Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

First Question,

There was a situation in a game the other day where my opponent had his model 1" away from my land raider but standing in the turning arc of the side sponsor las cannon. When I went to shoot he said I couldn't aim at his dreadnought because I couldn't turn the weapon turret without hitting his model with the end of the barrel. I looked in the BRB and in the vehicles section that weapon were ignored as part of the hull. We began to discuss that you couldn't move through enemy models and such, but the argument went nowhere so I didn't do it. I have looked through the rulebook but I have found no rule that said I couldn't do that.
Is there any problem with what I was trying to do?

Secondly if I buy a land raider as a heavy support choice can a unit deploy in it? No rules I found prevent this and it say for dedicated transports the only limitation for a dedicated transport is that the unit that purchased it is the only unit that can be start the game in it.

Could you target the model down the length of the barrel?
If not then no joy shooting at the model.

I could target the dreadnought fine but can I turn the weapon to do so even if it meant moving the gun through a model?

You missed the point, the only restriction is targetting down the length of the barrel. If for whatever reason you couldn't move the gun to get LOS to the edge of the enemy model then no you cannot shoot it.
If you cannot turn the gun to hit the model then no you cannot hit it.

but what rule says you cannot turn the gun with an intervening model in the way?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You missed the point, the only restriction is targetting down the length of the barrel. If for whatever reason you couldn't move the gun to get LOS to the edge of the enemy model then no you cannot shoot it.
If you cannot turn the gun to hit the model then no you cannot hit it.

Weeeellll... There is the rule that says that if it is glued down or unable o otherwise move, count the arc as if it could.

If I have a model that's in b2b with the LR and you want to shoot it but it's too close to actually aim down the barrel if it was free moving, could you shoot at it?

I think the rules are clear that if you cannot or couldn't move the the gun if it was free moving to draw los then you cannot shoot.

I was a tanker, and prayed for the day some dummy would stand in the way of MY traversing turret.
Not only can you fire (as per glued gun rule); but the model in the way of the "swing" should take a CC hit from the gun!
lol

I don't see anything in the rules that allow you to shoot at the model, yes you could pivot in your movement to get a shot on or just tank shock it into the next life. Just how I see it.

You are supposed to use the barrel as the reference point to sight along.

If the barrel either extends past the model or otherwise can't point at the model, then you can't shoot at the enemy.

Another example situation would be a model 1" away from the base of a Stormraven. There isn't a single weapon on the Stormraven that could hit that model without it moving first.

In short, you should have moved your land raider such that you could actually shoot his dreadnought. Probably just reversing it a few inches would have worked.

You're missing the point. The dread is clearly in the arc and Los of the weapon. The only point of contention is that a model is blocking the traversal of the weapon. There's no rules guns being blocked by enemy models.

It's not in LOS. LOS is required to be traced along the barrel.
Can you trace a line along the barrel to the target?

 pretre wrote:
You're missing the point. The dread is clearly in the arc and Los of the weapon. The only point of contention is that a model is blocking the traversal of the weapon. There's no rules guns being blocked by enemy models.

This.

maybe I wasn't so clear in the original post, he had his sanguinor in the movement arc of the las cannon and the dreadnought was about 4" away from the sanguinor. Even though I had clear line of sight to the dreadnought, the sanguinor was in the way of my turret turning to aim at the dreadnought.

I don't believe there is any rule allowing or forbidding firing on the dread in this scenario. My inclination would be to say if you cannot pivot the weapon into place, you cannot fire. That's most consistent with conventional rules.

The problem is, if the weapon is glued down, it would be easy to be unaware that the weapon could not pivot. In a tournament scenario, that would be a potential (if rare) advantage.

I would say you would not be allowed to fire, and someone with a glued sponson would need to be on their honor.

You have no permission to move one model through another model, therefore you cannot do it.

So what you're basically saying is his priest runs up next to the lascannon and pushes it back when it tries to rotate over his head to shoot. I'd allow this but only if he was armed with 2 power fists and 2 power boots for bracing.

I think the "glued down or otherwise unable to move" should cover this, but I would be rather annoyed to even have this kind of gimmick brought up.
Remember that we are playing a tactical simulation. Barrels only move and rotate so we can more accurately get LOS.
There are no rules for how to traverse a turret, or for how said traversing turret would interact with intervening models. Any restrictive stipulations based on such ideas are going to have to be agreed on ahead of time. Otherwise the firing player should have full permission to execute the desired action.
In short: no making up rules. It's not a nice way to play 40K.

There's no rule I've read that says what happens if your gun barrel would hit another model on the head. I'd suggest a compromise if your opponent won't back down - give the target a cover save as if the guy getting the barrel in the head was an intervening model.

As there doesn't seem to be a hard rule, I'd allow traversal of the sponson through the other model, if only because the alternative would create so many points of arguments.

For instance, if you disallow traversing the barrel through other models, do the wings of the Sanguinor in question (which don't count for LOS purposes) count as barrel blocking? Or that Hormagaunt that has its claw modelled upwards just high enough to reach the barrel?

 Fafnir13 wrote:
I think the "glued down or otherwise unable to move" should cover this, but I would be rather annoyed to even have this kind of gimmick brought up.
Remember that we are playing a tactical simulation. Barrels only move and rotate so we can more accurately get LOS.
There are no rules for how to traverse a turret, or for how said traversing turret would interact with intervening models. Any restrictive stipulations based on such ideas are going to have to be agreed on ahead of time. Otherwise the firing player should have full permission to execute the desired action.
In short: no making up rules. It's not a nice way to play 40K.

Incorrect. There ARE rules for traversing sponson / turrets - as far as it can actually move.

There is no allowance to move one model through another, meaning you cannot do it.

So the moral of the story is to glue down all your weapons, then you wouldn't be blocked.

On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally
move the gun and point it towards the target because of the
waythe model is assembled or because the gun has been
glued in place.In this case,players should assume that
the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their
mountings.

Which is just silly.

I'd allow it based on Petre's post from the book. How does one determine where the barrel would be? That's the point that'd be up for debate, and I'd rule that it be measured from the sponson itself, losing the 1" or so of the barrel(s).

Hard to say without a picture, but it sounds like the Sanguinor would block LOS to the Dreadnought, and whether the lascannon was blocked from turning was irrelevant. However, it would be an issue if you wanted to fire at the Sanguinor.

 pretre wrote:
So the moral of the story is to glue down all your weapons, then you wouldn't be blocked.

On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally
move the gun and point it towards the target because of the
waythe model is assembled or because the gun has been
glued in place.In this case,players should assume that
the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their
mountings.

Which is just silly.

Says free to rotate. Does not say that you have permission to rotate it through other models

It also doesn't say that models obstruct. I think it is unclear enough that I would just 4+ it if my opponent objected.

Permisive ruleset. It doesnt need to say you cannot do something, it needs to say you can.

Good point. I suppose you would need to just leave your sponson extended at the end of your shooting so that Sang couldn't move within 1" of it.

last time i checked this situation is impossible unless something assaulted the land raider you are claiming that the sponson is not apart of the hull and therefore doesn't need to stay 1 inch away from your model.

If it doesn't exist it can rotate through you model...

If it does exist, you need to back up 1 inch.

either way, you would get a 5+ cover save.
oh and if my sponsons don't exist that means i can park land raiders back to back and the rear would get a 4+ cover save vs all shooting because you wouldn't be able to see the front arc, i can also stick the sponson out from behind and wall, shoot you but not be shot back at,

Sponsons exists, back up 1", dread gets 5+ cover for being obscured.

How is it impossible? Physics says otherwise.