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At first I thought Chaplains and the like had been seriously nerfed by being forced to take Power Mauls... I mean seriously? They can't even ignore armour saves anymore? How lame is that? However, after a bit of play-testing with them, I've warmed up to them. Striking at initiative, and with +2S means that they're typically going to be wounding on a 2+ against MEQ, which should normally result in 2-3 wounds - whereas with a Power Sword you're possibly going to get 1 (or 2 if you're lucky). Plus, versus any other army but Marines, Power Mauls are absolutely murderous. I'm not about to replace all my swords and axes, but I'd just like to throw my hat in on the Power Maul support side.

I've been thinking about this form a slightly different point of view - force mauls or staffs.

The way I figure it, one of a psyker's biggest advantages is being able to autokill most enemy characters. To do that it doesn't actually matter how many wounds they do, as long as they do one. In addition, they want to do it before the enemy kills them... this effectively rules out force axes.

Of the two left, force swords ignore marines armour, but are useless against terminators, and are less effective against anything with a 4+ or worse. And the +2 strength of a force staff counteracts a lot of this too, wounding MEQs on 2+ - so as long as they fail just one save, they're still toast!

Overall a sword is only better against 3+ save models, and while it's best when you want to do as many wound as possible, I think that a force staff will do a single wound more reliably - which is all you need...

It also opens up the possibility of killing big nasties like wraithlords, something a force sword can't do at all on a S4 character.

Anyone else been thinking along the same lines?

i love using the black mace on my chaos lord WS6 Str6 is badass in challenges hitting on 3 wounding on 2 against MEQ is delightful combined with Mark of Slaanesh Int6 so WS6 Str6 Int6 with 5 attacks on the charge and as long as 1 wound goes unsaved that character strikes at WS1 im loving mauls so far

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
At first I thought Chaplains and the like had been seriously nerfed by being forced to take Power Mauls... I mean seriously? They can't even ignore armour saves anymore? How lame is that? However, after a bit of play-testing with them, I've warmed up to them. Striking at initiative, and with +2S means that they're typically going to be wounding on a 2+ against MEQ, which should normally result in 2-3 wounds - whereas with a Power Sword you're possibly going to get 1 (or 2 if you're lucky). Plus, versus any other army but Marines, Power Mauls are absolutely murderous. I'm not about to replace all my swords and axes, but I'd just like to throw my hat in on the Power Maul support side.

Then comes that 8 round challenge where your chaplain beats up a marine sergeant over 4 turns and never manages to kill him.
Rare, but irritated me >.> shouldn't have accepted the challenge.

I don't play any army that can access power mauls, but I once saw somebody use lemartes as a sneaky tank hunter. S7 on the charge with all of those attacks can really mess up rear armor.

Death company hunting armor with assault, the IG player laughed at the BA player, then he lost.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
i love using the black mace on my chaos lord WS6 Str6 is badass in challenges hitting on 3 wounding on 2 against MEQ is delightful combined with Mark of Slaanesh Int6 so WS6 Str6 Int6 with 5 attacks on the charge and as long as 1 wound goes unsaved that character strikes at WS1 im loving mauls so far

The Black mace is Str: User, so how are you bringing it up to Str 6? (Though it has Fleshbane, so wounding on a 2+ anyway)
By replacing the Combi-Bolter on my Chaos Terminator Lord, the Black Mace has a potential 11 Str4, AP4, Fleshbane attacks.

As for Power Maces: At the end of the day, a Power Maces +2 Str is great, for marines it makes them Str6, GEQ / various Eldar / etc, makes them Str5.
The AP4 stops 4+ / 5+ / 6+ saves, which outside of MEQ is fairly brutal.
For Eldar in general it's possibly the better option, as the Axes I1 is crippling, and the low Str isn't especially helpful with the swords AP3 - be the extra wounds from +2 Str? that's decent.

I actually wish my Grotesques Aberration would be able to take a Power weapon, because the +2 Str for Str7 +AP4 would be worth the 15pts. (Str8 on the charge and with Uriens boost (st9 on the charge with Urien), might even be worth taking Urien then ) Even competitive against the Venom blade (lose the rerolls, gain the AP4, and greater effectiveness against vehicles).

The only issue with Mauls is that the collective 40k meta (individual stores may vary) has a bias towards power armour, which as you said, the power maul is significantly worse than the power sword against. Even if all the armies had equal popularity, there would still be a bias towards Power Armour, as almost 2/3rds of the codexes (BA, BT, CSM, DA, GK, SM, SW, Sisters, Necrons, and Tau) all bring significant amounts of 3+ to the field (Note that Tau are included because Crisis Suits have a 3+ and are one of the few things in the codex that might not auto-fold against any sort of assault, no matter what power weapon you have equipped). Guard, DE, Eldar, Orks, Daemons and 'Nids are the only army which won't reliably field multiple high-priority targets with a 3+ or better. When you also consider that the armies with a lot of 3+ tend tend to be more popular right now (at least at a tournament level), you really start to see how valuable the power sword is.

I would like to add here, however, that I do consider the power maul to be a very valid choice. The bonus to strength and concussive make it good against multi-wound models, monstrous creatures, and both low and high save models. However, I personally feel that unless the balance of power (armour) changes in the 40k meta, the power maul will continue to play second fiddle to the power sword as the power weapon of choice on most models that aren't planning on going up against TEQ (where, to be honest, I'm unsure of how it compares to the Axe, largely just because of the fact that axes are unwieldy).

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
i love using the black mace on my chaos lord WS6 Str6 is badass in challenges hitting on 3 wounding on 2 against MEQ is delightful combined with Mark of Slaanesh Int6 so WS6 Str6 Int6 with 5 attacks on the charge and as long as 1 wound goes unsaved that character strikes at WS1 im loving mauls so far

Not really understanding the WS1 part of this, nor the 5 attacks, or how you got Str 6.
It's the black mace with the stat line and rules provided by the codex, not the black mace and power maul rules mashed by you.
Regardless even maces don't do diddly to WS

 Dr. Serling wrote:
I don't play any army that can access power mauls, but I once saw somebody use lemartes as a sneaky tank hunter. S7 on the charge with all of those attacks can really mess up rear armor.

Death company hunting armor with assault, the IG player laughed at the BA player, then he lost.

That's not true! I see you play Eldar (and apparently a significant amount of it)
The following Eldar units can take Power Weapons (and consequently, Power Mauls)
Autarch
Harlequin Troupe Master
Dire Avenger Exarch
Shining Spears Exarch
Swooping Hawks Exarch

Enjoy your power mauls!

I'm glad to see people are liking these as much as i am. i have had great luck with them especially against crons. mss don't make you murder yourself with no saves this way.
they insta kill t3 stuff like seers and warlocks so it is handy.
its nice and cheap way to get str 6 rather than the extra for the pf which against most things you wound on 2s anyways so you only really gain the ap but you lose your I.

i take em on wd in tda does the job.

haven't got my BRB with me its initiative concussive wrecks and i thought the Black mace ran by normal maul rules

Weapons that have their own profile, run using that profile.
Only generic Power Weapons modeled as a Power Maul (or those specifically listed as a Power Maul) use the Power Maul rules found in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.

Therefore, The Black Mace uses the profile for The Black Mace as found in the Chaos Space Marines codex (Str User, AP4, Melee, Cursed (that delicious Hex-Grenade effect), Daemonweapon, Fleshbane)

That said... I wonder if magnetising my Terminator Lord, and giving him the option of a Power Sword / Power Axe / Power Mace would be cool (Dual Wielding Maces!)

It's funny because IRL maces are the ideal weapon for cracking armor.

As another user mentioned, they're silly, on the basis that they don't fit within the overwhelmingly Power Armored meta supported by the vast number of Space Marine dexes out there (and 2 more on the horizon, Dark Angels and Black Templar). Dark Vengeance won't help your prospects. Leave the mauls at home.

Better yet, the only things that would really be affected by the Power Maul's AP value (Orks, Eldar, Deldar, Guard) don't even have that substantive of an armor save to negate in the first place. The whole point of negating a 3+ is that a 3up is a crippling layer of defense against attacks.

Ted is right, the funny bit is that such a weapon usually will have the force transmit through your armor right into your fragile fragile flesh and bone. No slicing necessary.

Don't most eldar guys have higher initiative than your guys anyway?

Lets say it's on a sarge attacking another power armored bro
Sword 3 x .5 x .5 = .75
Mace 3 x .5 x .83 x .33 = .43

Despite having an easier time wounding, you are still cutting that number into a third. It's rough man. I guess it has some utility against the backs of vehicles but lots of stuff does that.

TedNugent wrote:
It's funny because IRL maces are the ideal weapon for cracking armor.

As another user mentioned, they're silly, on the basis that they don't fit within the overwhelmingly Power Armored meta supported by the vast number of Space Marine dexes out there (and 2 more on the horizon, Dark Angels and Black Templar). Dark Vengeance won't help your prospects. Leave the mauls at home.

Better yet, the only things that would really be affected by the Power Maul's AP value (Orks, Eldar, Deldar, Guard) don't even have that substantive of an armor save to negate in the first place. The whole point of negating a 3+ is that a 3up is a crippling layer of defense against attacks.

Necron warriors and crypteks are 4+ saves. Those are two fairly important units to the necron army. Not to mention several of the HQ choices are 4+ saves as well.

Oh, and scarabs are 5+. Tomb blades are base 4+ as well with an upgrade to 3+ if taken. Flayed ones as well, though no one takes them.

Power Maul are still rather useful in their own right. Sure they are not quite so great at taking out marines. Against anything else they are great and really help when you want to take out most vehicles. Scoring four or more free hits on rear armor makes more armor die in my experience of running one on my ravenwing sergeant.

What are the chances that, if 6th shifts to a xenos-heavy meta, we start seeing Power Mauls as the go-to Power Weapon?

RegalPhantom wrote:
The only issue with Mauls is that the collective 40k meta (individual stores may vary) has a bias towards power armour, which as you said, the power maul is significantly worse than the power sword against. Even if all the armies had equal popularity, there would still be a bias towards Power Armour, as almost 2/3rds of the codexes (BA, BT, CSM, DA, GK, SM, SW, Sisters, Necrons, and Tau) all bring significant amounts of 3+ to the field (Note that Tau are included because Crisis Suits have a 3+ and are one of the few things in the codex that might not auto-fold against any sort of assault, no matter what power weapon you have equipped). Guard, DE, Eldar, Orks, Daemons and 'Nids are the only army which won't reliably field multiple high-priority targets with a 3+ or better. When you also consider that the armies with a lot of 3+ tend tend to be more popular right now (at least at a tournament level), you really start to see how valuable the power sword is.

I would like to add here, however, that I do consider the power maul to be a very valid choice. The bonus to strength and concussive make it good against multi-wound models, monstrous creatures, and both low and high save models. However, I personally feel that unless the balance of power (armour) changes in the 40k meta, the power maul will continue to play second fiddle to the power sword as the power weapon of choice on most models that aren't planning on going up against TEQ (where, to be honest, I'm unsure of how it compares to the Axe, largely just because of the fact that axes are unwieldy).

true
mauls are better than swords against everything but 3+ saves: 2+, 4+ 5+ and 6+ considering Str4 T4 or equal. They are also better against 3+ saves backed up by a 4++ and about the same against a 3+ backed up by a 5++.

When toughness rises above strength the maul gets better, when Strength gets better than toughness, the sword is better.

The concusive rule isnt so hot, as how many guys are striking after you but not striking at init1?

Force swords with Sanguine Sword.
...
Yeah.

I hated power mauls when I first saw that my BA Chaplains had traded their old power weapons for them. Then my wounded Lemartes jumped into a unit of Tyranid Warriors and punked out all 6 of them.

Now, I'm a big fan.

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Necron warriors and crypteks are 4+ saves. Those are two fairly important units to the necron army. Not to mention several of the HQ choices are 4+ saves as well.

Oh, and scarabs are 5+. Tomb blades are base 4+ as well with an upgrade to 3+ if taken. Flayed ones as well, though no one takes them.

I wish the Powermaul worked like the Power Lance, being AP3 on the charge. Maces were indeed used to crack armor but this is a magical world of 40k where anything can.. and cannot happen!

Mauls are impractical for the general meta. Most opponents you will face in CC either have invuls (e.g. demons, wyches), bad saves anyway (GEQ), or too good saves (MEQ and TEQ). So, the maul might just as well be AP-.

Under 6th, I see only two paths for most units - get AP3 and go first, or get AP2 and go last. Since MEQ is the most likely opponent, AP3 is the way to go if it has to be one or the other. If you can take both, e.g. on models with access to changing both arms, e.g. champions and HQ, the best combo is claw/fist. If you cannot, powersword seems better to me than the single claw, because you get an extra attack. With termis, I'd run a mix of dual claw and fists, with claw/fist on the champ.

I've been liking them, and hating them as I have a buddy that runs them in his SW army against my Orks, they really put the hurt on Nobz, Nob Bikers etc.

I was thinking about this one, can you elect to make a Relic blade into a Relic Maul? Not sure if it's entry specifies Sword or not, I thought that Calgar's Honor Guard get them and they are axes, so S+2+2 for a Relic Maul would be sweet, S8 init strike, you loose the attack, but that on a Captain would be sweet.

 More Dakka wrote:
I've been liking them, and hating them as I have a buddy that runs them in his SW army against my Orks, they really put the hurt on Nobz, Nob Bikers etc.

I was thinking about this one, can you elect to make a Relic blade into a Relic Maul? Not sure if it's entry specifies Sword or not, I thought that Calgar's Honor Guard get them and they are axes, so S+2+2 for a Relic Maul would be sweet, S8 init strike, you loose the attack, but that on a Captain would be sweet.

Nah a Relic blade is not a Power Weapon, it's a relic blade ^^

 Necrontyr40k wrote:
Mauls are impractical for the general meta. Most opponents you will face in CC either have invuls (e.g. demons, wyches), bad saves anyway (GEQ), or too good saves (MEQ and TEQ). So, the maul might just as well be AP-.

Under 6th, I see only two paths for most units - get AP3 and go first, or get AP2 and go last. Since MEQ is the most likely opponent, AP3 is the way to go if it has to be one or the other. If you can take both, e.g. on models with access to changing both arms, e.g. champions and HQ, the best combo is claw/fist. If you cannot, powersword seems better to me than the single claw, because you get an extra attack. With termis, I'd run a mix of dual claw and fists, with claw/fist on the champ.

As an MEQ, maybe (though the Maul will still have it's place - 'specially against walkers / vehicles and such) - though I certainly intend to primarily use a Power Maul on my CSM Termi Lord.(though all 3 options are magnetised in).

But as anything not MEQ... specifically things like the various flavours of Eldar, and even Guard - Str 3 is hitting T3 on 4+ and T4 on 5+. So yeah, the sword is AP3, but our strength is pants, and these weak units often rely on speed, meaning the Axe and I1 are crippling. So for these especially the +2 Str is great.

 Necrontyr40k wrote:
Mauls are impractical for the general meta. Most opponents you will face in CC either have invuls (e.g. demons, wyches), bad saves anyway (GEQ), or too good saves (MEQ and TEQ). So, the maul might just as well be AP-.

Under 6th, I see only two paths for most units - get AP3 and go first, or get AP2 and go last. Since MEQ is the most likely opponent, AP3 is the way to go if it has to be one or the other. If you can take both, e.g. on models with access to changing both arms, e.g. champions and HQ, the best combo is claw/fist. If you cannot, powersword seems better to me than the single claw, because you get an extra attack. With termis, I'd run a mix of dual claw and fists, with claw/fist on the champ.

mauls are not impractical, they are simply versitile. Power swords kill 3+ saves models with equal or lower toughness and no invuln best. Perhaps you face almost exclusively those models in your meta but I am betting there are some 2+ save models mixed in. A power sword is worthless against a 2+ save or a vehicle, you might as well use your bolt pistol in CC. It also isnt so hot against things with Toughness 2 higher than its strength like MCs. And while it is good against 4+ and 5+ saves, the maul is nearly twice as good against 4+ or worse saves. The maul also outperforms the sword when it comes to things with an invuln. Whether is be a bloodletter, a thousand sun, or a cyborknob, the maul is better than the sword against all of them.

Thus if you get the sword, you really have to make sure he gets into contact with guys with a 3+ save, similar toughness and no invuln. If you want to go after vehicles you have to spend more points on meltabombs, and for a character with 5-6 attacks even meltabombs arent nessisarily better than a power maul. No matter what you do, with a sword you are going to need to avoid 2+ saves like the plague. If you end up going against 2+ saves you will get punked. If you go up against 4+ or worse saves, you could be doing twice the damage with a maul. If you go up against things with an invuln, you could be doing nearly twice the damage with the maul.

The maul is the jack of all trades, the TAC choice. The sword is the tailored mass Meq choice.

 Exergy wrote:


The maul is the jack of all trades, the TAC choice. The sword is the tailored mass Meq choice.

This pretty much sums it all up. The only problem is that most metas, whether tourneys or just friendly play are more MEQ than anything else.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


The maul is the jack of all trades, the TAC choice. The sword is the tailored mass Meq choice.

This pretty much sums it all up. The only problem is that most metas, whether tourneys or just friendly play are more MEQ than anything else.

As I always roll 3s to wound, I'm converting to Mauls. At least for C:SM Still taking Power Axes on IG

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


The maul is the jack of all trades, the TAC choice. The sword is the tailored mass Meq choice.

This pretty much sums it all up. The only problem is that most metas, whether tourneys or just friendly play are more MEQ than anything else.

I agree the sword is good, as there are a lot of 3+ saves out there. I dont think it is true though that just because the guy is playing C:SM, BA, SW, CSM or what not that means he is meq and you should take the sword. There are a lot of things in marine codexes that are not Meq, which you need to remember. Now I know some people who like to foot spam as close to 100 meq bodies in 1850 as they can. The sword is a good choice there.

I think in a lot of books the lightning claw is better than the sword though even with less attacks.