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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Didn't know what they were voting for.

I'll drag up my old argument again, but you really didn't know what you voted for. Neither do I, or anyone else, because the way the referendum was carried out was an exercise in sheer incompetence. There is no possible way of making an informed choice between status quo and "something else" when that something else isn't defined.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
@whirlwind. Hell, I may as well say this to everybody.

It's important to note that I'm not accusing anybody on dakka of saying these things. If anything, dakka has been a beacon of polite, robust debate, which has been conducted in a friendly manner. Long may it continue.

But this is what I'll say. Ever since June 24th 2016, a narrative has developed in the Remain supporting media, and amongst prominent Remain supporters, and it goes like this:

Spoiler:

Brexit supporters:

are racists and xenophobes.

automatically believe everything they read in The Mail, the Express, and The Sun.

Want to destroy human rights.

Worship Nigel Farage

Didn't know what they were voting for.

Are thick and didn't have a proper education.

Probably shouldn't have been allowed to vote in the first place...

And so on and so on and so on...

This narrative does exist. However, it is far from the dominant one. Most media outlets and all politicians trip over themselves to note that these characteristics certainly DO NOT characterise the majority, nor even average, Bexiteer.

ThIs narrative really only exists in two places:

1) Some remainers on Twitter.
2) Amongst Brexiteers, especially the hardline Brexiteer press whose agenda it suits to portray remainers as condescending, ivory-tower, elite traitors who don't care about you, your country, or your family.

Ironically, whilst the Remainer narrative is not that Brexiteers are idiots who believe everything the right wing press tells them, Brexiteers convinced that that it is kinda out themselves as exactly that.

DINLT, you're being disingenuous if you don't believe that social media didn't influence waiverers and the undecided.

I still remember the woman who said she would have voted remain right up until she was in the voting booth, then remembered about the bananas, and voted leave.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/question-time-woman-banana-is-straight-audience-member-brexit-vote-last-minute-eu-referendum-a7560781.html

That's what we're talking about here, someone who is influenced on a whim by trivial, or nonsensical rubbish, and hasn't really thought it through.

Brexit has definitely set us back; we've wasted thousands of hours and will waste many thousands more just to get back to nearly where we were. The country has all but paused waiting to see what will happen. We've lost given away 3 agencies and associated traffic already. We sill don't even know what a brexit is.

You keep talking about lacking a pig picture or plan, but can you imagine what government and businesses could have done if they didn't need to waste so much resource on Brexit?


On the Russia thing; they meddle with it, it's an accepted fact. We'll never be able to put a number on it. That doesn't make brexiteers idiots; we are all biased by advertising.

Could remain have won with a better campaign? I think so, but I wonder how many people wouldn't have voted leave I'd they thought it could win? It's also hard to run a good campaign when the other side paints an anri-expert narrative surrounded by so many lies.
Our politicians are incompetent on both sides, and the referendum should never have happened in such an incompetent way.

You really don't need to get so defensive about anything that threatens the legitimacy of the Leave vote; it's as tenuous a win as I think it's possible to get and hundreds of factors could have changed the result.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
@kilkrazy. I'm just the messenger here. I didn't write that article. If you have a problem with that article, then I suggest you diect your complaint to The Guardian and/or the CBI. ... ...

You're not the messenger. You're the spinner. The article makes no reference at all to Brexit. You chose to make that interpretation and trumpet the benefits of Brext.

I have a problem with your statement, not the article.

Here is the only thing in that article that can be attributed to Brexit:

“Nonetheless, uncertainty continues to hold back investment..."

I'd be interested in whether we truly will ever be a United Kingdom again. It's been a spiteful narrative throughout the campaign and subsequent shambles of a negotiation.

I personally hope those that voted Leave get what is coming to them, which makes me feel sad when I take a step back sometimes. Just as I hope those who voted for this government feel the force of it's callous and cold attitude. I've been told as a left leaning remainer that I should simply shut up and accept the 'loss'. So I will take enjoyment as I see others that gloated fall. Unfortunately, the demographic that did the damage won't last long enough to feel the knife.

So, what do we think? We have a country deeply divided now, and I personally don't see a way back. Maybe I'll start the remain voting foodbanks I was toying with...

Showing your true colours there, I see.

Thank you for your input. It's a genuine question, the country has never been this divided. I clearly put out my position as a reference, so as to be clear and serve as an example of the attitudes out there.

A genuine question, dripping with petty spite and contempt. Which is par for the course for Remainers in this thread.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
A genuine question, dripping with petty spite and contempt. Which is par for the course for Remainers in this thread.

It's been the M.O of the leave campaign. But this is a circular discussion.

If you could focus on the question, rather than be bothered what I think about people, that in my opinion, have ruined my child's future. You'll understand that because that is my opinion, I have those particular thoughts on those that have done this. It's not about what 'I' think, my question was if you can see a time where people that share my views, and indeed the polar opposites, can ever live in harmony.

Because you seem interested in my opinion, I'm going to say no. I think this divide is permanent. Just as liberal and conservative are incompatible, the remain voter and the leave voter will forever hold those sticks to beat the other.

I don't give a flying feth about what you have to say, when you preface it by wishing ill on me. Thats not conducive to a healthy debate.

Again, you are taking things a little personal. My opinion is that this process will create a tough environment for the British people. Financially, and culturally.

I will take pity on those that are forced to deal with this when they didn't want it. I will feel no sympathy for any Leave voter during the same period. Those people that voted for something that damages them should get nothing, no sympathy, no financial assistance. I would however, feel a moral obligation to help someone that is in a situation not of their own making

If you want to take that personally then it says more about you. I'm simply writing what a lot of people feel.

The question is, how do you get those 'like me', and those on the other side of the fence, who are shouting for hard brexit and banning foreigners now it looks like this might not be the case, to co-exist anymore

@Shadow Captain: Er, that's exactly his point? How can we get back to being a United Kingdom when this mess has divided us so deeply and personally? He even points out that he doesn't like the fact that that is how he feels.

Personally I know exactly what he's talking about, this situation makes me very, very angry. In particular when I'm told that I've got to "work extra hard to make Brexit a success"; why should I? I didn't want it, I know how ridiculously disruptive it's effects are going to be to my industry and if you wanted it, you go put the effort in to sort it out.

Edited to account for intervening post.

You're making a personal attack, of course I'm taking it personally.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I don't give a flying feth about what you have to say, when you preface it by wishing ill on me. Thats not conducive to a healthy debate.

Surely the comment was only wishing ill if you believe that the government is cold and callouses and that Brexit will have a negative impact. In which case is it not reasonable to hope that those who voted for it are the ones who feel that impact. To often in UK politics people only vote for politics when they see the harm being on someone else. Few people, especially the right, wish to except ill themselves for the greater good. No place is this more true than when talking about leaving the EU.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
A genuine question, dripping with petty spite and contempt. Which is par for the course for Remainers in this thread.

It's very hard not to feel some amount of anger and resentment at a group of people who've voted to set the living standards of our children back by generations, in a massive gamble with no clear end goal. Especially since a lot of them will be isolated from the changes.

Maybe a post-brexit UK will be better off, and my kids will be better off than me. But so far, as I see is us giving stuff away for no reason, and the very real possibility that no matter what I do, my kids will be worse off for it. All because of people voting for brexit, most of whom will play the victim when things get bad and moan at Remainers for not trying hard enough to make it work. I've already seen a huge amount of blame shifting and accusations of not being patriotic enough.

We all try to be civil, but there's a lot of problems going on underneath the surface at the moment.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You're making a personal attack, of course I'm taking it personally.

I'm attacking all those that voted to leave the EU. In a mirror of what the narrative seems to be in the country still. Instead of trying to turn things into a personal attack to avoid the question, which has a term I for the life of me can't remember, try and discuss the issue at hand. Something which others seem able to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
A genuine question, dripping with petty spite and contempt. Which is par for the course for Remainers in this thread.

It's very hard not to feel some amount of anger and resentment at a group of people who've voted to set the living standards of our children back by generations, in a massive gamble with no clear end goal. Especially since a lot of them will be isolated from the changes.

Maybe a post-brexit UK will be better off, and my kids will be better off than me. But so far, as I see is us giving stuff away for no reason, and the very real possibility that no matter what I do, my kids will be worse off for it. All because of people voting for brexit, most of whom will play the victim when things get bad and moan at Remainers for not trying hard enough to make it work. I've already seen a huge amount of blame shifting and accusations of not being patriotic enough.

We all try to be civil, but there's a lot of problems going on underneath the surface at the moment.

The ultimate get out clause, and honestly, the one I think that will break the societal camel's back. Scottish independence, a return to the troubles in Ireland...

Thebiggesthat wrote:
I'm attacking all those that voted to leave the EU.

Instead of trying to turn things into a personal attack to avoid the question

This is double think, you're simultaneously admitting to attacking people who want to leave the EU, then denying its a personal attack. Which is it, FFS?

In essence you're saying..."You're an a*******, but don't take it personally".

, which has a term I for the life of me can't remember, try and discuss the issue at hand. Something which others seem able to do.

You mean the people who agree with you and whom you aren't personally attacking? Oh gee, I wonder why.

Stop making personal attacks and wishing ill on people with a different political view to you, THEN I will start taking you seriously and engaging with your political view. Abusing people who disagree with you does not incentivize them to listen to you.

I will discuss the issue at hand when the issue at hand is discussed in a civil way.

Again, an attempt to make it about yourself to avoid an awkward question. I suggest you put me on ignore, I'll engage with those that seem to be able to act grown up.

Thebiggesthat wrote:
Again, an attempt to make it about yourself to avoid an awkward question. I suggest you put me on ignore, I'll engage with those that seem to be able to act grown up.

You hypocrite. YOU made this about me. You started this argument by wishing ill on people who voted in a way you disagree with. And you have the nerve to accuse ME of acting childish?

How about you 2 give it a rest, block each other and we try getting back on topic?

In the budget, £3bn has been set aside for planning for "all outcomes" of Brexit.

Herzlos wrote:
How about you 2 give it a rest, block each other and we try getting back on topic?

In the budget, £3bn has been set aside for planning for "all outcomes" of Brexit.

Apologies, I'll not be attempting communication with him again.

Now, does that include the the extra money for the NHS? the word 'planning' is so disconcertingly vague. Does this 3bn cover the WTO tarrifs and loss of the financial sector if we lose all passporting rights?

The term 'outdate the outrage' has had a lovely week. First with a corrupt organisation pretending they care by issuing a statement that many will swallow as 'well thats that sorted'; and again with EA and their lootbox gambling fiasco

The £3bn sounds like it's only for analysis/planning for outcomes, and not money for implementation or contingency.

My manager bought her first house three weeks ago.

She's not amused!

Ahh, that must come from another one of those trees then.

Stamp duty abolished for 1st time buyers up to 300k. And they say the Tories aren't for the working man!

UNLESS EVERYONE WANTS A UK POLITICS BAN TO BE PUT IN PLACE (LIKE THE CURRENT US POLITICS BAN)...

RULE #1 NOW.

FINAL WARNING.

I listened to some of the budget on Radio 4, and then Corbyn's response.

Some of the items sound all right, but there was a sense of tinkering around with quite piddling amounts of money when the country's problems run a lot deeper. All backed up by some selective stats.

I was most unamused by Hammond's claim to feel a buoyant sense of boundless opportunity, which characterises this great nation. That may have been true for people his age, who had the chance to go to university without paying any fees, and then buy houses that were orders of magnitude cheaper compared to salaries than nowadays.

I think a lot of young people feel a genuine sense of anger and desperation, looking at their forebears as having climbed the ladder and pulled it up after them.

It's difficult to avoid the touchy subject of Brexit, but of course the young voted overwhelmingly to Remain, and all the opportunities that afforded are to be denied them also.

Corbyn tore a wide strip off Hammond afterwards. It was a joy to hear.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I listened to some of the budget on Radio 4, and then Corbyn's response.

Some of the items sound all right, but there was a sense of tinkering around with quite piddling amounts of money when the country's problems run a lot deeper. All backed up by some selective stats.

I was most unamused by Hammond's claim to feel a buoyant sense of boundless opportunity, which characterises this great nation. That may have been true for people his age, who had the chance to go to university without paying any fees, and then buy houses that were orders of magnitude cheaper compared to salaries than nowadays.

I think a lot of young people feel a genuine sense of anger and desperation, looking at their forebears as having climbed the ladder and pulled it up after them.

It's difficult to avoid the touchy subject of Brexit, but of course the young voted overwhelmingly to Remain, and all the opportunities that afforded are to be denied them also.

Corbyn tore a wide strip off Hammond afterwards. It was a joy to hear.

Absolutely right. The Tories aren't stupid, the Baby boomers vote for them, so plenty of language like that and it's charming the elderly snake. The politically unmotivated will vote for whatever gives them what they think they want, so easy to win over with a good old witchunt, ala brexit and it's 'its them there immigrants wot took your jobs' and 'nana would have got her cancer treated if that immigrant hadn't been over here for some health tourism'.

The younger, politically motivated left are rising up, and it's fantastic to see Corbyn rising to meet the occasion.

Been at work so missed that, I shall look forward to catching up on it later. As to the budget? Not much in there that affects me really, and not exactly meta changing, but we didn't expect that.
Couple of small points I picked up, nothing for nurses, but the treasury will "react" to the next pay review recommendation, and some tinkering around with Universal Credit. 5 weeks instead of 6, and 1.6bn to help with "problems". Sadly, it's not been TM's Poll Tax, not yet at least.

Not really that exciting, but tbh, I wasn't expecting much.

A feeble budget with some some exceptionally small tinkering at the edges. As expected.