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Now, I'll admit I don't know the Necron FAQ or the codex all that well, but I'm not certain that my latest opponent was playing right. Can someone here give me an answer?

So in my latest game, my opponent was running Necrons with a bunch of flyers (four of them, in fact - three Night Scythes and a single Doom Scythe). He was also using Nemesor, who allows (if I recall his rule correctly) his army to deep strike anything in reserve during the opponent's turn in response to the opponent deep striking something else. In this case, I brought in two Drop Pods on turn one, and in response, the Necron player brought in all four of his flyers, deep striking them onto the battlefield. It ultimately cost me the game, simply because I focused a lot of fire on them on turn one instead of his wraith blob, which would wind up in close combat on every single one of my turns until the very end.

Some time after the game, long after we'd both left the store, I checked it out in the rulebook, and I don't see anything in there about Flyers being able to deep strike. Have I missed a line somewhere? I checked the rules under Flyers and couldn't find anything. Is there something in the Necron FAQ that allows it?

All things considered, I don't care that much (already taking first in this league cycle ) but still, it'd be nice to know if my opponent cheated me, either willfully or through his own ignorance.

Flyers don't have the deep strike rule univerally, but the necron flyers have it listed under their special rules.

Bah, is that so? Guess I didn't get screwed. My opponent was just way more savvy than me.

I though Nemesor could only bring on an equal number of units. If it is all reserved deepstrikers that is just ugly.

Sounds like he took you way downtown.

Necron Codex, Page 60 wrote:
... If Zahndrekh is on the battlefield, any number of units in reserve that are able to Deep Strike ...

Did he declare during deployment that he was going to deepstrike his flyers? If he did not then he did hose you.

reference: deep strike pg 36

With hte Nemsor's rule you don't have to declare that they are deep striking, the just have to be in reserve and able to deep strike to use his rule

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
With hte Nemsor's rule you don't have to declare that they are deep striking, the just have to be in reserve and able to deep strike to use his rule

I guess I always read that differently. I always read it that while scythes have the deepstrike rule they are not "able" to deepstrike if you did not declare it. Never even considered your possibility before (I don't use zandrekh). Just checked the FAQ, and I didnt see it answered there. I really can see either reading as valid.

So , we need to figure out what being able to deep strike is defined as; having the rule or being in deep strike reserve...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So , we need to figure out what being able to deep strike is defined as; having the rule or being in deep strike reserve...

It's pretty clear. Unless you declare that something is going to arrive from reserves by Deep Strike, then you may not deploy them using the rules for Deep Strike.

Nemesor rule says that "any number of units in reserves that are able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play..."

If you haven't declared that they are arriving from Reserves using Deep Strike then you are unable to Deep Strike them using Nemesors special rule.

It doesn't matter if a unit has the rule, you need to explicitly state you are going to use it. It's the same for Outflank in that you need to declare it when you deploy the unit in Reserves.

Tjolle79 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So , we need to figure out what being able to deep strike is defined as; having the rule or being in deep strike reserve...

It's pretty clear. Unless you declare that something is going to arrive from reserves by Deep Strike, then you may not deploy them using the rules for Deep Strike.

Nemesor rule says that "any number of units in reserves that are able to Deep Strike can choose to enter play..."

If you haven't declared that they are arriving from Reserves using Deep Strike then you are unable to Deep Strike them using Nemesors special rule.

It doesn't matter if a unit has the rule, you need to explicitly state you are going to use it. It's the same for Outflank in that you need to declare it when you deploy the unit in Reserves.

Apparently it's not that clear since I ( and many others) read it as simply being in reserve and having the deepstrike rule.

@ Tjolle79

Or is it?

Not saying you're wrong or anything, but the Deathmarks have a similar rule, exsplicitaly state that they have to be in 'Deep Strike Reserve', while Zahndrekh's rule states 'Reseve', indicating that they are different things...

And if you declare to deep strike, you enter 'Deep Strike Reserve'...

As stated earlier, not saying you're wrong, but just saying you need to keep an open mind, GW doesn't always write on the straigh and narrow line...

Pg 36 of the rulebook:

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all rnodels in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.When placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike reserve)."

All models must have the Deep Strike rule, they have to start in reserve, and you have to tell your opponent its arriving by Deep Strike from reserves. All criteria must be filled for them to "be able to Deep Strike"

Thus, a unit that has failed to meet them is therefore unable to enter play using Deep Strike.

The Deep Strike USR gives them permission to choose whether to deploy using the Deep Strike rules, or the regular Reserves rules.

If they choose not to DS, then they can't later choose to DS and must deploy using regular reserves.

Nemesor has the added wording that only units that are "able to Deep Strike" can choose to enter play.

To me, it's pretty clear that a unit that is "unable" to do something is not "Able" to do so

As for the Deathmarks special rule it tells us that you need to be in Deep Strike Reserves for them to choose to arrive sooner. How do you get into Deep Strike Reserves. You fill the above criteria at deployment and declare that you are going to DS them in over using the regular Reserves rule.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

As stated earlier, not saying you're wrong, but just saying you need to keep an open mind, GW doesn't always write on the straigh and narrow line...

GW writes like a 5 year old ham-fisting a 2 pound crayon.

-Matt

Tjolle79 wrote:
Pg 36 of the rulebook:

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve."

Notice that the sentence stops with a period (aka a full stop), ending the statement "In order for a unit to be able to deepstrike....". If there were a comma or semicolon then the list would continue with the instruction to inform your opponent as one of the list of requirements. Wording indicating a continuation of the idea would work too, such as "furthermore" or "also". None of those grammatical tools was used or indicated, so there are only two requirements for a unit to be able to deepstrike: having the rule and being placed in reserve. What follows after that is not more requirements but instructions on how to use the default deepstrike rules once a unit meets the requirements indicated to determine eligibility. Zandrekh's rule only checks for the ability to deepstrike, not assignation of intent, leaving some flexibility in how the controller deploys his reserves (either walking them on, outflanking if reserved in that manner, or deepstriking in response to his opponent).

So the checklist goes like this:

Scenario one: Placing a unit in reserves to deploy via deepstrike.

Is the unit able to deepstrike?

1. Do all the models in the unit have the Deepstrike rule? If yes, go to 2., if no, you may not deep strike this unit.
2. Will the unit start the game in reserve? If Yes go to 3, If no you may not deepstrike this unit.
3. The unit is able to deepstrike. Place it into reserve and inform your opponent that it will be deepstriking.

Scenario two: Using Zandrekh's ability to deepstrike a unit.

Is the unit able to deepstrike?

1. Do all the models in the unit have the Deepstrike rule? If yes, go to 2., if no, you may not deep strike this unit.
2. Is the unit in reserve? If yes go to 3, If no, you may not deepstrike this unit.
3. You may deepstrike this unit; deploy it on the table immediately.

First of all. He needs to say "Hey these units are arriving by DS, K buddy?" IF he doesn't ,then you can't do it. Because that is just how DS works. Does EVERY MODEL HAVE THE DEEP STRIKE RULE? Then nope? Then nope.

You got necron handled bro. Tough enough that their one of the strongest armies, but they also don't have the common sense that having 4 fliers come in on one fell swoop without having to roll for them is just "Okay." This doesn't even make sense in a balance perspective.

Hey look a necron player abusing his codex. HAVENT SEEN THAT BEFORE SHIGGY DIGGERRRO DOO.

Monasou wrote:
First of all. He needs to say "Hey these units are arriving by DS, K buddy?" IF he doesn't ,then you can't do it. Because that is just how DS works. Does EVERY MODEL HAVE THE DEEP STRIKE RULE? Then nope? Then nope.

You got necron handled bro. Tough enough that their one of the strongest armies, but they also don't have the common sense that having 4 fliers come in on one fell swoop without having to roll for them is just "Okay." This doesn't even make sense in a balance perspective.

Hey look a necron player abusing his codex. HAVENT SEEN THAT BEFORE SHIGGY DIGGERRRO DOO.

Seems to me like you've been on the receiving end of some troll-cron shenanigans before. Not all of us are d-bags, we just want to use units that have good rules and there are some very good Combos in the necron codex.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
With hte Nemsor's rule you don't have to declare that they are deep striking, the just have to be in reserve and able to deep strike to use his rule

No, they also have to arrive via deep strike.

Keep reading his rule, it's there.

And you can bring in your deep strikers when you opponent arrives from reserves at all, not just deep striking in.

Also, there's actually no such thing as "deep strike reserves", that's just a term but not an actual thing. You are either in reserves or you are not, and you declare to your opponent how your units are arriving from reserves.

@Monasou

It's not overly fair to tar all necron players with the same brush.

Yes there are power gamers out there who will play the latest power list. I think a couple of years ago they were being called "Grey Knight Players", now they're "Necron Players"

These are the people who will have all the best units of a given army, until an army is released that beats it, then they flood ebay with their "so-yesterday" army inordetr to fund a new shiny army.

mManwhile - those of us who put some effort into makign an army we LIKE (maybe we even have back storied for some of the ICs or make the lists appear more Fluffy rather then competative) get labelled as douche-bags.

I have had to stop playing my Necrons against one of my best friends because he can't get over the fact that necrons eat vehicles, a lot - and he can't get his head around the concept of countering by fielding a non-mech IG list.


/rant.


Sorry.

 Praxiss wrote:
@Monasou

It's not overly fair to tar all necron players with the same brush.

Yes there are power gamers out there who will play the latest power list. I think a couple of years ago they were being called "Grey Knight Players", now they're "Necron Players"

These are the people who will have all the best units of a given army, until an army is released that beats it, then they flood ebay with their "so-yesterday" army inordetr to fund a new shiny army.

mManwhile - those of us who put some effort into makign an army we LIKE (maybe we even have back storied for some of the ICs or make the lists appear more Fluffy rather then competative) get labelled as douche-bags.

I have had to stop playing my Necrons against one of my best friends because he can't get over the fact that necrons eat vehicles, a lot - and he can't get his head around the concept of countering by fielding a non-mech IG list.


/rant.


Sorry.

Nothing to be sorry about. A really good friend of mine plays necrons and he's one of the only people I've played against. And its horseshitt. I don't blame your friend for not wanting to play against you, because necrons are the basedgod LiL'B of Warhammer 40k. They're great at everything and there isn't a counter to them. There really isn't, except for MASS THINGS. If you have alot of everything you can almost win if he doesn't trace a line around you with a death ray and kill everything you own.
13 Armor All around with an inate 5+ For moving is horsegak on every vehicle. Sorry you have a broken race. Gives a whole new meaning to "Lonely at the top"

Monasou wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
@Monasou

It's not overly fair to tar all necron players with the same brush.

Yes there are power gamers out there who will play the latest power list. I think a couple of years ago they were being called "Grey Knight Players", now they're "Necron Players"

These are the people who will have all the best units of a given army, until an army is released that beats it, then they flood ebay with their "so-yesterday" army inordetr to fund a new shiny army.

mManwhile - those of us who put some effort into makign an army we LIKE (maybe we even have back storied for some of the ICs or make the lists appear more Fluffy rather then competative) get labelled as douche-bags.

I have had to stop playing my Necrons against one of my best friends because he can't get over the fact that necrons eat vehicles, a lot - and he can't get his head around the concept of countering by fielding a non-mech IG list.


/rant.


Sorry.

Nothing to be sorry about. A really good friend of mine plays necrons and he's one of the only people I've played against. And its horseshitt. I don't blame your friend for not wanting to play against you, because necrons are the basedgod LiL'B of Warhammer 40k. They're great at everything and there isn't a counter to them. There really isn't, except for MASS THINGS. If you have alot of everything you can almost win if he doesn't trace a line around you with a death ray and kill everything you own.
13 Armor All around with an inate 5+ For moving is horsegak on every vehicle. Sorry you have a broken race. Gives a whole new meaning to "Lonely at the top"

13/13/11 and only until the first pen. Pretty much every single vehicle except the monolith is 11/11/11 innately and most of those are open-topped to boot.

Nothing to be sorry about. A really good friend of mine plays necrons and he's one of the only people I've played against. And its horseshitt. I don't blame your friend for not wanting to play against you, because necrons are the basedgod LiL'B of Warhammer 40k. They're great at everything and there isn't a counter to them. There really isn't, except for MASS THINGS. If you have alot of everything you can almost win if he doesn't trace a line around you with a death ray and kill everything you own.
13 Armor All around with an inate 5+ For moving is horsegak on every vehicle. Sorry you have a broken race. Gives a whole new meaning to "Lonely at the top"

If hes playing Quantum Shielding at all the way around, you are getting shafted. It doesnt affect rear. Necron's are really no greater than any other race ATM.

Plus the planes aren't 13 as they don't have Quantum Shielding. Armor 11 Flyers aren't the hardest thing in the world to get rid of, even with the 5+ evade, though that can be annoying. Just remember if they evade and are a Doomscythe they cannot use their Death Ray for a turn.

Fragile wrote:

Nothing to be sorry about. A really good friend of mine plays necrons and he's one of the only people I've played against. And its horseshitt. I don't blame your friend for not wanting to play against you, because necrons are the basedgod LiL'B of Warhammer 40k. They're great at everything and there isn't a counter to them. There really isn't, except for MASS THINGS. If you have alot of everything you can almost win if he doesn't trace a line around you with a death ray and kill everything you own.
13 Armor All around with an inate 5+ For moving is horsegak on every vehicle. Sorry you have a broken race. Gives a whole new meaning to "Lonely at the top"

If hes playing Quantum Shielding at all the way around, you are getting shafted. It doesnt affect rear. Necron's are really no greater than any other race ATM.

True, they're just very versatile so you never know which type of necrons you're going up against.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So , we need to figure out what being able to deep strike is defined as; having the rule or being in deep strike reserve...

After seeing your post that does seem to be the question. I am fine with either interpretation. I would use the more restrictive interpretation myself to avoid potential rules issues at tournaments. I would also be fine with an opponent using the less restrictive version, since I do not now see a clear answer.

 neiltj1 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So , we need to figure out what being able to deep strike is defined as; having the rule or being in deep strike reserve...

After seeing your post that does seem to be the question. I am fine with either interpretation. I would use the more restrictive interpretation myself to avoid potential rules issues at tournaments. I would also be fine with an opponent using the less restrictive version, since I do not now see a clear answer.

It does not matter as you're required to enter via deep strike using Zahndrekh's rule or Ethereal Interception.

The rule is pretty obvious.

 sounddemon wrote:
The rule is pretty obvious.

What's not obvious is which side of the debate do you stand on?

I'm on the side that favors ds, regardless of deep strike reserves.