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A brief run through of what happened.

Were guessing, they had been on the property before as they had visited us to buy budgies (we breed and sell them as a bit of a hobby)
A friend who sells them as well was robbed a few weeks before and had some petty cash stolen.

went to the garage (were we store our motorbikes) one morning to go to work and found the door hinges had been un-drilled from the wall. We don't lock the bikes up at night and sometimes the keys are left in them.

The breeding building had also been broken into and some petty cash had been stolen from in there.

Now none of the bikes had been stolen (THANK GOD!) but the sheets were off and all the cabinets were open exposing bike gear and power tools, but nothing had been stolen except the petty cash from the breeding building. This was a little worrying as we don't know if they may come back or if they were disturbed half way through causing them to run off, or whether they were just opportunistic.

Now its been a week and we still haven't noticed anything else missing.

We live on a main road in a rural area, we now have more security lighting and some of them are hooked up to alarms, as well as most of the outside buildings are locked up like fort knox!

so after that my question is, how can I protect my property, and myself if i catch them in the act?
I have looked over the "laws of the land" and found they have changed so I no longer have to wait for them to "threaten to kill my family" before I can do anything about it, which is well over due.

So...
(calling the police first, obviously)

Should I go outside?
Can I threaten them? ("You have 10 seconds to leave or I open fire") (with an air rifle)
Can I shoot them? does this count as reasonable force?
Should I wait for the police?
Should I try to contain/capture them, if its safe to do so?
Should I try to scare them up by firing up my air raid siren? Yes I do own one and it is great fun!

I know this may not be the best place to get an opinion but its worth a shot.
Thanks
spanner4000

From what I've read in the media, doing anything other than inviting the burglar in, offering him a cup of tea and then sending him on his way while apologising for interrupting his line of work will get you arrested. ¬¬

 spanner4000 wrote:
A brief run through of what happened.

Were guessing, they had been on the property before as they had visited us to buy budgies (we breed and sell them as a bit of a hobby)
A friend who sells them as well was robbed a few weeks before and had some petty cash stolen.

went to the garage (were we store our motorbikes) one morning to go to work and found the door hinges had been un-drilled from the wall. We don't lock the bikes up at night and sometimes the keys are left in them.

The breeding building had also been broken into and some petty cash had been stolen from in there.

Now none of the bikes had been stolen (THANK GOD!) but the sheets were off and all the cabinets were open exposing bike gear and power tools, but nothing had been stolen except the petty cash from the breeding building. This was a little worrying as we don't know if they may come back or if they were disturbed half way through causing them to run off, or whether they were just opportunistic.

Now its been a week and we still haven't noticed anything else missing.

We live on a main road in a rural area, we now have more security lighting and some of them are hooked up to alarms, as well as most of the outside buildings are locked up like fort knox!

so after that my question is, how can I protect my property, and myself if i catch them in the act?
I have looked over the "laws of the land" and found they have changed so I no longer have to wait for them to "threaten to kill my family" before I can do anything about it, which is well over due.

So...
(calling the police first, obviously)

Should I go outside?
Can I threaten them? ("You have 10 seconds to leave or I open fire") (with an air rifle)
Can I shoot them? does this count as reasonable force?
Should I wait for the police?
Should I try to contain/capture them, if its safe to do so?
Should I try to scare them up by firing up my air raid siren? Yes I do own one and it is great fun!

I know this may not be the best place to get an opinion but its worth a shot.
Thanks
spanner4000

You need to look up the laws in your local jurisdiction and not rely on the internet for this.

 Valkyrie wrote:
From what I've read in the media, doing anything other than inviting the burglar in, offering him a cup of tea and then sending him on his way while apologising for interrupting his line of work will get you arrested. ¬¬

That's not true at all, just Daily Mail propaganda. I'll quote a legal expert the BBC asked:

'In England and Wales, anyone can use "reasonable" force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime. Householders are protected from prosecution as long as they act "honestly and instinctively" in the heat of the moment. "Fine judgements" over the level of force used are not expected, says the Crown Prosecution Service.

What this means in practice is that someone can claim they attacked in self-defence if they genuinely believed they were in peril - even if in hindsight they were clearly wrong.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19886504

You may be arrested if you do end up doing something like this. That's because it's not the job of the police to decide whether you were right in doing what you did, certainly if you actually cause harm to someone. It's up to the courts to decide, although police can use their discretion if it's something relatively minor.

 spanner4000 wrote:

Should I go outside?
Can I threaten them? ("You have 10 seconds to leave or I open fire") (with an air rifle)
Can I shoot them? does this count as reasonable force?
Should I wait for the police?
Should I try to contain/capture them, if its safe to do so?
Should I try to scare them up by firing up my air raid siren? Yes I do own one and it is great fun!

If they are not a threat to you do not start waving guns around.

If no-one is at risk leave them alone, call the police, film it or take pictures if you can do safely. By all means fire up your air raid siren as long as you are safe. Bonus points for getting them to literally gak themselves. They will probably run away. If stuff gets stolen that is what insurance is for.

For the bikes get ground anchors and make it as difficult as possible for them to swipe them.

If you are, or feel you are, at risk you may well be able to claim self defense for use of a air rifle. If they are braking in to your garage you can't really claim you were at risk.

The idea you can't do anything is nonsense, but it is just not worth the risk unless they are a direct threat to you.

It all comes down to perhaps the most awful word in the British legal system 'Reasonable'...

You are allowed to use 'Reasonable Force' to protect your person, even if you just feel under threat. So for example you could argue that someone breaking in put you in fear of your safety, and as such using force was 'reasonable' to protect yourself. However the same can be said for the intruder, for example if you start waving an air rifle at him, in that situation could him attacking you seem 'Reasonable' to protect his person? probably... And if you shoot at them, or shoot them unless they where literally about to do you serious harm then you probably find yourself in serious trouble, look at Tony Martin for that one.

So just remember even though they may be trespassing they have the same rights to self defense as you.

Now everything relies on the CPS choosing to bring charges, if you give an intruder a slap they are unlikely to, however even in that case if the intruder does want to pursue charges the CPS will have no option but to pursue the case, however this rarely happens as the CPS will make it clear to the intruder that it will look good in mitigation for his own offenses if he does not keep the charges against you.

Even if the CPS pursue the charges they are unlikely to result in a conviction, however you probably don't need the stress and cost of court.

But as you can probably already see there are already a lot of 'what ifs' here...

Certainly never detain someone yourself, certain people will claim that you have the 'right' to do so and even make a citizens arrest, but its very murky waters legally, and again you could end up in some serious mud. After all look at a PCSO, they wear a uniform and are part of the police but even they do not have the right to detain with force, in fact they are only able to detain you without force for 20 minutes, So to decide you have the powers to do it as part of the public... well its murky at best. I have even seen bouncers prosecuted over this for holding down violent drunks till the police arrive.

So my advice, keep yourself and yours safe, ring the police (though i live in a rural area so understand how crap this can be) and accept you have insurance. Though actually the air raid siren is not actually a bad idea really, most people can be easily scared off.

You can only use force, and the threat of force, if you or another person is at imminent threat of physical harm. You can not use force if there is a threat to property/pets/livestock or if there is no immediate threat to humans. You can also only use appropriate force, generally at the same level as you feel that you are threatened with.

Using an air rifle for self defense is a last resort, it will do nothing but annoy any attackers and if you use it too liberally you could well end up facing criminal charges.

Basically secure your stuff and if you see something getting stolen take as many pictures (or ideally video) of the perpetrators as you can but don't try and be a hero.

Use visible warnings such as a burglar alarm - even if it's just a fake one. Put up beware the dog signs regardless of whether you own one. Beefing up garage/shed security is also advisable as their contents can be used to assist entry to the main building.
Everything about your property should be made unappealing to a possible intruder, if they think your house will be a hassle then the chances are they'll just move on to a softer target.

 RossDas wrote:
Use visible warnings such as a burglar alarm - even if it's just a fake one. Put up beware the dog signs regardless of whether you own one. Beefing up garage/shed security is also advisable as their contents can be used to assist entry to the main building.
Everything about your property should be made unappealing to a possible intruder, if they think your house will be a hassle then the chances are they'll just move on to a softer target.

Spoken perfectly. If you take anything from the internet, let it be this.


Also the reason why I didn't move to the UK when I had the chance

You shouldn't shoot them, because it shows you've taken up a weapon to deliberately harm them. If you grabbed a kitchen knife during the struggle, that would be ok depending on how you used it. But you can't chase them outside and attack them, you can't stab them in the back or attack them while prone on the floor. 'Reasonable' is a difficult thing to define, but as long as you argue you felt under threat and were defending yourself, you are ok unless the amount if force you use is grossly disproportionate.

Much as certain parts of the press try to talk up the chances of being prosecuted for defending yourself, look at the high profile examples. Tony Martin who shot two people fleeing his property (which isn't even legal in the US). Or that other case where the burgled homeowner got his mates to chase the burglars down the street and beat them senseless with metal rods, golf clubs I think. And he was still barely punished anyway.

 RossDas wrote:
Use visible warnings such as a burglar alarm - even if it's just a fake one. Put up beware the dog signs regardless of whether you own one. Beefing up garage/shed security is also advisable as their contents can be used to assist entry to the main building.
Everything about your property should be made unappealing to a possible intruder, if they think your house will be a hassle then the chances are they'll just move on to a softer target.

This seems like the best possible advice in the thread so far given what I know about the UK's self defense type issues.

I'm glad I live in a nation with civilized standards of the right to self defense and to defend one's property.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 RossDas wrote:
Use visible warnings such as a burglar alarm - even if it's just a fake one. Put up beware the dog signs regardless of whether you own one. Beefing up garage/shed security is also advisable as their contents can be used to assist entry to the main building.
Everything about your property should be made unappealing to a possible intruder, if they think your house will be a hassle then the chances are they'll just move on to a softer target.

This seems like the best possible advice in the thread so far given what I know about the UK's self defense type issues.

I'm glad I live in a nation with civilized standards of the right to self defense and to defend one's property.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

"For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings..."

In the UK we are civilized enough to put life above property and think that better off stuff being stolen than an innocent person be killed.

Steve steveson wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 RossDas wrote:
Use visible warnings such as a burglar alarm - even if it's just a fake one. Put up beware the dog signs regardless of whether you own one. Beefing up garage/shed security is also advisable as their contents can be used to assist entry to the main building.
Everything about your property should be made unappealing to a possible intruder, if they think your house will be a hassle then the chances are they'll just move on to a softer target.

This seems like the best possible advice in the thread so far given what I know about the UK's self defense type issues.

I'm glad I live in a nation with civilized standards of the right to self defense and to defend one's property.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

"For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings..."

In the UK we are civilized enough to put life above property and think that better off stuff being stolen than an innocent person be killed.

Lets be fair here, not every state here allows lethal force for the defense of property. Hell, some states require you to retreat as far as possible, leaving the property if you must. Here in PA I can confront an intruder the moment they enter my house and beat them within an inch of their life with my bare hands if they don't run off, but I can't shoot them unless they have a weapon or they're going to burn my house down. Its tricky here in places as well.

 RossDas wrote:
Use visible warnings such as a burglar alarm - even if it's just a fake one. Put up beware the dog signs regardless of whether you own one. Beefing up garage/shed security is also advisable as their contents can be used to assist entry to the main building.
Everything about your property should be made unappealing to a possible intruder, if they think your house will be a hassle then the chances are they'll just move on to a softer target.

This.

Most burglars want an easy life, make it a hard option for criminals to come calling. Even if you are a real life tough guy, the best option is to make sure they don't have an excuse to to cause you, or your family serious harm.

You need to set up a tiered defense of snares, punji pits, and yelling "OI! Get out of here, I've called the peelers." which apparently is the magic phrase that makes people run in terror from your home. I think given your location you need to consider improving your security hinges and clasps with the screws to the interior, motion floods, etc. low cost high reward answers to burglers. Don't take your air gun outside, it just won't end well.

Steve steveson wrote:
In the UK we are civilized enough to put life above property and think that better off stuff being stolen than an innocent person be killed.

Ahh civilized enough to be the most violent country in Europe. A shining beacon to the world, no doubt.

 AustonT wrote:

Ahh civilized enough to be the most violent country in Europe.

Violent? FETHING VIOLENT? You come over 'ere and say that!

Since when is the UK the most violent nation in Europe?

When I glanced over the title of the thread I thought it said "I was just buggered..."

 Medium of Death wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

Ahh civilized enough to be the most violent country in Europe.

Violent? FETHING VIOLENT? You come over 'ere and say that!

Since when is the UK the most violent nation in Europe?

2009

A friend of my father's owns a large car park used by a ferry company. About 9 years ago there was some building nearby and despite high walls and barbed wire, thieves were breaking in and breaking into cars.

He consulted the police who told him officially to get a guard dog but put it on a strong rope leash to prevent it biting the burglars and them suing.

Unofficially they told him to take the rope and break it, tie one part to the dog's collar and one part to the wall. Then, if a burglar was mauled, it was the dog breaking the rope and he had taken steps to prevent it, the dog had just proven remarkably strong.

He purchased two ex military guard Alsatians the size of ponies, did the rope thing and never suffered a break in again.

Steve steveson wrote:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

"For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings..."

To be fair, speaking as someone who usually advocates for better gun control (and I'm not just talking about steadying yourself before firing here...) a large part of the problem is improper storage, children finding the gun and ammunition, or just plain stupidity.

Another issue is that a larger population equals more chances for stupidity.

I wouldn't worry about it. From what our British friends tell us whenever the subject comes up in home defense threads, you're very unlikely to be burgled in the first place, so home defense solutions beyond sturdy locks and knowing how to get in touch with the police are the product of paranoid fantasies.

And Knives, you're supposed to leap out of the dark with a knife in the infinitesimal occurrences of actual home invasions. But seriously he's being burgled in what sounds like a separate building so in this case I really think sturdy locks is the answer.

 AustonT wrote:
And Knives, you're supposed to leap out of the dark with a knife in the infinitesimal occurrences of actual home invasions. But seriously he's being burgled in what sounds like a separate building so in this case I really think sturdy locks is the answer.

Nah he can't do that. UK type people have proven so incapable of restraining their bestial urges to murder and generally mess one another up that all their knives have to look like this:



One wonders how they even get through a cricket match with those dangerous clubs being flung about without at least one death.

"You need to set up a tiered defense of snares, punji pits" I don't think you can set up traps as this comes under intention to harm.

Although yelling "OI! Get out of here, I've called the peelers." seems like a better idea than waving a rifle around.

This has pretty much told me what I already knew, Don't intend to harm someone unless they threaten you/family, get better locks and call the police.

Ow and air raid siren..that always works.

See if you can get some of these. If the cops come by deny any knowledge of a burgler on your property, make sure you clean up any suspicious stains that aforementioned scum may have left when he got turned into mist.

FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

 Seaward wrote:
I wouldn't worry about it. From what our British friends tell us whenever the subject comes up in home defense threads, you're very unlikely to be burgled in the first place, so home defense solutions beyond sturdy locks and knowing how to get in touch with the police are the product of paranoid fantasies.

100% correct and I am being completely serious. Of course we could be armed to the teeth to 'defend' ourselves and set up an arms race that makes things far more dangerous for ourselves like our transatlantic cousins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

I'm glad I live in a nation with civilized standards of the right to self defense and to defend one's property.

I will always be wary of a legal system which places property above human life.

And most burglaries tend to occur during the day when the burglar can see what they are doing and the house is empty.

 Frazzled wrote:


You need to look up the laws in your local jurisdiction and not rely on the internet for this.

Wise words from Frazzie.

<picks self off floor>

Frazzled wrote:You need to look up the laws in your local jurisdiction and not rely on the internet for this.

Frazzled's advice is the only post in the thread that you should listen to. I just threw up in my mouth.



Of course, you could also obtain a shotgun, fire both barrels into the intruder, and then place a knife into the hands of the body. Sometimes dead men tell the tales you want them to tell.
...not that I would ever endorse circumventing the UK's ridiculous criminal justice system.