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Mark of Tzeentch or Mark of Nurgle, which is the best one to give these guys to make them more survivable? Looking for personal experience and mathhammer...

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Mark of Tzeentch or Mark of Nurgle, which is the best one to give these guys to make them more survivable? Looking for personal experience and mathhammer...

I'd say MoN, Really makes small arms fire almost wasted against them. That and for obvious ID reasons.

Considering you can give them the MOT by standing them behind something it isn't exactly a tough decison.

Kevlar wrote:
Considering you can give them the MOT by standing them behind something it isn't exactly a tough decison.

Well that work for Obliterators, but what about mutilators?

T5 for instant death is nice, however most of the problems for that unit are going to be from plasmaguns which dont care about the toughness. So it is a trade off, do you expect to take a lot of melta in the face? then nurgle, if not then tzeench.

Personally I think that having to take at least two wounds most of the time is a much better boost, as well as reduction in small arms fire(which the invul wont make a difference)

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Considering you can give them the MOT by standing them behind something it isn't exactly a tough decison.

Well that work for Obliterators, but what about mutilators?

Mutilators are terrible anyway.

Irdiumstern wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Considering you can give them the MOT by standing them behind something it isn't exactly a tough decison.

Well that work for Obliterators, but what about mutilators?

Mutilators are terrible anyway.

That pretty much sums it up.

I'd go MoN, although probably just as important is VotLW otherwise you'll likely be running away. LD 8 and not fearless really hurt oblits.

Slannesh.

Ok, jokes aside, MoN. I have never seen oblits out of cover, ever. Even with most cover being a 5+, boosting your invul save by 1 is meh compared to T5. Ignoring 2+ saves is harder these days, so the invul is less critical in assault. Better toughness protects against everything.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Slannesh.

Ok, jokes aside, MoN. I have never seen oblits out of cover, ever. Even with most cover being a 5+, boosting your invul save by 1 is meh compared to T5. Ignoring 2+ saves is harder these days, so the invul is less critical in assault. Better toughness protects against everything.

On the flipside, my Oblits are always in lascannon/plasmacannon range, so most of the stuff thrown at them requires an invuln save. Toughness 5 is fine for small arms fire, but I tend to find that my Oblits don't really deal with that as much as they deal with lascannons etc, where the 4+ is probably the better investment.

The toughness 5 is even more important in those situations to prevent instant death.

I am looking into mutilators as a cheap distraction unit that I deep strike in 1-3 units of 1 as distractions units. for 61 points they are not bad in this role, especially if they arrive around the same time as the rest of the army in a aggresive themed force.

Well, it really depends on what you expect the Obliterators to have to go against.

If you're seeing lots of plasma and fewer melta/las weapons, go Tzeentch, as Nurgle won't help; if you're seeing lots of melta/las and fewer plasma weapons and strength 10 attacks, Nurgle's your best bet.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Mark of Tzeentch or Mark of Nurgle, which is the best one to give these guys to make them more survivable?

The one that matches your army's fluff is the correct answer.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Looking for personal experience and mathhammer...

9 times out of 10, Nurgle. If facing a plasma heavy army, then Tzeentch. Khorne and Slaanesh are right out for obvious reasons.

nurgle gives more benefits, because it protects against small arms and it protects against all strength 8 shots and cc swings that deny your armor save. A 4++ save is not something you can rely on, anyway. if you are being shot in the face by plasma chances are there are a lot of bolter shots too, you are probably going down.

Nurgle, only because they are mutli-wound models.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Considering you can give them the MOT by standing them behind something it isn't exactly a tough decison.

Well that work for Obliterators, but what about mutilators?

mutilators should have a mark that keeps them on your shelf and off the tabletop. They are comically bad units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Mark of Tzeentch or Mark of Nurgle, which is the best one to give these guys to make them more survivable? Looking for personal experience and mathhammer...

for most people MoN is better as it prevents ID. It wont make you any more surviable against plasma, but small arms and lascannons it will make you last twice as long.

MoT helps you against anything that ignores your save. Plasma, lascannons, power fists/axes/klaws but only by a third.

Thanks for the advice, looks like its MoN all the way then. And are mutilators really that bad? They seem to at least be a very good distraction unit, especially if you deep strike them right...

My three questions back at you F_S would be:

What do mutilators do that terminators don't/can't?

What do terminators do that mutilators don't/can't?

What's the point difference and model count difference between them?

Their pure assault unit. It takes till 3rd turn before they can hope to assault a single unit and by then something has 2 turns to use some form a ap2/1 weapon to kill it. You can't assault in the turn you arrive anymore.

Now tack on terminator armor so no running and no sweeping advances and you have a crappy terminator.

They aren't actually Terminators - they're daemons with Fleshmetal.
It's the slow and purposeful that stops the running and sweeping, it's that same thing.

They look bad on paper, and the GW provided models are terrible...
HOWEVER, I'm building a few anyway because I can, and will try them out - who knows, maybe they'll be good! (I doubt it, but you never know.)

 kronk wrote:
My three questions back at you F_S would be:

What do mutilators do that terminators don't/can't?
Deep Strike.
What do terminators do that mutilators don't/can't?
Shoot, take a transport.
What's the point difference and model count difference between them?
Mutilators are 1-3, Termis 3-10. 1 Mutilator is slightly cheaper than 2 Terminators.

 Ovion wrote:
They aren't actually Terminators - they're daemons with Fleshmetal.
It's the slow and purposeful that stops the running and sweeping, it's that same thing.

 kronk wrote:
My three questions back at you F_S would be:
What do mutilators do that terminators don't/can't?
Deep Strike.
What do terminators do that mutilators don't/can't?
Shoot, take a transport.
What's the point difference and model count difference between them?
Mutilators are 1-3, Termis 3-10. 1 Mutilator is slightly cheaper than 2 Terminators.

Terminators can deep strike(chaos and all loyalists can save SW)

mutilators can choose to have whatever weapon they want. They can have a pair of lightning claws against 3+ saves dudes or they can have all chainfists against tanks. Sadly having to choose a different weapon each time will mean you area going to be suboptimal every other turn, and you cant change targets like oblitorators.

Mutilators can get wounded, you can imagine taking 3 wounds and still having the same number of attacks. Takes some skill and luck to do though.
Mutilators are more resistant to blasts and flame weapons, more wounds per model.
Mutialtors are slightly cheaper per wound and Mark
More mutilators fit in a landraider

Termitors can shoot
Terminators have more attacks per point (20%)
Terminators can take icons(fearless or FNP)
Terminators can be speced to take on whatever, and can use their weapons every turn.
Terminators have a champion to take challenges.

On the surface, it looks like it would be a good idea to run your terminator lord with 3 mutilators in the small chaos land raider, you get more wounds and attacks into the box. But the lack of a champion really kills this plan, whatever you charge will simply challenge the lord can take him out of the combat that your mutes cant win alone. Also mutes would really limit what mark the termite lord could be.

There has been some discussion of running one naked or MoN mutilator for ~60 points and DSing him into the backfield. If he doesnt scatter far(BIG IF) then your opponent probably has to spend considerable effort to move away from him, shoot him, or tarpit him. Of course he might not come in till turn 4, and he needs to DS within 13" of a lot of things to be a threat and that can be hard.

 BunkerBob wrote:

Now tack on terminator armor so no running

Terminators can run just fine. They usually do after you blow the combi weapons. Especially if you are chasing a tank with your chain fist.

RPlasma math hammer

Tzeentch 5/6 wound 1/2 fail invo=every hit has 5/12 or to cause a wound.

Nurgle 5/6 wound 2/3 fail invo=every hit has 10/18 or 5/9 to cause a wound.

Don't think it's enough once lascannons, lances, and small arms are taken into account

 schadenfreude wrote:
RPlasma math hammer

Tzeentch 5/6 wound 1/2 fail invo=every hit has 5/12 or to cause a wound.

Nurgle 5/6 wound 2/3 fail invo=every hit has 10/18 or 5/9 to cause a wound.

Don't think it's enough once lascannons, lances, and small arms are taken into account

Difference is zero for plasma if they are behind a wall or ruin. And much nicer for everything else. These guys are long range heavy support. It shouldn't be too hard to get them some cover. Hell I totally block LOS to mine with a rhino, then move the rhino out of the way so they can shoot.

plasma is a bad example it is the exact strength where MON nurgle does not help, because still wounds on twos and no instant death. Every other strength gun(short of 10) will be better for MON. I guess it is a matter of do you see more strength 3-6,8,9 guns or do you see more str 7/10 guns

 schadenfreude wrote:
RPlasma math hammer

Tzeentch 5/6 wound 1/2 fail invo=every hit has 5/12 or to cause a wound.

Nurgle 5/6 wound 2/3 fail invo=every hit has 10/18 or 5/9 to cause a wound.

Don't think it's enough once lascannons, lances, and small arms are taken into account

Its not just plasma
so yes tzeench are 33% more survivable against plasma than nurgly ones. You know what else the tzeench ones are better at? Demolisher Cannons, Medusas, newcron death rays.

But lascannons and lances, nurgle is only 50% more survivable against those. They take wounds more often, but need to take 2 before they die.

 Exergy wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
RPlasma math hammer

Tzeentch 5/6 wound 1/2 fail invo=every hit has 5/12 or to cause a wound.

Nurgle 5/6 wound 2/3 fail invo=every hit has 10/18 or 5/9 to cause a wound.

Don't think it's enough once lascannons, lances, and small arms are taken into account

Its not just plasma
so yes tzeench are 33% more survivable against plasma than nurgly ones. You know what else the tzeench ones are better at? Demolisher Cannons, Medusas, newcron death rays.

But lascannons and lances, nurgle is only 50% more survivable against those. They take wounds more often, but need to take 2 before they die.

Tzeentch is better against plasma, demolisher cannons, medusa, and necron death rays.

Nurgle is better against flashlights, bolters, all other small arms, melta, krak, battle cannons, particle whips, lances, pulseteks, demo charges, gauss weapons, tesla carbines, flamers, heavy flamers, multi lasers, griffons, thunderfire cannons, and a partridge in a pear tree.

I guess rail guns can go to Tzeentch, but then s6 tau plasma rifles are affected by t5 and pulse rifles are really effected by t5.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
RPlasma math hammer

Tzeentch 5/6 wound 1/2 fail invo=every hit has 5/12 or to cause a wound.

Nurgle 5/6 wound 2/3 fail invo=every hit has 10/18 or 5/9 to cause a wound.

Don't think it's enough once lascannons, lances, and small arms are taken into account

Its not just plasma
so yes tzeench are 33% more survivable against plasma than nurgly ones. You know what else the tzeench ones are better at? Demolisher Cannons, Medusas, newcron death rays.

But lascannons and lances, nurgle is only 50% more survivable against those. They take wounds more often, but need to take 2 before they die.

Tzeentch is better against plasma, demolisher cannons, medusa, and necron death rays.

Nurgle is better against flashlights, bolters, all other small arms, melta, krak, battle cannons, particle whips, lances, pulseteks, demo charges, gauss weapons, tesla carbines, flamers, heavy flamers, multi lasers, griffons, thunderfire cannons, and a partridge in a pear tree.

I guess rail guns can go to Tzeentch, but then s6 tau plasma rifles are affected by t5 and pulse rifles are really effected by t5.

Who fires krak, flamers, griffons at oblitorators?

I agree, nurgle is better, but there are cases when tzeench is better. That being plasma and str10 heavy environment.

Mutilators are the most wounds/attacks with +2 you can fit in a chaos land raider. This also means you can fit HQs in there with them. It's a neat idea that costs an awful lot.

 Lucre wrote:
Mutilators are the most wounds/attacks with +2 you can fit in a chaos land raider. This also means you can fit HQs in there with them. It's a neat idea that costs an awful lot.

 Exergy wrote:

On the surface, it looks like it would be a good idea to run your terminator lord with 3 mutilators in the small chaos land raider, you get more wounds and attacks into the box. But the lack of a champion really kills this plan, whatever you charge will simply challenge the lord can take him out of the combat that your mutes cant win alone. Also mutes would really limit what mark the termite lord could be.

cost too much, isnt that effective either. It could work with a nurgle terminator lord, but as I said the lack of a champion really stings

You can fit 2 hqs in the squad with them in the raider. You won't find a scarier chaos Death Star.

Why do you think mutilators cost too much? How much do terminators usually cost? If you are only trying to ram them forward in a raider they are about as good as any other stupid landraider star. Probz beat up a lot of crap with aby/kharn or aby/khorne axe lord.