Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So my melta gun happy buddy advised me to use a Fusion Blaster Missile Pod load out for my Crisis Suits in stead of using the typical Fireknife setup I normally use.

Is this a good idea? I informed him that I feel uneasy about cutting my range in half to save a small amount of points.

Edit: I face Chaos Marines and Imperial Guard, both armies are not heavy mechanized.
I have:

1 Crisis commander: Fireknife

4 Teams of 12 firewarriors

1 Crisis suit: Fireknife

2 Pathfinder teams of 6 and two devilfish

1 Railhead

1 Broadside

Reason I ask is I have two new crisis suits but Im not sure how I should equip them.

What armies are you facing? What else do you have in your force? It's hard to recommend load outs in a vacuum. FWIW, with the changes to vehicle rules in 6th, I don't think melta and equivalent is as necessary as it once was. I prefer fireknife and deathrain suits, but I am a newbie at this edition, so bear that in mind.

It depends on what you intend to use the suit for. Plasma rifles and fusion blasters serve to different purposes. Do you want to kill heavy infantry, use plasma, if you want to pop heavy tanks, use fusion, if you want to pop light tanks, use missile pods.

The one thing you do need to do is use sensible combinations of weapons. The fusion blaster / missile pod combination your friend suggested makes no sense because of because of the enormous mismatch in weapon range and AP. A better combination is a plasma rifle / fusion blaster suit. Its all AP 1 and 2 so suits equipped that way will cut apart TEQs at close range and serve as secondary tank hunters.

I short, equip your suits for a specific purpose and use weapons in combinations which make sense.

HQs I run Plasma/missile because the ranges match up the closest and can take HWMT so I can still purchase a TA.

Elites are twin-linked missile pods to work around the BS3 and they can be useful in both overwatch and shooting flyers.

But it depends on how you're using them. I don't like the Fusion Blaster/missile pod combo because they use much different roles. The Missile pods are a high S weapon, but meant to be used at range.

Phanixis wrote:
The fusion blaster / missile pod combination your friend suggested makes no sense because of because of the enormous mismatch in weapon range and AP.

Actually it makes a lot of sense, especially if you're deep striking the unit. You have the melta to provide the primary firepower, and the missile pods to add some more "autocannon" shots in case the melta doesn't get the job done. Meanwhile even if you arrive off-target and outside 6" the missile pods into side/rear armor give you a decent shot of killing the target anyway.

Deep striking a crisis suit usually means a dead suit.

A deep srtiking crisis suit isn't a suit that is shooting from turn 1, which means it is a wasted suit.

 Krellnus wrote:
A deep srtiking crisis suit isn't a suit that is shooting from turn 1, which means it is a wasted suit.

No, because you use that deep strike to gain more effective shooting on the following turns. For example a melta suit can't shoot on turn 1 anyway, so deep striking takes it right into an ideal position that you couldn't get to if you start on the table. Obviously you don't want to deep strike everything, but for a few units it works very well.

I usually run a helios or two(as team leaders or commanders), although I have also used the missile pod/fusion suit to good effect.

I actually run more fusion blasters than I do missile pods in 6th. Light armor is less prevelant, and if I see tanks they are usually Av13/14. Broadsides work well, but having a few melta guns around if I need them is nice. Plus, they help against terminators, which I see a lot more of.

To the OP:

You can run this setup effectively, but only if you use it in a DS manner imo. Like Peregrine effectively said, these are the best tank busting weapons a suit can take, so if your going to drop one in with a fusion blaster, might as well pair it with a missile pod for the highest effectiveness.

I myself, do not like this strategy. I prefer to use my broadsides on anything that requires a meltagun to kill and keep my expensive suit farther away from the enemy.

As for the new suits. IMO always magnetize your suits. Far too many options available to permanently make a suit only one loadout. But if you have to glue something on, I would go with Death Rain suits with flamers. Cost effective, and good for all situations imo.

TL MP, and flamer, with a Team Leader with BSF.

I prefer plasma/fusion on higher-BS suits since the weapons synergize a little better in their intended targets than the plasma rifle and missile pod, but that's just me.

In all seriousness, I am loving Helios suits (plasma/fusion) in this edition. They are great against meq and teq, and are reasonably effective anti-tank units. If you are not fighting heavily mechanised armies, a couple of railguns should be enough to kill vehicles.

Helios suits will do great against chaos marines, but they will suffer against guard, but fireknives are not much better anyway. Maybe try a Helios-Deathrain combo.

The Plasma Rifle and Missile Pod combination is really schizophrenic to me. The target list for each weapon and the optimal use for them is so different that I just don't see them as effective at anything.

With its long range, I only put the missile pods on dedicated suits, twin-linking them and usually adding a targeting array for that 8/9 hits. I dance those puppies at long range and wreck light vehicles (and the occasional flyer). I'll sometimes send a similarly armed HQ along with them for that extra couple of shots a turn. Try to squeeze a Blacksunfilter onto one of the characters in the unit for that Nightvision goodness.

As for Plasma and Fusion weapons, I actually like to combine them both on the same suit, but only if I can make it BS 4 with a multi-tracker. So this typically limits them to the Shas'el/Shas'o and his bodyguard. I find the result very effective against terminators, marines and other stuff that gets a save from most of our other weapons. Flooding a unit with 9 shots that hit on a 3+, wound on a 2+, ignore armour and may cause Instant Death does a really good number. Also, the Plasma Rifles make it not critical to come down inside of 6 inches when you are trying to kill armour up to AV 12. They will usually pull off enough of the hul points that you get the kill even if the Fusion Blasters don't blow up the target directly.

When I am going with the elite suits instead of the HQ suits, I go back to twin-linked, again usually with the Targeting Array. 4 (if you attach a similarly equipped HQ) Twin Linked BS 4 Plasma Rifles can slowly peel off enemy heavy infantry at 24 inches, or potentially wipe out the unit at 12. They are also good at whittling down MCs and light vehicles.

For Twin Fusion, I like to keep the suit cheap and disposable, frequently throwing on a flamer instead of my targetign array. The goal of this suit is to deepstrike danger close to something with a high AV that needs to die, and kill it. It also can be a VIP assassination suit if you can catch a VIP at the back or edge of a unit and hit him with an instant death causing armour ignoring shot. Don't count on it working though.

I don't do Burst Canon suits at the moment, but if more hordes began to show up in my meta, I'd probably combine them with Plasma Rifles or Missile Pods.

Flamers I don't add as a primary weapon, but as a cheap way to field a twin fusion suit or as an anti-charge defense on an HQ suit.

Hope this helps.

I don't see the fascination with missile pods, I really dislike them. I always run PR and FB because they can annihilate terminators w/o SS!

Jefffar wrote:

I don't do Burst Canon suits at the moment, but if more hordes began to show up in my meta, I'd probably combine them with Plasma Rifles or Missile Pods.

Flamers I don't add as a primary weapon, but as a cheap way to field a twin fusion suit or as an anti-charge defense on an HQ suit.

Consider BC against marine spam meta as well, a BC-PR setup is quite effective at removing marines.

As for flamers, they are both a cheap way to make a TL suit, and provide nice anti-assault weapon. if you really get horded you want THESE as twin-linked, as they can form cheap suits who excel at killing light infantry and it outright dumb to charge at with survivors of said light infantry.

Nonsense, the reason the plasma is taken with the missile pod is their range's work together. You don't want to pay for a gun you don't fire much.

For normal suits, plasma/missile is the way to go. For HQ, plasma/fusion is another HQ + bodyguard option, and recommended in this slot.

Never burst cannons. Mathhammer isn't the game and tau already have enough str 5 ap 5.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Mathammer might not be the game, but it still provide some options.
I find the BC/plasma combo to strike a good balance between price, power and versatility. even though you got pleanty of S5AP5 I really see no problem in packing even more.
The MP is nice and all, but after the first PR/MP team and a TLMP team your third crisis team really go no use for it, and many lists will pack 4 teams (one of them being the HQ team)

As for MP and PR matching ranges-they don't. but its the closest match in range the MP has.

PR matches range much better with the BC, or the 81's SMS. both carry the issue of being a mere S5AP5, that as said you got pleanty of. (though the SMS cover ignoring is interesting, it works oddly with the PR anti-armor)

Fusion is a whole other story and can be used to make either suicide bombers, or matched with plasma for a terminator terror when going up close, but I personally don't feel that comfortable that close to termies.


EDIT: flamer-plasma sounds weird as hell.

While the plasma/missile pod suits seems to be shunned as being too much of a generalist, and think the weapons actually work well together. A plasma rifle is obvious the next best thing to twin-linking a missile pod for range matching. The similar strength values make both weapons good for tackling light armor, monstrous creatures and high toughness model. And the extra shot vs. and identically pointed fusion blaster means you will still be inflicting 2/3 of the damage the fusion blaster would be inflicting when tackling MEQ, which isn't a terrible loss in MEQ killing power, although you probably will still want Helios for TEQ.

Also when compared against plasma/BC, the plasma/BC is only giving your a 5% to 8% increase in casualties when tackling MEQ vs plasma/MP, which is nice, but probably not worth taking the loss of range, strength and AP4 from the missile pod and the corresponding loss of effectiveness against armor vehicles and high toughness targets. 8% isn't a bad price to pay for the increased flexibility of the fireknife. Also consider the fact that against any target, should you lose a round of shooting to the BC 18" range vs the MP 36" range, it will take at least 2 full rounds of shooting to recover any potential benefit you gained from your extra shot relative to the MP. The plasma/BC configuration is does give you a 25% to 33% increase in casualties against GEQ, but how often do you want to be using a plasma rifle against those targets?

I find PR/BC to be a very nice combo, especially when running limited suits.

To the topic at hand, based on the OP's list I think the fireforge(MP/FB) is a bad fit. Since you are running only 2 suits having the versatility of the Fireknife is probably a good idea. You got 2 railguns to work on the real heavy armor.

Since you have two new suits coming, I say magnets, barring that Deathrains would be a nice complement to the Fireknifes. But the best option would be to also get a Broadside upgrade kit. That way you get a second broadside and a third Fireknife or the first Deathrain.

I know the BC/PR is more points efficient than FB/PR, however it's not points efficient enough to buy me enough extra suits to put down the total number of Marines the FB/PR kills and it doesn't help me against terminators, vehicles or Monstrous Creatures.

Being able to pull the trigger on a unit that can deepstrike in and lay out a Nemesis Dreadknight a squad of Grey Knights or a Land Raider as well as ravage normal MEQs is more tactically important to me than that small bit of spare points gained.

I know there are those who say not following Mathhammer is foolish, but sometimes you need the tactical option more than you need to squeeze the last little bit out of your points.

Jefffar wrote:
I know the BC/PR is more points efficient than FB/PR, however it's not points efficient enough to buy me enough extra suits to put down the total number of Marines the FB/PR kills and it doesn't help me against terminators, vehicles or Monstrous Creatures.

Being able to pull the trigger on a unit that can deepstrike in and lay out a Nemesis Dreadknight a squad of Grey Knights or a Land Raider as well as ravage normal MEQs is more tactically important to me than that small bit of spare points gained.

I know there are those who say not following Mathhammer is foolish, but sometimes you need the tactical option more than you need to squeeze the last little bit out of your points.

Naturally it depends on how many suits you run, I suggested it for the third squad there, meaning you run TONS of suits in your lists, and as such keeping each cheaper is a good idea.

You don't need to work with mathammer alone, but ignoring it completely is indeed foolish, it helps you see just what gun is good for what, and sometimes the results are counter-intuitive. for example-while the BC/PR combo is lacking the ranged power of the MP/PR, it deals more damage against every possible infantry target type, and cheaper to boot! (not just "more for point", more total damage, from a cheaper unit-meaning you can pack even more, not alot, but every footslugger extra matters!)

There are more viable suit configurations then most would give credit for, I find that BC/PR, MP/PR, FU/PR, TLMP, TLPR, TLFB and (rarely) TLFL are all an option you want to consider.

Jefffar wrote:
I know the BC/PR is more points efficient than FB/PR, however it's not points efficient enough to buy me enough extra suits to put down the total number of Marines the FB/PR kills and it doesn't help me against terminators, vehicles or Monstrous Creatures.

Being able to pull the trigger on a unit that can deepstrike in and lay out a Nemesis Dreadknight a squad of Grey Knights or a Land Raider as well as ravage normal MEQs is more tactically important to me than that small bit of spare points gained.

image curtesy of cottonjaw

You can see that the boost in dead meq/teq of burning eye vs bladestorm is about .1 of a kill
Vs ss teq bladestorm is actually better, barely.

Vs meq tl plasma with a ta inflicts the most wounds, it is also the most expensive though.

I wont be running bladestorm anytime soon but with the extra range over helios its a legitimate option.

That plasma flamer multitracker combo above makes very little sense to me, if you want to snipe meq that badly take rail rifles or a ion cannon.

Yes, the edge out on infantry models is only slight, but my target list wasn't only infantry models.

When you choose your crisis suit load outs you base them on what you expect them to fight. My Crisis Suits are going after the stuff that absolutely has to die as quick as possible and a hail of ST 5 isn't quite enough to do it and my ST 10 is focused on other targets (you can only have so many Railguns, especially at 1500 points or less).

The plasma/fb crisis teams are the most cost efficient way I've found of dealing that sort of immediate focused damage. 9 high strength shots that ignore armour is a bad day for that super unit in the enemy ranks.

If I didn't see so many Nemesis Dreadknights and GK Terminators (who fortunately don't have a Stormsheild option) I'd go back to Deathrains which are far more points effective on light vehicles, have a limited anti-air capability and survive better because they don't have to get nearly so close.

Jefffar wrote:
The Plasma Rifle and Missile Pod combination is really schizophrenic to me. The target list for each weapon and the optimal use for them is so different that I just don't see them as effective at anything.

Light vehicles and anything Xenos, or GEQ. You have AP2 and AP4 IIRC, Str6-7 that is able to wound/kill most non Power armor armies relatively easy. While against the PA armies at least you can try to keep some range in whilst shooting.

Very sound arguments, I will try some of these other loadouts on my next few games.

You might also consider running a third gun on Crisis Team Leaders.

In my army, I tend to run PR/BC suits with the Team Lead carrying an extra Fusion Blaster. That way he can pick the two best for the target, and get a chance against armor if needed.

The other team is a FB/MP team, with a TL that has a Flamer. Gives me a nice volume of anti-armor shots, with a bit of anti-horde as needed.

Third team that I've not been running lately has BC/MP and a FB on the Team Lead. Went for cheap cost per shot and volume of fire here.

Usage-wise, I generally DS my suits and let my armor handle the Turn 1 shooting. If you need more anti-light armor on turn 1, keep the MP suits on. If there's a lot of heavier armor, DS them. This also lets me get my suits an alpha strike on their targets of choice before getting hammered down - DFs and HHs with DPods are pretty survivable in Turn 1 shooting.

I know a case-by-case is not a solid argument, but I would jsut like to state I just had a 1000 point game against C:SM running two teams of 3 BC/PR and a commander with a CiB/PR, with spectacular results (he yielded at turn 4 as he took so many losses he could not hope even for a tie)

The correct answer to this question is magnets.

but really it depends on your play style.

personally FB/MP seems at odds with each other as one is meant for long range harass and light vehicle killing, while the other is meant for short range vehicle/teq killing.

i still believe its best to take FB with only PR and the missile pods should only ever be taken as twin linked.

Something that just came up - if you have some suits with Fusion + Flamer + Multitracker, and they pop a transport with the Fusion, can you then flame the squad inside in the same shooting phase?