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So im in the process of working on my evil armies for 40k (traitor guard and chaos marines) and thought of painting my guard in a sort of SS theme. I already have one commissar painted black with red shoulder pads (will free hand a symbol later and post pics). Will do a nazi type flag for the command squad, and try and model my tanks to look abit like the panthers. Swastikas on a thunderbolt fighter would look awesome.

With my chaos cultists, i wanted to base them on some dicky cults, so i wracked y brain and thought, whats a whacky, evil, grim dark cult? KKK. So im thinking many white robes for my cultists (they are chaos after all and are very evil). Any thoughts and suggestions please let me know. I will keep you updated, and add pics as the project goes along.

Well personally i don't have anything against the SS theme but i would tone it down a little with the iconogaphy. SS theme on an WW2 army is something different than the same thing on a 40K army. It can lead to heated discussions i imagine. And i would add some chaos signs like icons and mutations to avoid the feeling of "just Nazis/KKK in space."

And with your cultists you should probably also think of creating a CSM colorscheme that matches with your white cultists or they will look a little bit out of place.
To tone down on the racism problem on both armies you could paint them witn varrying skin tones so that they aren't just racists and more like big bad chaos traitors.

Modelingwise this might interest you: [Here] These bits could create some nice looking characters for your armies.

Oh boy.... This wont end well.


While i have no problem with Nazi themed armies many people do. The Klan cultists are maybe talking it a little far though.




Edit - Forgot to actually add topic related content.

If you are dead set on having KKK cultists then maybe do what boomhammer suggested and tone them down a bit. Paint them white sure, but leave the hoods off and maybe stay away from flaming brands as well. Go heavy on the chaos symbols too.

Im not aiming for racism, and tbh the bit about the KKK was just to be a bit of a troll. But in all seriousness i just the look of the german uniforms from ww2, so decided to go with that theme.

 gmatthews wrote:
Im not aiming for racism, and tbh the bit about the KKK was just to be a bit of a troll. But in all seriousness i just the look of the german uniforms from ww2, so decided to go with that theme.

I'd really lay off the iconography though... colourschemes are one thing, swastika's something else entirely

My cousin just started an Imperial Guard army and wants me to paint them as "Nazi Vietnam Vets from Planet Nam in the Charlie Sector." I'm okay with the color scheme but I agree that you may want to be careful about your use of icons/symbols. A little controversy or even dark humor is one thing, but that's the kind of thing that could offend people to the point that you would be denied access to playing at stores or local tournaments. If you're just playing with buddies, probably not a big deal, but I know I wouldn't let anyone tote a full blown Nazi swag CSM army into my store to play. But it also depends on how you play them; going strictly for an evil appearance but coming up with some fluff as them being incompetent or a running joke to the other factions might make for a twisted but humorous little dark army.

German/Nazi themed IG is a bit of a cliche in my opinion, it's been done to death. I have no problem with it personally, but as stated above don't be suprised if you're not allowed to play in tournaments / stores.
Here's a couple of links to some of the less offensive previous nazi-esque armies for inspiration.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207142.page

I like the idea, they're your toy soldiers, if anyone gets offended then that's their problem. It takes a special kind of stupid to be offended by inanimate plastic.
Also chances are, the people who are 'offended' will be part of the political correctness patrol, white Christians.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
I like the idea, they're your toy soldiers, if anyone gets offended then that's their problem. It takes a special kind of stupid to be offended by inanimate plastic.
Also chances are, the people who are 'offended' will be part of the political correctness patrol, white Christians.

LOL this.

The aim isnt to offend, and most people i have spoken to like the idea. I have a mate who's guard army looks like a ww2 american force, so having the two fight each other would be epic. Why would i bring real world history to a 40k? the models are bigger, detail easier to see. Having a swastika on my company command squads banner doesn't make me a nazi, just means i found a rather intimidating icon to use, to try and intimidate the enemies of the imperium. Besides, the imperium is way worse then nazi germany in my opinion.

This army won't have swastikkas everywhere. Maybe one or two (like one on the arm of my ss commissar) and one on a banner.

Great to be getting lots of feedback though.

You can try to justify it all you want, but the fact remains that the swastika is a badge that many people do have issues with, and using it on your toy soldiers is pretty much guaranteed to ruffle feathers.

It's up to you whether that's a reason to use it or not... but it's always a good idea to remember that this game is supposed to be a bit of light-hearted fun. Walking into a game with something that you know is potentially offensive is sort of missing the point of that a little.

Everywhere people go in life,they could potentially find something that offends them, everybody is way to sensitive these days. If i can't do something that i think looks cool because someone might get their panties in a bunch, well then that is their problem for being such a stuck up gakker. Its not done with the intention of offence, and if a German and a jew at my local gaming store are cool with it, then i don't honestly see the issue. I think it will look awesome.

I don't see why people have problems with the Swastika, its a symbol of luck.

 Lord Gearhart wrote:
I don't see why people have problems with the Swastika, its a symbol of luck.

Exactly

I'd go with wehrmacht icons and avoided the cliched swastika entirely.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
I like the idea, they're your toy soldiers, if anyone gets offended then that's their problem. It takes a special kind of stupid to be offended by inanimate plastic.
Also chances are, the people who are 'offended' will be part of the political correctness patrol, white Christians.

You forgot the mention: It takes some real idiocy to get offended by stuff printed on something as flimsy as paper! And while we are at it: Does anyone take anything made in digital form serious?
[/irony off]
9 out of 10 times. someone who uses the term "political correctness" does so only to belittle other peoples' arguments about "how to treat fellow citizens" - usually because THEY don't give a gakk about those fellow citizens. (Very common trait in well off white males in puberty, but it certainly does not stop there.) It is therefore usually a sign of maturity to leave such things in the drawer of "things that make me look like a dork" and instead use real arguments.


BACK TO TOPIC:

I agree with the other posters that there is nothing intrinsically wrong to make an evil army look like real life "evil organization". After all, WH40K, and especially IG, has some serious Wehrmacht/Nazi references anyway. But I also agree that other peoples' opinions DO matter (unless you are always playing solo or you are not playing at all, and you are living in the basement), and there are a lot of ways of doing this wrong (as in "socially not acceptable" or "tasteless" or "something I will be ashamed of once I get older").

You should seriously ask yourself why you want to use the whole plethora of SS insignia, and come up with a good answer (one with actual rational thoughts).
There is indeed nothin wrong with the swastika per se, but in the context of SS uniforms it can become a problem.

If you put a lot of effort into reproducing a despicable organization from real life, and you do nothing to ridicule or criticise it in your reproduction, or put it into a strictly historical context, you will automatically appear to be endorsing said organization - precisely because you put all that effort into it! Making Nazis look cool is not acceptable outside a comical context.

To ignore the possible issues by saying that the swastika has been a symbol for the sun for thousands of years in several cultures only shows that you probably lack the maturity to tackle this theme (same goes for Lord Gearhart). Because the 2 arguments are both valid and do not negate each other.

Not saying that you cannot do, or should not. Just saying that there are a lot of embarrassing trapholes on the way, and you need to have a good navi to steer around those, lest other people will attack and ridicule you afterwards.
And it looks as though you cared about other peoples' opinion (why else post in this forum?).

What i could do is this. SInce i was going to have the swastika on a banner, i can make a second company command squad without it. If people get offended, then can just switch it out for something not offensive. On further reading, i could base it just on the German army and use the iron cross rather than the swastika less offensive. I originally decided on Nazis as they had pretty cool uniforms (well the German army did).

 gmatthews wrote:
What i could do is this. SInce i was going to have the swastika on a banner, i can make a second company command squad without it. If people get offended, then can just switch it out for something not offensive. On further reading, i could base it just on the German army and use the iron cross rather than the swastika less offensive. I originally decided on Nazis as they had pretty cool uniforms (well the German army did).

That would indeed "soften up" the issue, and you can find loads of decals with the iron cross. More in fluff would be of course to use some form of Chaos symbol. I think if you stick to the colors black - white - red, most people will get your reference, anyway.

treslibras wrote:
9 out of 10 times. someone who uses the term "political correctness" does so only to belittle other peoples' arguments about "how to treat fellow citizens" - usually because THEY don't give a gakk about those fellow citizens. (Very common trait in well off white males in puberty, but it certainly does not stop there.)

CONGRATULATIONS! You are now the most bigoted racist person in a thread about Nazis.

Lord Gearhart wrote:I don't see why people have problems with the Swastika, its a symbol of luck.

It was, up until a crazy dictator appropriated it, branding it indelibly in most people's minds as something completely different.

gmatthews wrote:Everywhere people go in life,they could potentially find something that offends them, everybody is way to sensitive these days.

Try telling that to someone who had family directly affected by the Nazis...

If i can't do something that i think looks cool because someone might get their panties in a bunch, well then that is their problem for being such a stuck up gakker.

Wargaming is a social pastime. Not deliberately offending other participants is one of the things that makes social pastimes work. Sometimes we have to make concessions in order to 'get along'... because just going the 'I'll do what I want and screw anyone who disagrees' approach doesn't work in a group activity.

Being offended by something doesn't make you 'stuck up'... it just makes you offended.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

treslibras wrote:
9 out of 10 times. someone who uses the term "political correctness" does so only to belittle other peoples' arguments about "how to treat fellow citizens" - usually because THEY don't give a gakk about those fellow citizens. (Very common trait in well off white males in puberty, but it certainly does not stop there.)

CONGRATULATIONS! You are now the most bigoted racist person in a thread about Nazis.

No I am not. Also, please educate yourself about the terms you use before you make a fool out of yourself.
Return to topic, please.

Simply put, you just can't tell someone what they should and shouldn't be offended by. You just can't.
You can defend the swastika as a 'symbol of luck' until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains the majority of people associate it with the Nazis and the atrocities they committed. End of. Not to mention there are variations between the old symbol and the misappropriation by the Nazis, and almost every time the person in question uses it in the Nazi form (tilted 45 degrees) as opposed to the ancient way.

I can count on one hand (it's a closed fist) the amount of times someone who was offended by white supremacy, misogyny , anti-lgbt, etc etc talk changed their mind after someone who offended them "explained" why it was silly they got upset. That is to say, it doesn't happen.

Instead of trying to explain why they're dumb to get riled up over "toy soldiers", why you aren't a racist (you just like the uniforms), or any other typical defenses I see any time a thread about painting your troops as SS troopers, try understanding where someone else is coming from.

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As for your scheme, I echo what a previous poster said about doing a scheme that matches between your CSM and IG, especially if they're going to be fielded as allies.

I do kind of think a white would look good on your cultists, as you don't see crisp colors too often on Chaosy stuff. As for a symbol, if you're desperate to use something from history, try looking through ancient Hindu/East Asian symbols and see if there's something that looks cool without the added baggage of millions of murders.

treslibras wrote:
No I am not. Also, please educate yourself about the terms you use before you make a fool out of yourself.
Return to topic, please.

Please educate me then, which terms have I misused?

Are you really going to try and claim that you aren't a bigot for casting aspersions on a group of people based upon their socioeconomic status/gender/skin colour?

Or is it that you aren't a racist because you sufficiently diffused your attack on white people by including gender and economic factors?

I don't really understad how making your minis nazi themed makes them grimdark?

If you were building a flames of war army I could see the point but not with 40k. There isn't such thing as "nazi" in 40k.

I remember there was this rape diorama with eldar and imperial guard. That was pretty grimdark but not out of place.

My question to you, would only be: What do you gain from having it on there? I don't see a point in possibly inciting argument or offending someone simply because you wanted a swastika on the flag of your command squad. I totally get its themed, and that is cool, but i would stay away from the swastika. I find it just unnecessary.

As far as offending people, my personal opinion is who cares? I've worn t-shirts that are very offensive, and have had people say something. I usually tell them to f-off, and if it goes any farther than that, we can fight about it. BUT I also don't take that kind of stuff to my FLGS where children can see it, and many different people can view MY work. In public I am generally a nobody, I blend in with the rest of the crowd...for the most part. At the FLGS I am a person with a name, and just about everyone recognizes me and knows that name. See what I'm getting at here?

 Drunkspleen wrote:

treslibras wrote:
No I am not. Also, please educate yourself about the terms you use before you make a fool out of yourself.
Return to topic, please.

Please educate me then, which terms have I misused?

Are you really going to try and claim that you aren't a bigot for casting aspersions on a group of people based upon their socioeconomic status/gender/skin colour?

Or is it that you aren't a racist because you sufficiently diffused your attack on white people by including gender and economic factors?

Sent you a PM. Please keep the tread on topic.

This is such a bad idea. "I'm not aiming for racism - I just think blackface is funny" is not a winning argument.

Yes, I know you don't intend to paint your minis with blackface, but this is essentially the argument you're making. If you're not aiming for racism, you have a funny way of showing it by using iconography and themes commonly associated with racism... You can have a WW2-like theme without using negatively associated iconography.

And consider: why is the swastika an "intimidating icon?" The reason why you probably shouldn't do this is contained within the answer to that question.

The simplest way to do it is paint the flak armor in german grey and paint the uniforms like the theater/ season you want it to be. I'm doing a Guard legion to look like they're in Stalingrad in the winter. I'm doing it more because I'm a history buff and IG remind me of the Germans in the 1940's.

Its not like im modelling a little hilter and death camps for objectives, i'm borrowing a real world armies theme for use on my Guard. Doesn't make me nazi. Problem is cenorship, people want to censor everything. Bottom line, its my army and if i think it looks cool im going to do it anyway.

There's nothing wrong with making your army look like the WW2 german forces. After all, most (not all) of the soldiers were just that; soldiers fighting for their country and not racist genocidal monsters. I don't think anyone would raise an issue with an army that was just painted like the regular wehrmacht soldiers. I'd stay away from the SS though as they were a different case entirely.

With regards to the swastika, I'd personally avoid it myself. By all means maintain the style of the armband on the shoulder pads of your troops, but putting a swastika on there is too much. Yes the swastika was originally a peaceful icon, but that doesn't change the fact that it has been subverted to such an extent that 90% of the time, people who look at it will immediately think of the attrocities committed under it. This would then most likely reflect poorly on you.

Yes, you can say if people get offended it's their own fault, but considering this is supposed to be a friendly game, I don't see why you would want to incite such negative feelings in your opponent.

TL,DR: Don't put a swastika on your minis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmatthews wrote:
Its not like im modelling a little hilter and death camps for objectives, i'm borrowing a real world armies theme for use on my Guard. Doesn't make me nazi. Problem is cenorship, people want to censor everything. Bottom line, its my army and if i think it looks cool im going to do it anyway.

No, it doesn't make you a Nazi. But I can guarantee you that if other people see your army covered in swastikas, they'll damn sure consider you one. If you're happy with that, then go ahead!

Best thing is do what I did and use the iron cross in place of the swastika, it's an icon the German military uses to this day and almost no one can find offensive,