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I'm new to the forum and i'm pretty sure they're was a lot of subject about the leman russ. BUT I want to know, which of all the leman russ you consider the best for competitive build and casual and why? Which one is the worst?

Competitive: LRBT and Demolisher
Casual: The rest

Lrbt is a versatile multitool. It's got the range and decent strength/AP

Demolisher is amazing. it instant-death's bikernobs, paladins, TWC, pops any vehicle that dares to come close, and is just generally intimidating. It's a fantastic deterrent for anyone thinking of coming close to a gunline.

The regular Leman Russ Battle tank is proably the most cost effective, with or without bolter sponsons, to taste.

The demolisher is good, but short ranged and expensive. The executioner is alright too, but also suffers from being expensive.

The vanquisher is supposed to be for dealing with vehicles (no blast), but now that blast templates have full strength even when the hole isn't over the target, they're less useful.

I've never used executioners myself, I think there are better sources of autocannons in the IG codex, but some people swear by them.

The worst variant in my opinion is the punisher. Supposedly for mowing down troops, but at BS3, 20 S5 Ap- shots aren't going to do a lot. And again, short ranged.

The splatcannon russes (LRBT and Demolisher) should never take sponsons after new FAQ but remain the ones with the best main guns.

The heavy-weapon russes got buffed by the new FAQ, allowing them to shoot more than god. (Ex. exterminator with sponsons can fire all guns while moving, as can a Punisher / Vanquisher / Executioner).

I'll start by linking to the last big russ discussion. We had.

Personally, my opinions have changed somewhat over the last month. I now thing fliers are better ignored than handled, and so am now much less likely to take punishers or exterminators than I once was.

To me, that leaves the demolisher as the only real option. The LRBT is still decent, but you might as well just take a basilisk now that its minimum range restrictions went away. The demolisher, on the other hand, is an actually different beast. There isn't a lot of S10 in the guard codex, and the demolisher's probably the best way to get it. As you no longer have to worry about stunlocking, it means you can actually advance and fire, as it was intended. Plus, with Ap2, you present a real threat to vehicles.

That said... again... artillery. Cheaper and better. It's always been the case where russes payed more for worse firepower in order to gain AV14, but in the case of the demolisher, its new shorter range and inability to shoot hull/sponson weapons actually matters now. What you gain seems flimsier now.

As for which russ is the worst, I'd say vanquisher. You're spending a LOT of points for what basically amounts to a single lascannon. At least the punisher got better (glancing vehicles to death), and so did the eradicator (more objectives means more scoring units. I'm seeing lots more camo cloak scouts than I did in 5th).

I'd disagree with Ailaros in that while the demolisher cannon is obviously the best cannon, it is hardly the best tank. You are short ranged 24", meaning so many of the fast, hard hitting units can move to charge range within 2 turns leaving you only one opportunity to shoot your Demo.

You can't hide a gun that short range and you have to hope that your opponent moves into its fire range.

The heavy weapon turret variants are the way to go. Punisher and Executioner can shoot from a distance and put out devastatingly large number of shots.

LRBT is solid but a basilisk is better for 25 points less and has barrage.

Vanquisher is a poor tank IMO, avoid it.

You can always bubble wrap demolishers, though. And without being able to be stunlocked, you're actually going to get to shoot as you go up the field. Plus, the demolisher is good against everything (well, everything but fliers), while the other tanks are only good against certain things.

Battlecannons are still very good, but they're not great. With only Ap3, they're basically stuck on glancing vehicles to death duty, which they don't necessarily do all that well for their points. Likewise, they're good for that pesky FNP, but they're not very good at all against terminators and another assorted mix of infantry units (everything the captain said plus ogryn and probably other stuff).

The strength of the battlecannon is that it always has the chance to damage something, but the drawback is that most of the potential targets are things that the battlecannon is, at best, so-so against. The demolisher, meanwhile, excels at nearly everything. Bring three of them and drive them forward 6" on turn 1 and starting turns 1 and 2, your opponent has a big problem pushing on their deployment zone.

Meanwhile, the LRBT is just going to be an up-armored missile launcher HWS except that's much worse against vehicles. It's something that's going to be safely out of sight, and out of mind, probably irrelevant to the outcome of the game other than what it kills in the first couple of turns. Unless your opponent has specific reason to fear it, they can probably ignore it.

S10 Ap2 large blast of doom with associated heavy flamer for blowing infantry off objectives getting all up in your deployment zone? Not so much. More likely to be killed? Perhaps, but I don't consider ignorability much of an advantage in this game.

Before the "heavy" nerd/mod I usually ran a mix of LRBT and LRD and I agree with Ailaros, the demolisher is a wonderful beast. If your opponent has gone up against a demo-wall before he will think twice and pour masses of firepower into bringing them down (saving the rest of your army), if he hasn't he will soon learn to fear them.
Str 10 Ap 2 will instagib those pesky thunder wolves that space puppies are so fond of and the fact that it has a rear armor of 11 you will need more than just a PW to break it letting you last *slightly* longer when you get up close and personal. Regardless a bubblewrap or screen is advisable.

However, I do think the classic LRBT has some uses, especially since it has a nice long range and slightly less scatter compared to artillery. When facing transports I'd use the superior range to pop them early and then drive the demolishers up and mop up while providing fire-support from the AP3 russes.

A problem I've noticed with the Basilisk is that clever opponents tend to deploy under building overhangs and other shielded locations making it difficult to get the barrage to connect.

Personal favorite is the LRBT as it has nice range and can deal with anything with power armor or worse and with strength 8 and the new rules for full strength on the entire large blast has improved it dealing with light armor, well atleast damaging it and not destroying it.

As everyone else has mentioned the demolisher is a nice all around killing machine but i personally don like the short range.

I tend to use the executioner here and there with plasma sponsons as 5 plasma small blast shots has seem to do me well against termies and hordes.

Tried the vanquisher and sadly it sucks, throw pask in it and it gets a little better but the points go up as well and your opponent will start to focus it.

Never really tried the exterminator as i dont really see the use for autocannons as my infantry squad usually have them.

Eradicator wouldnt be to bad at clearing objectives but as its ap4 and only strength 6 you wont be shooting much enemy armor and it wont do too much against power armor.

Ive tried the punisher but I find it best used if using pask and bolter sponsons as in one game it killed 2 demon princes, 1 in each turn. Not a fan of it tho to be really honest as if your going against infantry and with that short of range you will rather take a battle tank or demolisher.

Ya, you just can't go wrong with a Battle Cannon.

Demolishers do have the short range but are sturdier than Medusas and will keep your opponent from blindly rushing at you.

I seem to be the only one who Swears by a Vanquisher with Two Multimeltas and a Lascannon with Pask. Draws a lot of fire, but with wound allocation I just stick a base Vanquisher in his Squad a little bit in front if I think my opponent is gonna go Lascannon Heavy. *** Stick a Prymaris Psyker behind him and give him Prescience and that Squadron will be Blowing up a Land Raider a turn from a distance and Punishing everything the closer they get.*** Ignore this statement. I am an Idiot.

Pask also works in a Punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters and a Heavy Stubber, but not as well as I originally hoped for. Casually a good looking tank, but not something I would bring unless I knew I was playing against Orks or Nids.

Ya, never even thought of bringing an Exterminator, and now that is has been brought up it still doesn't settle anywhere in my brain... Maybe in the next codex.

Eradicator is good against Swarms and Scouts from Any Codex. But one of those things that are good to know you are playing against before you spend the points.

Executioner was better in 5th IMO but still a good Terminator Killer.

I am actually really enjoying the Leman Russ Executioner. I run plasma sponsons (For a really expensive tank), but I have 5 S 7 AP 2 small blasts at 36 inches. That tank has killed marines, terminators and even a Defiler,

Maybe not the best tank, but after the FAQ it is really up there.

Sorginak wrote:I seem to be the only one who Swears by a Vanquisher with Two Multimeltas and a Lascannon with Pask. Draws a lot of fire, but with wound allocation I just stick a base Vanquisher in his Squad a little bit in front if I think my opponent is gonna go Lascannon Heavy. Stick a Prymaris Psyker behind him and give him Prescience and that Squadron will be Blowing up a Land Raider a turn from a distance and Punishing everything the closer they get.

Primaris psykers can't take divination powers, thus you can't use prescience. Plus, a vanquisher, a las-MM vanquisher, pask, and a primaris psyker costs nearly 500 points.

500 points of worthlessness if your opponent DOESN'T bring land raiders.

 Sorginak wrote:
I seem to be the only one who Swears by a Vanquisher with Two Multimeltas and a Lascannon with Pask.

Oh god I'm dying.

Yes, you are. It's like a million points for a lascannon and an infinite range meltagun with AP2.

Oh, and multimeltas that will never shoot at anything.

Draws a lot of fire

From who????

I'd ignore it. In a 1500pt game, it will be so negligible, it's ridiculous, and thus I can just use my 1500 point list against your 1000 (hopefully) useful units.

 Ailaros wrote:

Sorginak wrote:I seem to be the only one who Swears by a Vanquisher with Two Multimeltas and a Lascannon with Pask. Draws a lot of fire, but with wound allocation I just stick a base Vanquisher in his Squad a little bit in front if I think my opponent is gonna go Lascannon Heavy. Stick a Prymaris Psyker behind him and give him Prescience and that Squadron will be Blowing up a Land Raider a turn from a distance and Punishing everything the closer they get.

Primaris psykers can't take divination powers, thus you can't use prescience. Plus, a vanquisher, a las-MM vanquisher, pask, and a primaris psyker costs nearly 500 points.

500 points of worthlessness if your opponent DOESN'T bring land raiders.

Woa, I can't believe I missed that. Ya, I take the Psyker thing back... Damn. did they change that from the 1.0 FAQ to 1.1?

Okay, first of all Points limit in a battle is completely separate than this topic is designed to encompass. Play your 1,500 point battles as I got tired of them after I'd been playing for two years and its only 1,999 and up (generally 3K) or I'm just messing around in a Games Workshop.

And look, before you go all Capitol letters I used Land Raider as an Example. I'll gladly pay the now 430 points to wipe all armor off the table as that Squadron gets more effective against Predators and Vindicators, Defilers, Wave Serpents, Ravengers... whatever your opponent likes to sit back and shoot with. Ya, it isn't for every list but I bring Pask more often than not because he'll almost always take out as much effectiveness as he is worth from my opponents regardless of the actual point ratio. Pask has the potential to wipe out most High-Power shooting Tanks before they destroy him (and in Apocalypse are even in range) and with them out of the way the rest of the List is generally free to act un-harassed.

You guys are free to laugh and get all condescending all you like but nothing penetrates armor better than Pask aside from a Vindicare Assasin. If you think something in a codex is broken, odds are you aren't using it in the correct combination/situation to maximize its effectiveness. I believe the people who write these Codexes generally know what they are doing and maybe it is just the people I play against but they have all learned that ignoring Pask is a bad idea unless they want to end the game with nothing that can penetrate my armor.

Maybe I play too many Apocalypse battles and that has shaded the way I look at things, but I gave my honest opinion on what I think is an effective unit as pertaining to the topic and only grows more so in Apocalypse which I stand by.

***Edit***
And yes, I realize this contradicts my previous statement about Exterminators so I guess I'm just not playing the opponents they are best against... probably Orks.

I wouldn't take Pask, I'd take CREED!
3x Demolishers and infiltrate forward up to 12" before the start of the game. Then, back away firing as the bubble wrap advances to intercept whatever survives the triple S10 AP2.

Seriously, CREED makes the 24" problem go away.


-Matt

That would explain your outlook a bit more. Taking that many points in a couple of vanquishers is insanity to most IG players, especially at normal points values. Sinking over a 1/4 of your points in your list for 2 leman russes with an anti tank weapon seems wasteful.

Also, IG pyskers could never take prescience. It's been that way since the day the book came out.

OT: Only one I'll fool with now is executioner with plasma sponsons. It's weapons annihilate pretty much anything but fliers.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I wouldn't take Pask, I'd take CREED!
3x Demolishers and infiltrate forward up to 12" before the start of the game. Then, back away firing as the bubble wrap advances to intercept whatever survives the triple S10 AP2.

Seriously, CREED makes the 24" problem go away.


-Matt

Woa. Ya, I need to spend a little more time and Money on IG. That is awesome.

***Edit***

After doing just that* (Blatant attempt to save face) I realized being BB with Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels does give you the ability to Prescience a Russ for 30 points more than I thought. I recognize my failing and will be sure to correct it.

Sorginak wrote:nothing penetrates armor better than Pask aside from a Vindicare Assasin.

Except for a medusa with bastion breacher shells.

Plus, it's not enough to talk about penetrating hits alone, if you want to talk about penetrating hits PER POINT, other stuff in the codex does it better. At the 3,000 point level, I'd much rather spend 500 points on 5 units of meltacide stormies than on a pair of vanquishers, for example.

I'm not sure I agree that the LRBT can be ignored. It forces MEQ to hide in cover or spread apart during advances, limiting their options in shooting and assault. It makes deepstrikers cry. I find it incredibly useful against Necrons, Orks, Eldar, and Nids. A little less against MEQ, but still very intimidating, especially if you have 3. I also like the Demolisher, a lot. What, really, is not to like.

Heavy Support for guard is always a tough decision. Tanks, artillery, AA, and don't forget the missile launcher. In a 1500 list I usually take a Manticore and 2 Russes, LRBT or Demolisher. More points I add a 3rd tank. At 2K I'll run a double FOC just to get the second Manticore.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Competitive: LRBT and Demolisher
Casual: The rest

I've never had a good game with the demolisher. I'm aware that's not an argument for its weakness, I could be using it wrong or just plain unlucky. I'm more concerned with its range and its ability to pull just about every LC or melta shot towards it. It can't benefit from an ADL since it has to get close to the enemy.

What about the executioner? I have fall in love with it. Points cost is worrying, and often I substitute it out for another LRBT and let my vets deal with 2+ armour.

 Ailaros wrote:

Sorginak wrote:nothing penetrates armor better than Pask aside from a Vindicare Assasin.

Except for a medusa with bastion breacher shells.

Plus, it's not enough to talk about penetrating hits alone, if you want to talk about penetrating hits PER POINT, other stuff in the codex does it better. At the 3,000 point level, I'd much rather spend 500 points on 5 units of meltacide stormies than on a pair of vanquishers, for example.

They do in 6th now don't they? hmm... I am gonna have to rethink my stance on Medusae maybe use a Librarian to give them prescience to enhance their accuracy because an average scatter of 4" will still put the blast off most vehicles and they were essentially BS 2 in 5th and too fragile to last, now I can see bringing them since they have hull points.

I'm not sure I can get myself to part with the Pask-Vindicare-2 Squads of Inquisitorial Psykers combo as they have kept my paladins Demolisher Cannoned free for some time now, but I'll concede I look at tactics much differently as I don't play small battles if I can avoid it and I prefer to dig in and shoot from afar and the fewer easy to kill points I have on the field the better. Maybe its because all my friends bring S-ton of Str 8 and I know from my Nid experience how many flamers can be brought to bare against your army at any place on the table by turn 2; so now I gladly spend the extra points for that added degree of resilience as even a Helldrake isn't much good against a Russ.

But still, bastion breacher shells... time to make a Forge World Order (Damn you GW, release a Medusa kit already!)

 Sorginak wrote:

They do in 6th now don't they? hmm... I am gonna have to rethink my stance on Medusae maybe use a Librarian to give them prescience to enhance their accuracy]

I don't understand why you would bring a Librarian to buff one artillery piece, when for 35 points more than a baby sitting librarian, you can get a whole extra Medusa. This is better than simply re-rolling hits: you can shoot more than one target, and your single artillery piece can't be taken out by a single shot. If you take into account you'd need to bring at least a 5man tax tactical squad, 80 points, you could get two Medusae and one Griffon (effectively giving your Medusa prescience) for 30 points more than the libby and tac squad which really won't do much.

Im not all too much of a fan of allies and i just say take more fire power! its what guard does best. I would stick with the LRBT or demolisher for competitiveness and maybe the executioner if your tactically good with it.

 Griddlelol wrote:
[I don't understand why you would bring a Librarian to buff one artillery piece, when for 35 points more than a baby sitting librarian, you can get a whole extra Medusa.

All I can think of is that you can't afford a second Medusa. Other than that, yeah, the only thing better than one Medusa is several of them.

I must say the demolisher is fantastic. The average opponent freaks out so much that they will dump unrealistic fire power at it to take the thing down. I have had opponents shoot at two in cover for two turns with all their heavy weapons and even an opponent out right give up (had to stop running them due to this) when I outflanked them with creed (BTW this is a really stupid use for them but the look on his face was priceless).
---They can be frustrating to use however as most opponents will go after them so hard you won't get to have as much fun actually firing them as other variants.

LRBT is great if you want an AV 14 wall for some artillery or have some reason to hang out in the outfield shooting all day.

Executioners are good but probably don't perform for their price. They are jaw dropping the second your opponent deep strike termies in and you wipe the unit out in one go. Also jaw dropping when you roll 4 1's in a single attack and glance it to death...Why oh god of dice!

Not alot of experience with the other ones but I can see the argument for each. They are all pretty niche though so balancing the list can be tricky.

Ailaros is correct that if you just want the dakka portion of it artillery is much much more cost effective. Basilisks are better dakka than LRBT in almost every way and are often times more survivable with good terrain/positioning.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
[I don't understand why you would bring a Librarian to buff one artillery piece, when for 35 points more than a baby sitting librarian, you can get a whole extra Medusa.

All I can think of is that you can't afford a second Medusa. Other than that, yeah, the only thing better than one Medusa is several of them.

I use my units like a surgen uses a scalpel. I don't want a second BS 2 tank. I want the shots I fire to hit and be assured they will. I'll gladly spend the points for an epostolary to beef up a "Squadron" of Medusa or Lemann Russ and Bastonne's unit at the same time so I can combine re-rolling my hits with an order. When I shoot at something, it dies. I don't waste ammunition from other vehicles or units to finish the job the first shot should have done properly. Ya, I don't get as many shots a turn but they hit every time to devastating effect.

I've always thought of a Lemann Russ as the ultimate scalpel since you can have three of them in a unit if you need. Turn 1: cut out your opponent's heart, turn two take his/her legs out from under them. Then just lean on them until they fall flat or have nothing left that can hurt you.

...and why would you only bring a a half tactical squad when you bring allies? Ever thought of putting TH/SS Termies in front of your Guard in front of your weaker tanks or marching up the field towards your opponent's objectives while you pound them into dust from afar.. Or adding a fast Vindicator to your IG List?

"The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable."
-Sun Tzu

 Sorginak wrote:
I don't want a second BS 2 tank.

BS 2 is just false and you know it.

I've always thought of a Lemann Russ as the ultimate scalpel

A scalpel with a a 5" blast.

...and why would you only bring a a half tactical squad when you bring allies? Ever thought of putting TH/SS Termies in front of your Guard in front of your weaker tanks or marching up the field towards your opponent's objectives while you pound them into dust from afar.. Or adding a fast Vindicator to your IG List?

Not the options you have propose here, because they're sub-optimal, but yes of course I've considered allies. The point is you have to take the 5 man tac squad or scout squad to have any decent space marine units. When you start to bring in the allies tax those other expensive options become even more so and thus you're more likely to find something in the guard codex that can do the same job for cheaper.

"The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable."
-Sun Tzu

lol! Adorable.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:
I don't want a second BS 2 tank.

BS 2 is just false and you know it.

I've always thought of a Lemann Russ as the ultimate scalpel

A scalpel with a a 5" blast.

...and why would you only bring a a half tactical squad when you bring allies? Ever thought of putting TH/SS Termies in front of your Guard in front of your weaker tanks or marching up the field towards your opponent's objectives while you pound them into dust from afar.. Or adding a fast Vindicator to your IG List?

Not the options you have propose here, because they're sub-optimal, but yes of course I've considered allies. The point is you have to take the 5 man tac squad or scout squad to have any decent space marine units. When you start to bring in the allies tax those other expensive options become even more so and thus you're more likely to find something in the guard codex that can do the same job for cheaper.

"The art of war teaches us to rely not on the likelihood of the enemy's not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable."
-Sun Tzu

lol! Adorable.

5" Blast becomes a Scalpel when you can shoot it two inches away from your units and not fear it. But we are clearly at an impasse and your attitude toward Sun Tzu clearly reflects the open-mindedness of your tactics and abilities as a General on the field. Try reading that book some time, you might learn something of humility and tactical awareness.

But this has gotten way off topic. If I failed to make an argument for the effectiveness of Pask and Vanquishers then I guess the failing is mine and I'm done arguing about it as I know how well they can be implemented and I leave it to those of you who wish to try it out at a GW when you have a free minute and worst case scenario you take a loss in a meaningless battle; best case scenario you unlock more tactics that you were previously un-aware of. I thought that was what this board was for... clearly I was wrong.

All I'm going to say on this is that trying to be precise and accurate with IG is like trying to use a chainsaw for brain surgery. Sure, I'm sure it'll work somewhat, but I'd much rather use a scalpel instead.

We're not crack shots, and we're not elite in the slightest. We get around this by taking multiple units to perform a job. hence why everyone is saying "why wouldt you just buy a second medusa?" 2 medusas is twice as survivable as 1 medusa and a librarian. 2 medusas have twice the firepower as a medusa and a librarian. Yes, your rerolling medusa has got a high hit rate, but so do I by just firing twice as many shots. Then throw in the fact that i won't have to buy allies to up my hit rate, and I'm increasing my likelihood to succeed by having double the amount of medusas you have. What I mean is that if I loose one, big whoop, the second can still kill things. If you lose your medusa, that's a big deal. Because last I checked librarians can't chuck a 48" S10 Ap 1 melta template every turn. and that's with my two medusas in the same squadron. If I have them seperate, I can make mine even more effective since if the first one kills the target, I can shoot the second one at another target and do possibly even more damage.

Plus, this is the Guard. Danger close is just how we roll. We're the Sledgehammer of the Emperor, not the scalpel. Sun Tzu tactics don't work very well for us, trust me, I've tried. But when i started reading about how the Russian army of WWII defeated the germans, one of the most powerful armies of their time, and applied what I learned from that, I did far better.

Remember kids, quantity has a quality all its own.

According to Brannigan's Big Book of War:

"Always be prepared to send wave after wave of your own men into rampaging killbots."