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 vict0988 wrote:

If you're thinking as far back as AP2 power weapons . . .

Further back, when Power weapons ignored armor altogether.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Banshees didn't do better. You're looking through rose tinted glasses there. Scorpions had the deployment shenanigans at least, but weren't exactly making any waves.

4+ save, weapons that ignore armor and I6 was definitely better than a save that's reduced to a 5+, AP -3 weapons and a system that allows whoevers turn it is to fight first. Not to mention bonus attacks and extra wounds on the marines they're pitted against.

Forgetting the +2 M, Banshees still have a 4+ Sv, if you were to port Primaris back to 7th they'd be AP 4 so the 5+ (or 6+ if your opponent is in the right Doctrine) is better than what you would have had. Necron Gauss Immortals were pretty much the exact same as Intercessors are today, 4+ FNP translates to 2W and 24" S5 RF vs 30" SE4 RF, their only lacks were bolter discipline and +1 atk in the first round of combat. Maybe you just weren't playing against competitive lists with your Howling Banshees, not that I fault you that would be horrible. The old morale rules were horrible, you might think the new tri-point rules and tagging is bad, but pulling off more than a dozen Warriors after less than half a dozen died was stupid.

Because we're talking 3rd, 4th era, Immortals are wounding Banshees on 2s in shooting, and Banshees are only wounding back in CC on 6s. I didn't play Eldar, so wasn't using Banshees myself. Imo there was a lot to like about the older Morale rules, for example, if those Banshees hit hard enough they could run through an enemy squad, killing them all, and contact another one sticking them in combat via Consolidate or Sweeping Advance. This made Assault potentially much more deadly. Also, no Overwatch.

But the main point besides all that was that against Marines on a model to model basis, Bashees still felt somewhat capable. Accepting Primaris as the "New Marine Baseline" makes Banshees look like ultimate chumps, despite being elite warriors with potentially 100s of years of experience.


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 Melissia wrote:
Once I complete them, my Sisters will have 9d3 S8 d6 damage weapons. So yeah. Not hard to get that level of firepower and is something you should account for.

Mmmmm, Exorcists. . . . hubba hubba. Man they got good.

 Melissia wrote:
Once I complete them, my Sisters will have 9d3 S8 d6 damage weapons. So yeah. Not hard to get that level of firepower and is something you should account for.

Absolutely. And even if half of the wounds are blocked you can still deliver 20 damage a turn.

 Ishagu wrote:
The very best invuls are now a 4++. If you take a good number of anti tank shots they can still do significant damage. The 3++ isn't an issue outside of a few units like Magnus if he goes 1st.

In my Ultras army if I'm looking to compete I typically have around 16 shots or more a turn Str 8 -10 D6 damage weapons.

Even If I'm firing at something with a 4++ I will do a lot of damage.

Im not debating that. I'm talking about low rof weapons that rely on high ap being completely foiled. So again, what do you consider at weapons in 40k?

Marin wrote:
They missed IF LUL

No they didn't. The change to Doctrines means just loading up on heavy weapons and gunning everything down with them because you get both volume of fire and extra damage against vehicles isn't as potent any more.

Can someone link the rules change, or tell me which one to look at? I'm lazy this morning.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
The very best invuls are now a 4++. If you take a good number of anti tank shots they can still do significant damage. The 3++ isn't an issue outside of a few units like Magnus if he goes 1st.

In my Ultras army if I'm looking to compete I typically have around 16 shots or more a turn Str 8 -10 D6 damage weapons.

Even If I'm firing at something with a 4++ I will do a lot of damage.

Im not debating that. I'm talking about low rof weapons that rely on high ap being completely foiled. So again, what do you consider at weapons in 40k?

A las cannon is an anti tank weapon, but you need them in decent number to average the dice and damage. 1 is not enough. 2 are also not enough. Too much variance.

12 on the other hand?

You are still losing a lot of that investment vs invulns. I dont know if lascannons are really that good at AT for this reason. You are paying for 12 lascannons to get the effect of 6.

Yes but they wound t7/8 targets on a 3+

High rate of fire Str7 weapons wound on a 4/5+

As long as the numbers are good they are effective. I have no problem with some tough units that cost 300+ points having an Invul.

Ishahu proves he's incapable of math. What a shocker.

You claim my posted list is not optimal, but im using suppressors and inceptors to hedge against invulns. You didnt even understand what they were for.

Martel732 wrote:
You claim my posted list is not optimal, but im using suppressors and inceptors to hedge against invulns. You didnt even understand what they were for.

I understood exactly what they were for. I don't think you have enough.

So a ba list whittled down to one real assault unit doesnt have enough shooting? Meanwhile im being told on ba boards it had way too much shooting.

You dont seem to get why ap above -2 is not particularly worth paying for.

Obviously, Space Marines are supposed to be better than all the other factions.
Xenos factions only exist to give the Space Marines someone to beat up. Imperial Guard and other imperial factions for the most part only exist to give Space Marines someone to look down on.
Even Chaos Space Marines have to be worse, because they are not true to the Emperor of Mankind and therefore must be crushed like the scum they obviously are.

If you play 40K you gotta accept this. If you are not playing Space Marines you are a background character, an NPC. You are lower priority, a second class gamer. You should count yourself lucky to have your face kicked in to facillitate the power fantasies of the Space Marine players, for whom the game is actually made.

If we accepted this there would be far less angst.

I think this is kinda getting to the point of needling. Let's chillax?

Thats only true from a kit support standpoint.

 Da Boss wrote:
If you play 40K you gotta accept this

No I don't. Haven't accepted it for twenty years now, not about to start now.

It is a fact though, isn't it? Non marine players are second class, and only exist in the game rules and the fiction surround the game to get beat up by space marines and make them look cool.
Marines are the point of 40K.

I don't like this, but it is obviously true.

 Da Boss wrote:
It is a fact

Nope.

Space Marines haven't been considered the strongest army in 40k throughout most of 40k's history. Most popular, yes. But not necessarily the strongest.

 Ishagu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ishahu proves he's incapable of math. What a shocker.

But I'm a better player than you, evidently. I don'r cry about losing all the time lol

When have I once actually complained about losing? I've complained about bad balance. I've complained about typos and obviously bad interactions. I've obviously complained about a lot of things.

However, when have I complained about losing?


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 Melissia wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
It is a fact

Nope.

Space Marines haven't been considered the strongest army in 40k throughout most of 40k's history. Most popular, yes. But not necessarily the strongest.

Exactly. Look at Eldar with how long they've been the strongest faction each time they get updated rules. The worst they were was MID TIER in an edition that I'm pretty sure they never got an update in (5th).

 Da Boss wrote:
It is a fact though, isn't it? Non marine players are second class, and only exist in the game rules and the fiction surround the game to get beat up by space marines and make them look cool.
Marines are the point of 40K.

I don't like this, but it is obviously true.

It wasn't always that way. (Stares wistfully at csm 3.5 codex).

 Melissia wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
It is a fact

Nope.

Space Marines haven't been considered the strongest army in 40k throughout most of 40k's history. Most popular, yes. But not necessarily the strongest.

When that is the case, it is an accident rather than design. The game designers for 40K are obviously incompetent. Space Marines or a Space Marine variant have always done well in 40K.
They are in every starter, they are the focus of most of the fiction, they get the most models, the majority of the factions in the game are Space Marines, the game was balanced around them for several editions...
They never wait long for an update for their rules and always have a multitude of options.

There is no way for me to describe that other than "Space Marines are the first class faction of 40K, all other factions are second class."
I used to stress out about this, and get annoyed. I am happier since I have accepted this is a fact and therefore have zero expectation of anything being any other way.

Or "Leafblower" Guard in 5th, for that matter.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
It is a fact though, isn't it? Non marine players are second class, and only exist in the game rules and the fiction surround the game to get beat up by space marines and make them look cool.
Marines are the point of 40K.

I don't like this, but it is obviously true.

It wasn't always that way. (Stares wistfully at csm 3.5 codex).

Even then, they were just Bad Marines. From the perspective of a 3rd edition Ork player, they were still Marines. My factions special rules were specifically designed to deal with Marines, and even then, we were not that effective at it back then. (Not to mention waiting decades for my main battle tank to be released as a model I could buy...)

It is mad to me that you guys are saying that because of some badly balanced rules here and there that means that Marines are not the first class faction and all others second class. There is more to it than the poorly written half assed rules the incompetents in Nottingham come up with. Eldar have multiple models in their line that have not been updated since 2nd or 3rd edition and huge portions of their line in Finecast. So what if GW cannot balance their rules because they are incompetent? They are obviously not a first class faction like Marines (though they are the favourite Xenos faction, for sure).

 Da Boss wrote:
When that is the case, it is an accident rather than design

The "design" is they're just trying to make a fun game that sells miniatures.

Selling miniatures means creating a fun game with a cool narrative. And for that, they build up EVERY army's badassness. Even the Imperial Guard get upsold on how badass they are on a regular basis. They actually WANT a balanced game. It's just hard to balance a game with twenty plus factions and such a massive variety and history of things that have to be included.

 Melissia wrote:
I think this is kinda getting to the point of needling. Let's chillax?

Indeed.

 Melissia wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
When that is the case, it is an accident rather than design

The "design" is they're just trying to make a fun game that sells miniatures.

Selling miniatures means creating a fun game with a cool narrative. And for that, they build up EVERY army's badassness. Even the Imperial Guard get upsold on how badass they are on a regular basis. They actually WANT a balanced game. It's just hard to balance a game with twenty plus factions and such a massive variety and history of things that have to be included.

The "design" also involves trying to make the rules use fewer words rather than work better (see: rerolling misses before penalties), trying to make the new stuff better than the old stuff to push minis independent of whether that makes the game fun, and dumping big releases for one army instead of spreading out their rules releases to exacerbate any balance issues by concentrating them in one place.

Would probably be easier if so many of those 20 factions were not different variants of the one favourite faction but it seems to work for them.

 Da Boss wrote:
It is a fact though, isn't it? Non marine players are second class, and only exist in the game rules and the fiction surround the game to get beat up by space marines and make them look cool.
Marines are the point of 40K.

I don't like this, but it is obviously true.

In terms of releases you have something, but in terms of game rules you're way off base. Space Marines usually hover around "solid-middle-to-high-tier". Other armies swing near and above SM all the time. This "Space Mariens OP!" era we're having it a pretty rare occurrence, overall.

I think the focus on game rules is a red herring with regard to this. I am looking at the whole thing, the fiction, the release schedule, the model range. Space Marines dominate all of that, and like you say they are rarely ever actually BAD in game, if they are, it is only by accident. I don't believe that when other factions are really good it is on purpose either, the designers are just terrible at their jobs.

Gladius was fething stupid when it was released.