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I just don't seem to be making any progress. I know it's not the list, but maybe I am playing it too safe? At 200 pts I keep getting eaten up by my sole opponent so far, who plays Ariadna. I tend to play a bit conservative. My snipers are often used against me, as a staging point to gun down the rest of my army.

PANOCEANIA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regs: 8/Irrs: 0):

2x FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (10)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (10)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Lieutenant

ORC Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife (32)
MOV:4-2 CC:15 BS:14 PH:14 WIP:12 ARM:4 BTS:-3 W:2
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

CROC MAN MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife (43 | 1.5)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:12 WIP:13 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, X Visor

TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (14)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Doctor

ORC MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Knife (40)
MOV:4-2 CC:15 BS:14 PH:14 WIP:12 ARM:4 BTS:-3 W:2
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife (41 | 1.5)
MOV:4-2 CC:14 BS:13 PH:12 WIP:13 ARM:3 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: Mimetism, Aquatic Terrain | Mountain Terrain | Zero-G, Multispectral Visor L2


200 Points | SWC: 3

ARMY CODE: eNozMlQ1VDNQM6wxVLMAkQZqRkDKyBxMmUClDMCUJVgMLAQAQEoLvw== Army Infinity v.3.0.

Couple ? for you...

- what does his lists typically look like?
- what does you terrain usually look like? (Pics is best)
- what is your positioning like?
- Are yoi playing killun or missions?

For 200pts you don't have alot of orders... I would suggest a full link team of the fusiliers at the least (5 orders + all those tasty bonuses, and with a HMG/spitfire you're golden)

Would recommend a bot for your doc (3pts and doc can be 2 places at once as well as keeping him safe)

I've never used Orc troops personally... I usually use Bagh Mari link team with HMG, their memetasism helps keep them alive on the assault. But then I do play Aconticimento and not base PanO

I find snipers to be somewhat overrated on a decent battlefield that isn't sniper-tower city... I'd much prefer HMGs and grenade launchers. (grenade launchers in a 5 man link team rock! Indirect speculative fire with 2 shots... only strength 13 but blast radius!)

Also MSV's are a lifesaver, MSV lvl 2 is a must, MSV lvl 3 is just amazing. Especially for all the smoke aridana usually pop.

If he's going for your snipers... minelayers. Spread a few around and let him kill himself trying to get you between incomming fire and the mines.

And don't hesitate to start with less rules than the full set.
Unless you really don't mind your situation =P

Well, playing vanilla PanO you don't get link teams, so you should definitely make sure you have a firm grasp of the coordinated order rules and make good use of them.

I agree with those who've suggested that you have too few orders, but that doesn't explain why you would consistently lose. Your orders are low-ish but not dreadful. However, you are a whole 1 SWC lower than you could be and have a noticeable lack of high volume firepower.

I would suggest replacing the trauma doc with something with an HMG, Spitfire, grenade launcher or similar: something to really impede your opponent's freedom of movement.

Ariadna is largely immune to having, of course, but is also unable to hack in return, so you might also think about throwing out a cheap TAG just to see how your opponent handles it.

R.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
PANOCEANIA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regs: 8/Irrs: 0):

2x FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (10)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (10)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Lieutenant

ORC Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife (32)
MOV:4-2 CC:15 BS:14 PH:14 WIP:12 ARM:4 BTS:-3 W:2
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

CROC MAN MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife (43 | 1.5)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:12 WIP:13 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, X Visor

TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (14)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:12 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Doctor

ORC MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Knife (40)
MOV:4-2 CC:15 BS:14 PH:14 WIP:12 ARM:4 BTS:-3 W:2
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube

NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife (41 | 1.5)
MOV:4-2 CC:14 BS:13 PH:12 WIP:13 ARM:3 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: Mimetism, Aquatic Terrain | Mountain Terrain | Zero-G, Multispectral Visor L2


200 Points | SWC: 3

ARMY CODE: eNozMlQ1VDNQM6wxVLMAkQZqRkDKyBxMmUClDMCUJVgMLAQAQEoLvw== Army Infinity v.3.0.

So, I´ll try to help. First which books do you use? It seems you just take minis from the core book...
Ariadna often swarms the game table so you´ll have to have some weapons with high burst and/or templates (loke precinctomega said: HMG, grenades, mines or flame thrower)

I would try to throw the Croc, Orc (Shotgun) and the Trauma Doc out of the list. The Orc with Multi is really expensive for a 2W-Modell with just a Multi Rifle. Perhaps try an Aquila Guard (MSV Lvl 3) or a Swiss Guard (Heavy with TO, really nasty). Nisses are super because of their MSV Lvl2. Perhaps use a Total Reaction Drone with HMG, i like them very much...

The best list will really depend on the enemy´s list and the used terrain.

Yeah total reaction drones can be a real pain for the enemy, but beware that they will try to get rid of them ASAP.

Maybe look at one of the sectorials that allow most of what you need, link teams are very deadly, especially on the reactive.

Sorry, I've been busy at work the past few days.

He usually fields, at least, from what I remember, 2 line kazaks, 2 chasseurs, 1 SAS, a grey and a wulver.

Terrain is dense but with a few juicy long fire lanes that we have to cross occasionally. I have a pic at home, I do believe.

My croc has been my most useful model, so far, throwing him a nasty spanner in his plans, but not lasting long after taking its shots. My Nisse has never survived past the first turn, his ARO have usually been very lucky.

Yes, I do think I lack HMG. I am converting an old Confrontation model to stand in for a Swiss Guard or Aquila Guard.

I wanted to bring my Jotum, but that would be over half my points, and I guess no one would mind if I had a bulleteer stand in for a dronbot with total reaction.

Shift is over, I'll respond more later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Thanks everyone!

How are you placing your sniper units? If you place them right he shouldn't stand a chance of hitting them untill he gets really close. Get them behind cover (-3), TO (-6), and long range (-3 usualy) puts him at a -12... he can't even roll. If you're in low viz (inside a building lets say) then there's another -3.

nvm. Read something wrong.

Otherwise, the -12 from TO in cover at range (long to extreme) is right. Negates pretty much all BUT the heavy stuff.

I thought you had to reveal your mini once you shot and so TO wasn't working anymore? If it's the case, then yeah, he shouldn't be able to hit me.

I'd usually take my shot, miss, and then get peppered by ARO or his turn. Yes, he was able to get quite close to me.

He is under them impression that the game board shouldn't exceed 4' X 4', since the board is square in the rulebook. So most of our specialists or hard hitters would be within 24'' of each other if they saw anyone at the beginning.

I am using the online army builder, so not limited by the original rulebook. That's just what I have on hand.

Oh, here's a pic of the board. Not that exact setup, but close enough.

Well, seems we found your problem with the Sniper either way. TO doesn't stop working when you shoot, all that happens is that you reveal the mini and then the -6 mod still apply.
Perhaps this is the problem in some more cases too? Slight rules mistakes that tip the battle into your opponenets favor? (Just a thought).

Edit: Come to think of it... when your Nisse shoots out of camo, you are aware that you opponent cannot make his aro until after you've taken your shots? So both of your shots should be unopposed, and at least one should hit. Given the MULTI nature of PanO snipers, that should be two wounds.
However, note that this only applies when shooting as a camo marker and revealing yourself.

Oh I continue reading, the rules are just... elaborate. I might be missing stuff still, but it is a work in progress. Nisse only has Mimetism, so that I kept taking into consideration throughout. He was being lucky as hell, I suppose. It was my Croc that has TO and kept getting blasted to smithereens as soon as I fired. If he keeps his -6 though... that could change things.

The CF has hit on what seems to be the biggest problem right there, Combat Camo attack is the biggest bonus to any Camo or TO camo unit (and the reason why you dont want to ARO with them before they are revealed as you lose this bonus if you dont re camo).

The other seems to be that your board is fairly empty, not hugely so, as there is a decent amount of terrain, but it could use some more lower level extras (crates, flowerbeds etc, more of what you have already got really) and definitely some taller, LoS blocking terrain as well. But not sniper towers Saying that, i love your board!

Also, im not 100%, but im about 99% that the board size is fluid. Use a bigger (6x4 maybe) board and deploy farther away, otherwise you are giving a huge advantage to any of his units that want to get up close, and taking away the slight range advantage you should have as PanO...With no way to negate your TO Camo as well (other than fire, beware the Chasseur) they should REALLY be struggling to hit you even without any other penalties from cover etc...

For 200 pts though a 4x4 is a good board to work with. Once you start playing with 350-400+ you might want to consider a 6x4.

I pretty much figured that you wern't counting the negatives to hit your sniper once he was revealed, hence why the negative list, but don't always take that as the saving grace.

Make sure to get your sniper's in low-viz, or better in cover (+3 armor and -3 to hit you) and you'll find they are VERY deadly.

I have to agree with Reiko, your board is a little sparse, especially on scatter stuff. A board should look busy with plenty of items to partially hide behind. You don't always need full cover, but you need a good variety of both. I like that you don't have tall towers on the board (sniper nests), but I would suggest at least 3-4 more buildings and add another half of the scatter you're using (so 1.5 as much). Try to offset the scatter and buildings so that there are no clear avenues from one side of the board to the other. I know it's nice and symetric to place everything in lines but it makes for firelanes that can be too easily guarded.

I'll have to remember to deploy inside buildings from now on. Nisse only have Mimetism, so the model is on the board, and since I can count on him having deployed very near the middle of the board, I can't count on it being long range.

Against Ariadna, -9 should be enought o keep me safe, as long as I hug cover, eh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The table is my friend's. I'm still in the process of making mine. He made most of it out of corkboard and foam, I decided to go foamcore/texture spray instead. And all of mine are 2 stories high. I'll have pictures once I am done with my stuff.

When playing Pan O against Ariadne, you can use his lack of visors against him aggressively.

-Camo your own troops, and/or
-Field an MSV3 trooper (Aquila with HMG) to remove his pervasive camo advantage.

If you're using sectorials, you could do a lot worse than Neoterra against Ariadna. A couple Aquilas and a couple flamerbots will help you root him out real quick. The Hexas can also play the comabt-camo attack game better than he can. There's also still a good cheap order-base in the Fusiliers to balance out all your expensive toys.

Some areas of that board could use some fleshing out. The backfield closest to the camera in particular is an AD HMG's wet dream.

4x4 is perfectly fine for 100-300pts
4x6 is good for 200-300pts 4 player (400-600 per side)
4x8 is good for huge multiplayer matchs like 4v4 or 5v5

I honestly never recommend that any player go above 300pts in a single list. Things start to break down much past that.

EDIT: the more I look at that board the more I cringe a bit. While looking really cool, there is some crazy long fire lanes, especially if those planters aren't at least 2" tall.

EDIT EDIT: Yes, TO Camo grants combat camo at a -6 modifier. It only goes away if burnt, unconscious, or if the opponent has an MSV2+

Fair play, i stand corrected on the board size issue..... appreciate the breakdown BD

Granted, we usually are on the side of a little denser terrain, but huge fire lanes can usually lead to long range weaponry dominating the battle field or players with long range weapons field "cheated" when some crazy ARO takes their long range weapon model down. When a player has to work up the field to take out the range weapon at the 0-12 range the long range player feels a little better about being out played.

For comparison here is our boards from our latest ITS last Saturday. The white building board was a little too tight packed and the desert like board was a little too open, but this should give you an idea.

Hey BlueDagger, can you tell me real quick if I need to have his marker revealed before I fire a flamethrower at a model in camo?

The tree colours are just throwing me off, guys. Call me a purist, but oxygen will require chlorophyll until proven otherwise. :-)

An intuitive attacks lets you target a camo'd figure with a flamethrower.

It's also a long skill (can't be done in ARO) AND takes a Wip test (if you fail, you can't do it) - but yes, you can light up a camo marker with a flamer.

As Dheneb and chrome said, you can fire a direct template weapon (flame thrower, chain rifle, nanoulser, etc) at a camo/TO camo marker, but it requires an Intuitive attack. It's also dangerous because your opponent can fire back, but if you fail your WIP check yours never goes off. You can also fire a direct template at a camo marker if there is another enemy model in range of the template to choose as the target. That's the risk of getting too bunched up.

On the tree color, they are flowering trees.

The pinkish trees I was just assuming they were cherry blossoms trees. Very trad Yu-Jing.

 chromedog wrote:
Low-viz and cover don't stack (see the FAQ/wiki).

Since when?!?

Corrected previous post.

Can I go on a rant now?

Nah, rants are right out of fashion now.

Rant away, chromedog, I'm here to learn and hear different opinions.