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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Potentially? Gangers with a wider selection of weapons. Such as a Basic Weapon, Pistols and CCW, making for a more flexible set of individuals.


I mean, all gangers can already have up to three weapons, so each and every one could have a basic weapon, a pistol and a CCW... I'm not sure how much more versatile would be to just add extra warm bodies to the mix.

I mean... I'm sure you could have a full roster of specific basic weapons and all, but... I can't see how that will be enough to beat someone who's just buying the killiest stuff.


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 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Chairman Aeon wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Counterpoint - with some of the kit that the Houses have access to, it would be like if the Hells Angels and the South Side Crips were running around fighting gang wars with railguns, antimatter grenades, and gigawatt lasers. It doesn't make very much sense. Its one thing to not be bound by limitations and dogma, its another thing to actually be capable of producing kit of a higher level of technology than the society you belong to at large.


Except Necromunda gangs aren't US street gangs they are PMCs. They are proxies of the noble houses who are their patrons. So rather than Crips, Bloods and Hell Angels replace your statements with IRA, PLO, Hezbollah, ISIS, HAMAS, the Contras, Shining Path, ad nasseum. Also Necromunda produces a lot of kit for the Imperium so if a few (thousand) units find their way into the hands of "gangs" it's still a rounding error especially as some houses like Van Saar are the manufacturers of said weaponry.



I was unaware the Imperium was producing Jetbikes, Hoverboards and Infinity-esque TAGs.


Seems you have to look into custodes and grey knights to see what's feasible for gangers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/15 18:50:26


 
   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The Gangs are essentially PMC in 40K.

Add in Necromunda being a major arms manufacturer world, and it does make sense. You cream off a tiny percentage of your output for home use, and you end up with comparatively well armed soldiers, even those that act as Cats Paws.

And there’s precisely two thirds of fifty percent of absolutely bugger all preventing a given group placing a moratorium on stuff they don’t think fits.


Thing is, a lot of the stuff that the Necromunda houses are using isn't being manufactured for the Imperium at all. You can't "cream off a percentage" of something that isn't being produced. The implication here is the houses have their own secret factories producing kit that is arguably technologically superior to that of the Imperiums actual military forces.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 oni wrote:
This make me think of Earthworm Jim.
And the last Goliath "bike" is a ripoff from Halo
So I guess that's the design teams MO. Copy it from video games.
Necromunda seems to be getting a bit silly.

Necromunda has been getting a bit silly ever since someone decided that random gangers in the underhive should have more advanced and rarer tech than the vast majority of the Imperium's actual armies. Now it's just plain ludicrous.


I don't see how that's an issue. They're some of the wealthiest houses on Necromunda and aren't as bound by the limitations imposed by the rest of the Imperium. The Imperiums armie aren't meant to be equipped with the best - The logistics, bureaucracy, rules, Mechanicus's dogma etc that affect those aren't much of a factor for the Necromunda houses.



Black Library is non-canon and full of stuff that literally breaks the norms of the setting, so thats not a good argument. The "true canon", per GW itself, is whats published in publications by the design studio, and last I recall it said that the construction of jetbikes like that used by Samael of the Dark Angels and the Adeptus Custodes are basically a secret lost to time that the Imperium is incapable of replicating today. And yet, the roller-derby girls are blitzing around on them like its not big deal.


Black library is not "non-canon". It's just as canon as everything else is.
   
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I think its more that GW's concept of canon is more one that they go for by aesthetics and feel rather than specific details and technicalities. Heck most BL books don't even describe many common things in detail - they give general details but never specifics. Which is honestly a touch smart as it means when GW updates the model it still fits into most stories unless they go really far off the original.


Plus because they've a long time line and a huge galaxy to play with they can have instances where two opposing views are perfectly accurate. Considering it can take years to travel across the Imperium its fully possible for technology to be "Lost to the Imperium" on one world and yet many systems over its commonplace technology.

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chaos0xomega wrote:

The "true canon", per GW itself, is whats published in publications by the design studio.


This is not only untrue, but blatantly so. You're trying to put your headcanon in GW's mouth. Again.

Hell, GW declared the FFG books were canon. And even added places from them to the map in the main Codecies.



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 BaronIveagh wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

The "true canon", per GW itself, is whats published in publications by the design studio.


This is not only untrue, but blatantly so. You're trying to put your headcanon in GW's mouth. Again.

Hell, GW declared the FFG books were canon. And even added places from them to the map in the main Codecies.



GW and BL brass have basically said as much in the past (okay, technically they said take what the design studio says as gospel and everything else as being subject to interpretation, but whatever, close enough). I suppose that may have been replaced with "everything is canon, not everything is true" or whatever more recently, but the point still stands. We know that Terminators can't do backflips, marines and eldar don't run around with multilasers as their primary weapon, (and marines most certainly don't rape eldar farseers to get their rocks off), etc. etc. etc. On an almost monthly basis something gets published in Black Library in direct contradiction to lore found in codexes and rulebooks. As these things both cannot be simultaneously true, one of them has to therefore be untrue (or, in more direct terms - not canon). Anyway, point is, just because a Black Library book says a civvie rides around on a jetbike for their morning commute to the skull farm doesn't mean its actually *true*.

Also, I'm going to need a source for your claim that GW declared FFGs books canon. Per ADB, the only sources officially authorized to create IP are and were Black Library, Games Workshop, and Forgeworld - he has specifically said in the past FFG were not included in this and that it wasn't clear exactly where things stood with FFG.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
Also, I'm going to need a source for your claim that GW declared FFGs books canon. Per ADB, the only sources officially authorized to create IP are and were Black Library, Games Workshop, and Forgeworld - he has specifically said in the past FFG were not included in this and that it wasn't clear exactly where things stood with FFG.
There are far more controls in place with what GW does ever since the Goto Affair. Put simply, if GW doesn't want something published, it doesn't get published. If it gets published, it's because they're ok with it being part of 40k.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
(okay, technically they said take what the design studio says as gospel and everything else as being subject to interpretation, ...


I would be curious as to just where this was said, and if it was, how many decades ago it was. Because I don't recall ever seeing anything from GW addressing what is and isn't canon beyond the very generic 'It's all canon and none of it is' statement from the Black Library guys.


But really, it's not particularly relevant, because the other fun thing about 40K 'canon' is that it changes. The art of jetbike building was said to be lost to the Imperium in older codexes, but the 6th edition DA codex mentions only that Sammy's bike is itself an ancient relic, and drops the part about jetbikes in general... presumably to allow for the introduction of the Custodes, but it also gives them some leeway elsewhere in the setting. Not to mention that the jetbikes being 'lost tech' while landspeeders still existed was always a little weird...

Combine that with the obvious tech level difference between Sammy's bike and the comparatively primitive flying turbines that they've created here for the Eschers, and I don't think there's a problem here.

 
   
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The bike/ turbine engine rider looks pretty cool.

They honestly make me want to pick up a bunch of speeders, Old RT jetbikes, some flying wings, and Dark Eldar Scourge wings, Dark Eldar jet bikes, some Eldar jet bikes, and make a proper gang of them revolving around the gang leader riding the jet engine. Reminds me of the old Judge Dredd Flying bike/ Surf gangs.

I need to go back and read up[ on the make your own vehicle rules. I have a few flyer rider ideas, based on the Eldar's Viper and Jetbikes that would stand a chance for an outlaw gang.

Like the way they are going full Jet Girl with the rider.

SOMEONE needs to model up a flying rider with a cowboy hat, ALA Dr Strangelove.

Question- Is there a outlander Rogue Techpriest out there in the character lists?
Second Question- How many of those flying engines can you get for a gang?



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I also understood the 'lost art' being that of producing new, relatively small antigrav capable of lifting armored Astartes aloft (and perhaps considerably higher aloft) and at great speed.

I didn't think 'antigrav' itself was lost, as Speeders, which can lift multiple Astartes, are possible. There's tons of very small antigrav, for things like servo skulls. There's plenty of relic antigrav for people with access to it, like Custodes.

I just thought that they were saying that mass-producing Astartes grade jetbikes was a lost art.

For all we know, Escher 'jetbikes' can't get much more than 3-4 feet off the ground, while Astartes Jetbikes may have been capable of altitudes of dozens or hundreds of feet.

I'm not crazy about the generally high level of tech available to people who can't consistently afford knives and gas masks, but that seems to be a lost battle already in Necromunda, where a gang of street ruffians can save up and buy a plasma cannon after one or two good hauls. I wish the Ash Wastes were a little more Mad-Max cobbled together promethium vehicles, but the dang thing does look cool as all hell.

 
   
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Definitely like this jetbike. As far as the gangs being to well equipped compared to the Guard it happens all to frequently that the best the government can issue is not the best money can buy. Many cutting edge weapon systems and equipment like body armor were purchased and fielded using soldiers own money. During WWI you even had weapons like the BAR and Thompson SMG not issued to front line troops to prevent them from falling into enemy hands.

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The Necromunda vehicles have really been an embarassment of riches for Ork players.

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 Albertorius wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And there is nothing at all preventing you from running your gang that way if you so wish.

I mean, other than the rules, and being an donkey-cave for not letting other people play with the new toys, of course.

I can play by myself, but that's usually not very fun for a two players game.


But that wasn’t my claim there, was it? You can run a relatively low tech Gang if that’s your preference. Indeed you’re likely to end up more numerous than someone sinking Creds into higher tech, more powerful weapons.


And the game makes sure to have a ganger cap on the scenarios, so... what does that earn me, exactly?

There are a number of missions where your entire gang can enter play regardless of size.

Having many members also protects you from going into matches down fighters due to injury.

Lasgun/autogun spam is still one of the most powerful gang archetypes. Additionally, it comes online much quicker than some of the other power archetypes (and by now everybody should be familiar with the reality that a gang which does well early in a campaign can snowball into a top position).

So, yes, concentrating on having many low-geared fighters is a valid strategy, and you're not really giving much up by designing a gang that looks exactly like a powerful-in-game-Necromunda-gang would have looked like decades ago.

But the crux of your issue is here:
 Albertorius wrote:

I can play by myself, but that's usually not very fun for a two players game.

...you're more interested in running other peoples' gangs than running yours. Definitely entitled to that, but if it's the path you choose you should expect to do the legwork to find like-minded people.

 insaniak wrote:

I would be curious as to just where this was said, and if it was, how many decades ago it was. Because I don't recall ever seeing anything from GW addressing what is and isn't canon beyond the very generic 'It's all canon and none of it is' statement from the Black Library guys.

I would also like to know the source for that belief.

chaos0xomega is fond of quoting very "inside baseball" sources... sometimes I recognize them (reddit AMAs, Goonhammer interviews, etc.), but it really should be incumbent on a person to identify their source when they make an appeal to authority like that.
   
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They needed to keep the art of jet bikes hidden off the books to prevent hoards of White Scars from requisitioning them.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/16 18:14:18


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Da Butcha wrote:
I also understood the 'lost art' being that of producing new, relatively small antigrav capable of lifting armored Astartes aloft (and perhaps considerably higher aloft) and at great speed.

I didn't think 'antigrav' itself was lost, as Speeders, which can lift multiple Astartes, are possible. There's tons of very small antigrav, for things like servo skulls. There's plenty of relic antigrav for people with access to it, like Custodes.

I just thought that they were saying that mass-producing Astartes grade jetbikes was a lost art.

For all we know, Escher 'jetbikes' can't get much more than 3-4 feet off the ground, while Astartes Jetbikes may have been capable of altitudes of dozens or hundreds of feet.

I'm not crazy about the generally high level of tech available to people who can't consistently afford knives and gas masks, but that seems to be a lost battle already in Necromunda, where a gang of street ruffians can save up and buy a plasma cannon after one or two good hauls. I wish the Ash Wastes were a little more Mad-Max cobbled together promethium vehicles, but the dang thing does look cool as all hell.


I can think of a couple of reasons why jetbikes wouldn’t be widely issued to the military; from a sensible, real world POV, just because a bunch of gangers can cobble together a handful of working bikes, doesn’t make it cheap, safe reliable or supportable enough to be mass produced for the frontline (see Colin Furze’s hover bike. Or many of the other lunatic, potentially lethal things he produces!). In the insanity of 40K you also have to add in Mechanicum stamp of approval, which these things certainly do not have!

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 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
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 ArcaneHorror wrote:
No comments on the Corpse Grinders weapons pack? In addition to being great for Necromunda, I think that they would be awesome on CSM models.
I think it's great. Also makes me hopeful that we might see the missing Ogryn Slave weapons sooner rather than later.

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They should've made some grenade arms for the initiate, and some strap-on explosive. They also could use new sculpt honestly, Maybe female Initiate, or just more sculpt with better proportion and less stiff pose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/16 07:10:40


 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
No comments on the Corpse Grinders weapons pack? In addition to being great for Necromunda, I think that they would be awesome on CSM models.
I think it's great. Also makes me hopeful that we might see the missing Ogryn Slave weapons sooner rather than later.


Yeah, I reckon they'll just appear out the blue. Same for the Hive Scum, I reckon we'll get a bunch of generic weapons to equip them with
   
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Hive Scum pretty much got most of the popular weapon option in the kit. Only weapons missing are maul, 2 handed axe and 2 handed hammer.
   
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Chopstick wrote:
Hive Scum pretty much got most of the popular weapon option in the kit.


Yeah, but only one copy and one pose of each, per sprue.

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On jet bikes, generally the Imperium restricts what it gives its own military, memories of the Horus Heresy are still fresh after all.

The IG could all have bolters and power armor but the Imperium chooses not to give it to them, reserving them for more trustworthy units. It's not hard to imagine that they limit jet bikes to a handful of units in order to keep them tied to the ground. Or that they suppressed jet bike tech for so long it has become almost lost.

Another possible way to go is that the Imperium needs equipment that can be used and repaired on (nearly) ever world and on pretty short notice. Perhaps Necromunda jet bikes rely on some quirk of the planet's magnetic field, or need some rare fuel or exotic mineral to work. The few Imperial jet bikes we see in operation have the advantage working anywhere. Desert worlds, the surface of asteroids, planet-sized factories, anywhere. While civilian made jet bikes crash outside of the environment they were built for.

It's not a great answer, the Ash Wastes are supposed to be a supremely hostile environment (though not so hostile as to require goggles, or dust masks, or covering your midriff) and gangs are supposed to building stuff out of discarded waste. But it is AN answer and can work with enough application of fluff.

 
   
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The clan house vehicle are made in their house wasteland workshops. The gangs customize and maintain their ride, but they don't build it most of the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/17 14:08:18


 
   
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The Ash Wastes might be a wasteland, but its clear that the gangers that make it there have more resources than those at the very bottom of the Hive City itself.

Plus waste and rubbish are different things in different social setups. Necronmunda is a huge production site and each of the Gangs generally have those at least in the mid-tier manufacture sectors making stuff.

It's similar to how in something like Battle Angel Alita there's a huge settlement living off the rubbish of the higher-ups. That "rubbish" is things like cybernetic parts and more, which we today would consider super high tech, but which is waste in that setting.

Heck we do the very same thing, our waste junk phones and cars and such are shipped out to poorer nations where they are repaired, reconditioned and sold on again.



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chaos0xomega wrote:

GW and BL brass have basically said as much in the past (okay, technically they said take what the design studio says as gospel and everything else as being subject to interpretation, but whatever, close enough). I suppose that may have been replaced with "everything is canon, not everything is true" or whatever more recently, but the point still stands. We know that Terminators can't do backflips, marines and eldar don't run around with multilasers as their primary weapon, (and marines most certainly don't rape eldar farseers to get their rocks off), etc. etc. etc. On an almost monthly basis something gets published in Black Library in direct contradiction to lore found in codexes and rulebooks. As these things both cannot be simultaneously true, one of them has to therefore be untrue (or, in more direct terms - not canon). Anyway, point is, just because a Black Library book says a civvie rides around on a jetbike for their morning commute to the skull farm doesn't mean its actually *true*.

Also, I'm going to need a source for your claim that GW declared FFGs books canon. Per ADB, the only sources officially authorized to create IP are and were Black Library, Games Workshop, and Forgeworld - he has specifically said in the past FFG were not included in this and that it wasn't clear exactly where things stood with FFG.


"Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex" - Marc Gascoigne, former Black Library Head, quoted by ADB. And, with Alan Merritt having directly overseen FFG's work, yes, it's cannon. Ask HBMC some time about the flaming hoops of bs they had to leap through *because* it was offical. The battle-cry for the Storm Wardens had to be revised almost 20 times because GW's IP managers were so far up FFG's ass over even the most inconsequential details.


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 Flinty wrote:
held aloft by gravitic drives the like of which are long lost to the Techpriests of the 41st Millenium.


They had no problem with gravitic drives for speeders, hover tanks, and all the other ridiculous crap the space marines have, but they can't find them for jetbikes? Literally just use 1 from a repulsor and make it smaller...
   
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Toofast wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
held aloft by gravitic drives the like of which are long lost to the Techpriests of the 41st Millenium.


They had no problem with gravitic drives for speeders, hover tanks, and all the other ridiculous crap the space marines have, but they can't find them for jetbikes? Literally just use 1 from a repulsor and make it smaller...


My local Mechanicus Priest informs me that you can't simply make things smaller. The Machine Spirit can only be contained with a vessel of suitable size. Making the machine smaller would crush the spirit of the machine and cause it to wither and suffer. Such abuse of the Machine Spirit is not tolerable.

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Toofast wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
held aloft by gravitic drives the like of which are long lost to the Techpriests of the 41st Millenium.


They had no problem with gravitic drives for speeders, hover tanks, and all the other ridiculous crap the space marines have, but they can't find them for jetbikes? Literally just use 1 from a repulsor and make it smaller...


1st edition has suspensors (ripped straight out of Dune) that could be attached to any piece of equipment to make it weightless. If antigrav technology is now common place again,it’s a retcon of a retcon.
   
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