient on most other ork infantry, because we have no other way in the codex to obtain that reroll on shooting. no other unit does that.

But on the other hand, orks will have more shots, which means more chances for more extra shots.

For example, 10 marines cost 130 points, about the same as 22 shoota boyz.

130 points buys you 10x bolters, who get 20 shots, which is about 3 6s, which is about 2 extra hits.

132 points buys you 22x shootas, who get 44 shots, which is about 7 6s, which is about......2 extra hits.

So, yes, orks have a worse BS, but generally have more shots per point spent, so in this case our volume of shots more or less evens out our poor BS.

So, it's not that this stratagem would be OP for marines and terrible for orks, but it's kind of terrible for both. It's not really worth a command point for a handful of extra hits for either race.

That stratagem would actually make a pretty decent klan bonus (like for bad moons), but as a stratagem it's not great.

And hell, at the very minimum, this stratagem is actually better than the space marine one. The marine stratagem is limited to only imperial fists, only infantry, and only bolt weapons. Ours is any infantry and bikes armed with any weapon.

Is it just me or are these posts getting later and later each day?

GW is just messing with me I feel.

Requizen wrote:
Is it just me or are these posts getting later and later each day?

GW is just messing with me I feel.

Wednesday posts always seem to be late. I think it's because of the Twitch stuff later in the day.