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I wrote a quick blurb on Capture and Control about this. You can read it here: http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/01/is-gw-making-their-print-codices-bad-on.html or read it down below where I will cut and paste it.

Is GW pushing us to purchase electronic forms of their Codices by making the printed versions terrible on purpose?

Think about this for a second. They make more money off the electronic version than the printed version. So a company as money hungry as GW, who now has realized this, will obviously want you to buy the electronic copy over the hard back. The electronic copy costs you just as much but costs them much less in the overhead costs associated with publishing. Materials, binding, printing, storage, shipping etc. The electronic version is 100% better for them from a business standpoint.

So, how do you get us to buy it over the hardback copy? Well, not only do you make the electronic copy superior in every way you can. 360 degree model images, interactive art work etc. But, if your GW, you go the extra step.

You make the hardback codex worse. Fill it with massive numbers of errors that need whole sheets of errata. Then when you release it, have the electronic version completely up to date but the print version sorely out of date. Then make those with the print version wait for the FAQ to come out, days after the electronic updates. Continue to trickle release updates and FAQs that automatically fix the actual electronic codex but create pages of printed out FAQ sheets that become obsolete over and over for those "print users".

I know people think GW is maniacal. But this one, at least to me, actually makes some sense.

I think that's a conspiracy theory too far for me. The whole point of digital products such as codex, textbooks, whatever, is so you can add things like 360's, videos, animation, sound clips etc. surely if there is a system in place to push updates and fix errors, it would be scandalous if they DIDN'T use it.

Could you imagine if you needed to pick up a physical disc every time you needed to patch windows?

 Eggs wrote:
I think that's a conspiracy theory too far for me. The whole point of digital products such as codex, textbooks, whatever, is so you can add things like 360's, videos, animation, sound clips etc. surely if there is a system in place to push updates and fix errors, it would be scandalous if they DIDN'T use it.

Could you imagine if you needed to pick up a physical disc every time you needed to patch windows?

Sometimes, you still do, even if it's not for every single update.

That's just paranoia. GW might drive sales of the digital one a bit, but there's two big problems with that plan:

1) It sacrifices their image as a company that makes high-quality products. If you deliberately introduce typos everywhere you de-value the product line as a whole, and no sane company is going to do that willingly.

2) The limiting factor on the digital versions is ownership of ipads, not the print copy. Making the print copy full of typos isn't going to make anyone go out and buy a $500 ipad, so all it does is make the print version a lower-quality product.

So, I really doubt it's anything more than just an extreme example of GW's failure to have an effective editor, something FW fans have been dealing with for as long as FW has been publishing books.

What was that saying about not attributing to malice that which you can more easily attribute to incompetence?

I think it's far more likely the just couldn't, or were unable, to do their job properly. Of course as you say an unintended bonus of that could be that people buy the print version, then see the improvements of the digital download and buy that as well.

Tin foil hat sales on the rise!

So that you understand what is involved, a printed paperback book, of the type BL produce, in the kind of volumes GW will buy, will cost about £1.50-2.00 to have printed. Hell I get prices of around £3-3.50, for limited runs of 500 books.

Now usually in the publishing industry, you would have these distributed to places like waterstones, who take a good chunk of the cover price, and at maybe £6-8 rrp, the publisher might make 1-2 quid per unit.

What GW do however, is sell them through their own stores, and online, for a higher than standard paperback price - £8-14 thus the production costs are a MAXIMUM of 25% of the sale price.

With hardback full colour codex, I'd take an educated guess that they are about £5 to have printed and bound, and the new ones are going for £30, so a unit costs 16% of the sale price to physically make. When they sell a digital version of the same book, apple take a 30% slice of the pie. In addition, printed books are sales tax free, but electronic versions are subject to sales tax, yet are the same price, so the government are also taking a healthy slice of the pie.

In addition, digital books add more expense to development costs. (Those 360's don't create themselves).

Just because something is not a physical thing, does not mean it is pure profit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Sometimes, you still do, even if it's not for every single update.

Just because one tech giant has an incompetent update system, doesn't mean the others should emulate it!

No. This is absurd.

We needed another 'I hate GW thread!'. If there is nothing legitimate to talk about, we can use the latest release of FAQs to make up stuff about "how it is intentional"

Quick, someone change their facebook profile to "Has been in a GW store" and post "GW makes misprints on purpose" on their page so we can all pretend that an executive said it and manufacture outrage!

 Peregrine wrote:
That's just paranoia. GW might drive sales of the digital one a bit, but there's two big problems with that plan:

1) It sacrifices their image as a company that makes high-quality products. If you deliberately introduce typos everywhere you de-value the product line as a whole, and no sane company is going to do that willingly.

2) The limiting factor on the digital versions is ownership of ipads, not the print copy. Making the print copy full of typos isn't going to make anyone go out and buy a $500 ipad, so all it does is make the print version a lower-quality product.

So, I really doubt it's anything more than just an extreme example of GW's failure to have an effective editor, something FW fans have been dealing with for as long as FW has been publishing books.

I doubt GW has much integrity after finecast, misproprotional price bumps, broken rules, and other lacks of oversight.

pretre wrote:Tin foil hat sales on the rise!

Probably. I am thinking this solely because it has completely worked on me. I bought the Necron, and CSM codex iBooks. Then I waffled on the DA book and finally just bought it hardback because I had store credit from tournament wins at my FLGS and I really didn't want to pay $50 for the book on iTunes, honestly who does, and now that I have the Print copy I completely regret it. To the point that I will only buy the iBook copy of codices int he future.

So, yes, maybe a bit paranoid.

nkelsch wrote:No. This is absurd.

We needed another 'I hate GW thread!'. If there is nothing legitimate to talk about, we can use the latest release of FAQs to make up stuff about "how it is intentional"

Quick, someone change their facebook profile to "Has been in a GW store" and post "GW makes misprints on purpose" on their page so we can all pretend that an executive said it and manufacture outrage!

Perhaps you could check other things I have posted. I am by no means a GW hater, nor an apologist. I love the game and I understand GW is a business, it does have some less than savory aspects but what company doesn't? This was not a "let's hate on GW" thread. It is a "what if?" thread. It certainly seems plausible to me, and as I stated above has worked on me, if it is indeed their strategy.

There are an absurd amount of errors in the DA codex. More than any I can remember from 3rd edition, when I started, and onwards. It is perhaps a bit of paranoia, but not hate. I am not a GW hater.

 Eggs wrote:
Just because one tech giant has an incompetent update system, doesn't mean the others should emulate it!

You won't find ME disagreeing.

Who says the digital versions are always better?

I think this is sort of tin-foil hat territory. If GW wanted to make the digital version more attractive they have other, more viable ways of doing so than by making themselves look bad intentionally.

Besides, the codices were riddled with errors before, too. Although I haven't been playing long enough to have been through 2 main rulebook transitions, I have to imagine that the 6 to 8 month window after such a release will generate an abnormal number of corrections, especially when the rules are written as loosely as they are.

 Ouze wrote:
Besides, the codices were riddled with errors before, too.

That's my biggest objection to this thread...

 Melissia wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Besides, the codices were riddled with errors before, too.

That's my biggest objection to this thread...

Not on the same scale as the DA book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fezman wrote:
Who says the digital versions are always better?

I don't play Fantasy so I wasn't aware of this.

That's not a Fantasy book, it's Dark Angels.

The fundamental difference being that they can just push a fix from the servers. Post-physical non-dead-tree book ftw!

I am a bibliophile (that's a book lover, not a pervert, just in case you didn't know), and I swore I'd never start with an e-reader, cos I love the smell of new pages, and the tactile sensations that accompany reading, but I bought an iPad last year (when amazon dicked around not releasing the kindle fire over here.)

I haven't looked back. The GW rules and army books are a bonus, but the fact I can take a couple of thousand books on holiday is awesome sauce.

It'd be ten times worse if the updates for the electronic version weren't free, and if FAQ's were iOS only paid bundles (.99c for an FAQ, or with the way GW charges for FAQs, £8.99/US$14.50/OZ$300).

And GW Codices have been riddled with obvious errors since the days of yore. Then being in hardback doesn't increase the amount of mistakes, only the price...

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Fill it with massive numbers of errors that need whole sheets of errata. Then when you release it, have the electronic version completely up to date but the print version sorely out of date. Then make those with the print version wait for the FAQ to come out, days after the electronic updates. Continue to trickle release updates and FAQs that automatically fix the actual electronic codex but create pages of printed out FAQ sheets that become obsolete over and over for those "print users".

If that is their plan they've been sowing the seeds for more than 10 years so hats off to them!

Nah, I go by the rule never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Nah, I go by the rule never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

It's certainly a good rule.

That's silly John. It's much easier to stealth update a digital codex than a physical one, but it would be cool if they did. Imagine waking up to A GW employee creeping in your window with updated Codex pages in hand...

 Dok wrote:
That's silly John. It's much easier to stealth update a digital codex than a physical one, but it would be cool if they did. Imagine waking up to A GW employee creeping in your window with updated Codex pages in hand...

Don't call me silly, I know where you live!

It is a bit paranoid of me I suppose, but I can't help thinking it since I bought the print copy and now thoroughly regret it!

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The electronic copy costs you just as much but costs them much less in the overhead costs associated with publishing. Materials, binding, printing, storage, shipping etc. The electronic version is 100% better for them from a business standpoint.

This is really quite false... There is a metric gak-ton of programming that goes into making a book and electronic book. All that programming is done by folks who generally have at minimum, technical certifications, and at most PhDs in computer sciences. All of which drive up their basic salary (unless they are working for models). Then you STILL have to pay the writers, editors (who are obviously underpaid), and publishers (which is gotten around by being the publisher as well).

Of course, we can also talk about the additional staff needed for picture taking, graphics designers to make up the aesthetics of the now digital book, etc. Hopefully, you get the idea that it really isn't cheaper to do things electronically than in paper.


In fact, from a GW "business" standpoint, IMO, it makes more sense to stay in the paper industry, make a book with just enough toughness that when it falls apart in a few months of gaming, you aren't overly upset at having to get another copy (especially if you are in an area that enforces intact GW published codices)

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
You make the hardback codex worse. Fill it with massive numbers of errors that need whole sheets of errata. Then when you release it, have the electronic version completely up to date but the print version sorely out of date. Then make those with the print version wait for the FAQ to come out, days after the electronic updates. Continue to trickle release updates and FAQs that automatically fix the actual electronic codex but create pages of printed out FAQ sheets that become obsolete over and over for those "print users".

GW have done FAQs (albeit of dubious worth) for many years now. This isn't a new thing. What it does show is a. GW are willing to do the smart thing and update the ebook version and b. shows how bad the books have always been.

It's not about GW saying feth you to people with the print version, but merely showing the superiority of an updatable electronic rules medium over an un-updatable print version. There's corrections in the ebook version when the print version hits the stands? Say thanks to the huge lead time print versions have. GW just had the time and ability to update the ebook version in that lead time.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The electronic copy costs you just as much but costs them much less in the overhead costs associated with publishing. Materials, binding, printing, storage, shipping etc. The electronic version is 100% better for them from a business standpoint.

This is really quite false... There is a metric gak-ton of programming that goes into making a book and electronic book. All that programming is done by folks who generally have at minimum, technical certifications, and at most PhDs in computer sciences. All of which drive up their basic salary (unless they are working for models). Then you STILL have to pay the writers, editors (who are obviously underpaid), and publishers (which is gotten around by being the publisher as well).

Really? I figured that these days most books WOULD be made electronic then printed. Then they'd just need to be converted to some DRM laden format which I'd figure would be compatible with whatever vector graphics format they had it in originally.

But either way, it wouldn't surprise me if the digital copies cost more for them, even if it cost them little more to actually produce the electronic copy, they'd have to pay Apple for the use of iBookstore.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The electronic copy costs you just as much but costs them much less in the overhead costs associated with publishing. Materials, binding, printing, storage, shipping etc. The electronic version is 100% better for them from a business standpoint.

This is really quite false... There is a metric gak-ton of programming that goes into making a book and electronic book. All that programming is done by folks who generally have at minimum, technical certifications, and at most PhDs in computer sciences. All of which drive up their basic salary (unless they are working for models). Then you STILL have to pay the writers, editors (who are obviously underpaid), and publishers (which is gotten around by being the publisher as well).

Really? I figured that these days most books WOULD be made electronic then printed. Then they'd just need to be converted to some DRM laden format which I'd figure would be compatible with whatever vector graphics format they had it in originally.

But either way, it wouldn't surprise me if the digital copies cost more for them, even if it cost them little more to actually produce the electronic copy, they'd have to pay Apple for the use of iBookstore.

Well, it would certainly be cheaper if GW simply repackaged the PDF and threw it on iTunes. But that's not what they've done. The books have a huge amount of interactivity behind them that would take quite some time to develop and test.

 -Loki- wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The electronic copy costs you just as much but costs them much less in the overhead costs associated with publishing. Materials, binding, printing, storage, shipping etc. The electronic version is 100% better for them from a business standpoint.

This is really quite false... There is a metric gak-ton of programming that goes into making a book and electronic book. All that programming is done by folks who generally have at minimum, technical certifications, and at most PhDs in computer sciences. All of which drive up their basic salary (unless they are working for models). Then you STILL have to pay the writers, editors (who are obviously underpaid), and publishers (which is gotten around by being the publisher as well).

Really? I figured that these days most books WOULD be made electronic then printed. Then they'd just need to be converted to some DRM laden format which I'd figure would be compatible with whatever vector graphics format they had it in originally.

But either way, it wouldn't surprise me if the digital copies cost more for them, even if it cost them little more to actually produce the electronic copy, they'd have to pay Apple for the use of iBookstore.

Well, it would certainly be cheaper if GW simply repackaged the PDF and threw it on iTunes. But that's not what they've done. The books have a huge amount of interactivity behind them that would take quite some time to develop and test.

We used to do a bunch of our technical manuals using Author - and it isn't nearly as hard as some would like to make it out to be. You aren't programming an App - you are using a program that isn't much different than MS Word (or perhaps something like a WYSIWYG HTML editor would be more appropriate). There are a lot of tools in it which allow you to add that interactivity to documents. We actually switched to ePublishing because it was cheaper than physical manuals. If we upgraded software - we could change everything. If a customer was attempting to configure the server and got hung up on some jargon...there was an integrated glossary (which is likely what they are using for their rules linking).

Even with the added costs of supplying an iPad and buying a few Macs to actually run Author - it was still cheaper. We had regular administrative types (some might call them secretaries) with high school diplomas to do all the work. No fancy degrees - just basic typing skills. If you have access to a Mac - you can download it for free and see just how "hard" it must be for GW to do what they are doing. Even the 360 degree model widgets are nothing fancy with it.

 Peregrine wrote:


1) It sacrifices their image as a company that makes high-quality products. If you deliberately introduce typos everywhere you de-value the product line as a whole, and no sane company is going to do that willingly.

They sacrificed their image as a company that makes high-quality products when they rolled out Finecast. They no longer have that imagine in most people's minds.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
The electronic copy costs you just as much but costs them much less in the overhead costs associated with publishing. Materials, binding, printing, storage, shipping etc. The electronic version is 100% better for them from a business standpoint.

This is really quite false... There is a metric gak-ton of programming that goes into making a book and electronic book. All that programming is done by folks who generally have at minimum, technical certifications, and at most PhDs in computer sciences. All of which drive up their basic salary (unless they are working for models). Then you STILL have to pay the writers, editors (who are obviously underpaid), and publishers (which is gotten around by being the publisher as well).

Really? I figured that these days most books WOULD be made electronic then printed. Then they'd just need to be converted to some DRM laden format which I'd figure would be compatible with whatever vector graphics format they had it in originally.

But either way, it wouldn't surprise me if the digital copies cost more for them, even if it cost them little more to actually produce the electronic copy, they'd have to pay Apple for the use of iBookstore.

Well, it would certainly be cheaper if GW simply repackaged the PDF and threw it on iTunes. But that's not what they've done. The books have a huge amount of interactivity behind them that would take quite some time to develop and test.

We used to do a bunch of our technical manuals using Author - and it isn't nearly as hard as some would like to make it out to be. You aren't programming an App - you are using a program that isn't much different than MS Word (or perhaps something like a WYSIWYG HTML editor would be more appropriate). There are a lot of tools in it which allow you to add that interactivity to documents. We actually switched to ePublishing because it was cheaper than physical manuals. If we upgraded software - we could change everything. If a customer was attempting to configure the server and got hung up on some jargon...there was an integrated glossary (which is likely what they are using for their rules linking).

Even with the added costs of supplying an iPad and buying a few Macs to actually run Author - it was still cheaper. We had regular administrative types (some might call them secretaries) with high school diplomas to do all the work. No fancy degrees - just basic typing skills. If you have access to a Mac - you can download it for free and see just how "hard" it must be for GW to do what they are doing. Even the 360 degree model widgets are nothing fancy with it.

Oh, I know it's done using a relatively easy tool. What I was saying is it's not as simple as just repacking a PDF and throwing it on iTunes. There is additional development and testing. Not as much as was made out, but it's there.

That's IF they used author - the t&c's of author are a little over the top in terms of the rights you give away, however there's nothing in author really that you can't accomplish reasonably easily using other methods. It really is quite simple to format something from the iBookstore (or amazon for that matter), but the companies which own the distribution networks get to dictate what percentage they take - so gw will make less profit on a digital version, despite the fact it involves the same or slightly more costs to produce the content.

The plus side of giving away a slice of that pie? The distribution network you are paying for makes it easy to fix mistakes after the sale.