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 BoomWolf wrote:
True, the new actions may make the mere existence of a squad more valuable

Except marines can just pick up secondaries that don't require sacrificing moving and shooting.

 Dreamchild wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Dreamchild wrote:
I really don't get how so many people are confused with very straightforward math.

In 8th edition, you get about 21 cultist for 5 intercessors. In 9th edition, you get about 16 cultists for 5 intercessors. It's fairly obvious that cultists have gone up in points more.

In addition, the relative worth of cultists has dropped even more with new blast rules (and general access to blast weapons across the armies), so there's nothing to indicate that the cost hike is objectively justified.

All in all, it appears that marines will come out of all this with yet another buff in the form of relative price reduction.

There is still a chance yet that the intercessor weapons have an inflated points cost to match, not necessarily to outweigh the change, but might narrow the gap.

Another factor is opportunity cost, your 60 point cultist unit not moving or shooting to score a vp might be better than your 5 intercessors doing that.

I respectfully disagree. 16 wounds with non-existent save will crumble much faster than 10 wounds with 3+. And even before we factor in various buffs (from terrain to auras, spells, Stratagems and passive army buffs), 5 intercessors can easily wipe out the cost-equivalent cultist unit with shooting & morale combined, whereas cultists can't so much as graze the intercessors. With all those buffs, the outcome leans even further to intercessors' favour, especially given the smaller terrain size.

You're justifying my perspective though, if you raise a flag with those intercessors you lose more firepower than if you do with the cultists.

Not saying 6 point cultists are great or even reasonable in a lot of ways, but table presence is worth something beyond killing power and having a cheap throw away to waste turns earning some VP isn't a bad idea. Again it boils down to opportunity cost, you take an action to score, the 5 intercessors can kill an equivalent point unit of cultists, so do you go for an easy kill but no VP or cap the objective and leave them alive. Because the cultists are cheap and you don't care about a little min squad, you will 9/10 just cap the VP as you're wasting less that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
True, the new actions may make the mere existence of a squad more valuable

Except marines can just pick up secondaries that don't require sacrificing moving and shooting.

You may need to perform actions for primary objectives in some missions, we don't know.

Dudeface wrote:

 Dreamchild wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Dreamchild wrote:
I really don't get how so many people are confused with very straightforward math.

In 8th edition, you get about 21 cultist for 5 intercessors. In 9th edition, you get about 16 cultists for 5 intercessors. It's fairly obvious that cultists have gone up in points more.

In addition, the relative worth of cultists has dropped even more with new blast rules (and general access to blast weapons across the armies), so there's nothing to indicate that the cost hike is objectively justified.

All in all, it appears that marines will come out of all this with yet another buff in the form of relative price reduction.

There is still a chance yet that the intercessor weapons have an inflated points cost to match, not necessarily to outweigh the change, but might narrow the gap.

Another factor is opportunity cost, your 60 point cultist unit not moving or shooting to score a vp might be better than your 5 intercessors doing that.

I respectfully disagree. 16 wounds with non-existent save will crumble much faster than 10 wounds with 3+. And even before we factor in various buffs (from terrain to auras, spells, Stratagems and passive army buffs), 5 intercessors can easily wipe out the cost-equivalent cultist unit with shooting & morale combined, whereas cultists can't so much as graze the intercessors. With all those buffs, the outcome leans even further to intercessors' favour, especially given the smaller terrain size.

You're justifying my perspective though, if you raise a flag with those intercessors you lose more firepower than if you do with the cultists.

Not saying 6 point cultists are great or even reasonable in a lot of ways, but table presence is worth something beyond killing power and having a cheap throw away to waste turns earning some VP isn't a bad idea. Again it boils down to opportunity cost, you take an action to score, the 5 intercessors can kill an equivalent point unit of cultists, so do you go for an easy kill but no VP or cap the objective and leave them alive. Because the cultists are cheap and you don't care about a little min squad, you will 9/10 just cap the VP as you're wasting less that way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
True, the new actions may make the mere existence of a squad more valuable

Except marines can just pick up secondaries that don't require sacrificing moving and shooting.

You may need to perform actions for primary objectives in some missions, we don't know.

That's certainly a valuable perspective to keep in mind, and thanks for bringing the whole concept about raising flags (and whatever other mechanics 9th may bring) - I admit I haven't thought about it.

But even so, in both cases you're using 100 pts of your army to perform a "non aggressive" action - one where survivability possibly outweighs killing power - and intercessors with 2w 3+ win even on that front.

The only potential drawback for marines I could see in this whole thing is that you can't spend less than 100 pts on intercessors whereas you can on cultists. However, they still remain overcosted regarding their relative worth, and scouts still haven't been phased out, so SMs still have a better option for cheap/durable table presence than CSM I.E cultists do.

puree wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They most definitely need to be lot cheaper than marines(who btw have 2 wounds per model vs your 1...So 1 basic primaris marine is 20 pts, 3+, 2 wounds vs your 24 pts for 2 4+ save wounds).

If you ever needed more proof that GW designs things in a vacuum, look no further than this example.

I think it proves that dakka posters complain in a vacuum. Points are based on more the bit of data quoted. that 24 pts buys 2 guns vs 1, there are different other abilities (resurection vs ATSKNF etc). It may work out as bad, but not simply in the vacuum of saves and wounds.

Two guns that the marine can counter by simply standing still and firing twice

His example did make me think twice about the the new points to be fair. The simple of simple you have a 600pt army of 30 intercessors vs my army of 50 necron warriors.... dunno, not seeing the necrons winning 50% of the time if you played a million games. ofc this is not how armies are pointed, like at all. But these could be two kid's forces.

 Latro_ wrote:

puree wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They most definitely need to be lot cheaper than marines(who btw have 2 wounds per model vs your 1...So 1 basic primaris marine is 20 pts, 3+, 2 wounds vs your 24 pts for 2 4+ save wounds).

If you ever needed more proof that GW designs things in a vacuum, look no further than this example.

I think it proves that dakka posters complain in a vacuum. Points are based on more the bit of data quoted. that 24 pts buys 2 guns vs 1, there are different other abilities (resurection vs ATSKNF etc). It may work out as bad, but not simply in the vacuum of saves and wounds.

Two guns that the marine can counter by simply standing still and firing twice

But not at 12".

Dudeface wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

puree wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They most definitely need to be lot cheaper than marines(who btw have 2 wounds per model vs your 1...So 1 basic primaris marine is 20 pts, 3+, 2 wounds vs your 24 pts for 2 4+ save wounds).

If you ever needed more proof that GW designs things in a vacuum, look no further than this example.

I think it proves that dakka posters complain in a vacuum. Points are based on more the bit of data quoted. that 24 pts buys 2 guns vs 1, there are different other abilities (resurection vs ATSKNF etc). It may work out as bad, but not simply in the vacuum of saves and wounds.

Two guns that the marine can counter by simply standing still and firing twice

But not at 12".

they'll never get within 12" and if they do, ye getting assaulted and killed next turn with 3 attacks each. As i said we can play this unit vs unit game forever it's been done before a million times. Marines are objectivly better than necron warriors pt for pt already and will be more so in 9th.

now will necrons have some mental strats and thinking man's rules to offset this? probably.

yeah but the point is pretty mute... intercessors are one of the best troops in the game... maybe just beeing topped by gretchin

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
On the playtester front i agree about bias, even if its unintentional and even if they did the most balanced testing ever and fed that back it matters not.

40K for GW is a package, it always has been. The rules are one component of that. They wanna build a package which also has lore, art style, model coolness, buisness and marketability factors.

For them its like the equalizer on an old stereo, they tweak each lever until they get an overall sound they are happy with.

Well can someone please tell them to turn the knob away from Dragon Force and back towards Bolt Thrower?

Mine is stuck on Gloryhammer.

Gaahhh!!! Dang it! I looked that up. Do you know how much black metal I'll have to listen to to bleach that out of my ears? (Actually, that won't be a bad thing).

What, no Baby Metal?

No, I think what Gadzilla666 need is some good old chipmunk metal! The best bleach for your hears!
(Yes I chose Evanescence for my example, as they are widely recognized as the best metal band!)

I think it needs to go beyond Dragon Force. Needs to be Spinal Tap.
Or just crank it to Alestorm.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think it needs to go beyond Dragon Force. Needs to be Spinal Tap.
Or just crank it to Alestorm.

Better to save Alestorm for AoS. I hear people have been clambering for vampire pirates in that game lately.

Two thoughts crossed my mind when the comparison of 5 Intercessors versus 16 Cultists in 9th came up:
1. That's 5 models versus 16 for scoring purposes
2. The worse a unit is at combat the better they are for performing actions since they have a lower opportunity cost

I won't claim that it's why Cultists will be 6ppm, but I wouldn't be too shocked that those were factors.

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Two thoughts crossed my mind when the comparison of 5 Intercessors versus 16 Cultists in 9th came up:
1. That's 5 models versus 16 for scoring purposes
2. The worse a unit is at combat the better they are for performing actions since they have a lower opportunity cost

I won't claim that it's why Cultists will be 6ppm, but I wouldn't be too shocked that those were factors.

that is simply not true.if at all it shows you how useless a unit is for other then occupying space.
take gretchins... their whole purpose is exactly that. hold stuff and get in the way. but they can only do that because they are so cheap. because every point invested in them is wasted otherwise. they cant shoot or kill anyone in CC and die if look at them hard enough.
but as i said... since they are so damn cheap its ok. but if you increase their points too much i'd rather take soming else that could (if needed be) actually do something. Intercessors have range, dakka, can CC, have high morale, durable and can also be buffed. if i have to hold an object for one turn... ok next turn they can shoot, attack or do anything else, beside just blocking space. and by the way.... if you want to hold objectives... just take scouts if they also increase about 15-20% they cost as much as the cultists

EDIT:
i mean yes... i get it... you cant just look at pointcost in a vacuum, granted. But it gives you an indication of things to come. 9th wont be as different as 8th was to 7th.

i really hope the 'perform action' stuff will be important as it brings a whole new element to the game. Tactics and army composition will be effected and new tactics will be requiered, other than shoot stuff and make things go bang to win. which would be welcomed by me and would give your point much more vadility

Cultists are also less vulnerable to multi damage weapons.

To wipe out each unit in turn with your standard D1 weapon will take, respectively, 10 and 16 shots.

But, turn D2 or more damage weapons on them? And it drops to 5 for the Intercessors....but remains 16 for Cultists.

Yes, Intercessors are far more resilient. They’re tougher and have vastly superior armour. But the risk remains. 5 Autocannons can wipe out 5 Intercessors, but they can still only ever kill a total of 10 Cultists (two shots each for the Autocannon). So even in worst case scenarios for the Intercessor and Cultists, the Cultists will still be left with 6 models on the table after that batch of shooting.

In turn, when it comes to more exotic builds (say, Nidzilla, Armoured Company etc), Intercessors are just far more vulnerable, because of the plethora of multi damage weapons. A Carnifex with boosted attacks and all the re- rolls in the world will still chew through the Intercessors faster than the Cultists.

And all that time they remain on the board, the Cultists are still capable of achieving something. Sure, they’re pretty unlikely to go smashing up enemy units....but they can scuttle off into cover, ready to make a late game break for an objective, or block the foe from charging a more critical unit.

Their very disposability is a factor in their points value, or at least it should be. Because all the time they’re being a nuisance of some kind, they’re a distraction for the enemy’s finite kill potential in a given turn. Yes, they’ll die to a stiff breeze, but don’t die in any greater number against really nasty stuff.

Should probably add I’m not saying 6 point Cultists are well priced, as we simply cannot know that now until we’ve seen how everything else stacks up. Just trying to illustrate that points are about more than just kill power and armour save.

actually I find the points increases in general terms a good thing, I used to play Flames of War, that also had a system whereby roughly 1,750-2,000 points was a game. a lot of things were in 5 point increments but it worked.

they decided that was too complicated and re-scaled for 50,75 & 100 point games. the loss of granularity consigned a lot of units to the scrap yard and caused all sorts of problems when they picked the wrong units as the baseline (e.g. there are a lot of lower end Soviet units they simply cannot include without using fractions)

its nice to see a company admitting how this works and accepting you need space at the lower end so uplifting things a bit.

for me I would make something like an unarmed Grot be 10 points and work from there, I would also go back to upgrades being costed against the unit/character who will have them and not universally - I liked the universal costs when they came out, I admit I was wrong, it basically doesn't work - GW have admitted as much with differential pricing in the Guard list for BS3+/BS4+ units.

No idea what a marine, new or old, would come out as on that system but it will be high enough you have space to be flexible with it.

it also provides space to avoid zero cost upgrades, everything can be given a cost, even if only 1 point.

and if they did it right they could even get to the point where a game of 40k was scaled around using '40k' points, bigger numbers are not scary

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cultists are also less vulnerable to multi damage weapons.

To wipe out each unit in turn with your standard D1 weapon will take, respectively, 10 and 16 shots.

But, turn D2 or more damage weapons on them? And it drops to 5 for the Intercessors....but remains 16 for Cultists.

Yes, Intercessors are far more resilient. They’re tougher and have vastly superior armour. But the risk remains. 5 Autocannons can wipe out 5 Intercessors, but they can still only ever kill a total of 10 Cultists (two shots each for the Autocannon). So even in worst case scenarios for the Intercessor and Cultists, the Cultists will still be left with 6 models on the table after that batch of shooting.

In turn, when it comes to more exotic builds (say, Nidzilla, Armoured Company etc), Intercessors are just far more vulnerable, because of the plethora of multi damage weapons. A Carnifex with boosted attacks and all the re- rolls in the world will still chew through the Intercessors faster than the Cultists.

And all that time they remain on the board, the Cultists are still capable of achieving something. Sure, they’re pretty unlikely to go smashing up enemy units....but they can scuttle off into cover, ready to make a late game break for an objective, or block the foe from charging a more critical unit.

Their very disposability is a factor in their points value, or at least it should be. Because all the time they’re being a nuisance of some kind, they’re a distraction for the enemy’s finite kill potential in a given turn. Yes, they’ll die to a stiff breeze, but don’t die in any greater number against really nasty stuff.

Should probably add I’m not saying 6 point Cultists are well priced, as we simply cannot know that now until we’ve seen how everything else stacks up. Just trying to illustrate that points are about more than just kill power and armour save.

In your example of firing autocannons at the two units, an autocannon fired by a BS3+ model kills 8.7pts of 20-point intercessors and 6.7 points of 6-point cultists. A difference small enough that if you choose to take the resilent chapter trait (which cultists do not have access to at all) the space marines are tougher pound-for-pound. Vs autcannons. Compared to ing cultists.

And that's with, as you said, the autocannon losing HALF its damage efficiency versus the cultists.

Intercessors are fething absurd. I'm sorry. There's no universe where you can square intercessors at 20pts vs cultists at 6, not with the mechanics we know now. I'll be the first to eat my hat if morale is some super crazy tilted towards hordes thing that eats elite units for breakfast or something, but one, I find that highly unlikely given how much GW reaaaaaally likes space marines, and two, we aren't bringing in the terrain system we do know about which also massively favors marines.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cultists are also less vulnerable to multi damage weapons.

To wipe out each unit in turn with your standard D1 weapon will take, respectively, 10 and 16 shots.

But, turn D2 or more damage weapons on them? And it drops to 5 for the Intercessors....but remains 16 for Cultists.


Yes, Intercessors are far more resilient. They’re tougher and have vastly superior armour. But the risk remains. 5 Autocannons can wipe out 5 Intercessors, but they can still only ever kill a total of 10 Cultists (two shots each for the Autocannon). So even in worst case scenarios for the Intercessor and Cultists, the Cultists will still be left with 6 models on the table after that batch of shooting.


In turn, when it comes to more exotic builds (say, Nidzilla, Armoured Company etc), Intercessors are just far more vulnerable, because of the plethora of multi damage weapons. A Carnifex with boosted attacks and all the re- rolls in the world will still chew through the Intercessors faster than the Cultists.

yes. and then you just used 5 autocannon shots on a troop. those shots could have gone into more heavy stuff... which is a net-positive for marines if you ask me. (troops can draw fire, that would otherwise threaten more important things in my army ) and this point is further moot, becauseof the new blast rules which in turn make the cultist far more vurnable to blast weapons...

And all that time they remain on the board, the Cultists are still capable of achieving something. Sure, they’re pretty unlikely to go smashing up enemy units....but they can scuttle off into cover, ready to make a late game break for an objective, or block the foe from charging a more critical unit.

Their very disposability is a factor in their points value, or at least it should be. Because all the time they’re being a nuisance of some kind, they’re a distraction for the enemy’s finite kill potential in a given turn. Yes, they’ll die to a stiff breeze, but don’t die in any greater number against really nasty stuff.

Should probably add I’m not saying 6 point Cultists are well priced, as we simply cannot know that now until we’ve seen how everything else stacks up. Just trying to illustrate that points are about more than just kill power and armour save.

that all is true for intercessors too thought, only they do a far better job while doing it because they can actually threaten stuff and are much more resilient :/
before, i could get two squads for one with the quadruple amounts of bodies, now its only one squad and triple the amount of bodies... how is that better than before??? All you said is true today in 8th. the comparision only becomes worse for the cultists, because of the rules that were leaked and the point increase! and that is all i am saying.

Agreed on above. The GW had right idea in easing up lower end point scales but didn't go far enough and are mixing it up with also balance changes.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cultists are also less vulnerable to multi damage weapons.

To wipe out each unit in turn with your standard D1 weapon will take, respectively, 10 and 16 shots.

But, turn D2 or more damage weapons on them? And it drops to 5 for the Intercessors....but remains 16 for Cultists.

Yes, Intercessors are far more resilient. They’re tougher and have vastly superior armour. But the risk remains. 5 Autocannons can wipe out 5 Intercessors, but they can still only ever kill a total of 10 Cultists (two shots each for the Autocannon). So even in worst case scenarios for the Intercessor and Cultists, the Cultists will still be left with 6 models on the table after that batch of shooting.

In turn, when it comes to more exotic builds (say, Nidzilla, Armoured Company etc), Intercessors are just far more vulnerable, because of the plethora of multi damage weapons. A Carnifex with boosted attacks and all the re- rolls in the world will still chew through the Intercessors faster than the Cultists.

And all that time they remain on the board, the Cultists are still capable of achieving something. Sure, they’re pretty unlikely to go smashing up enemy units....but they can scuttle off into cover, ready to make a late game break for an objective, or block the foe from charging a more critical unit.

Their very disposability is a factor in their points value, or at least it should be. Because all the time they’re being a nuisance of some kind, they’re a distraction for the enemy’s finite kill potential in a given turn. Yes, they’ll die to a stiff breeze, but don’t die in any greater number against really nasty stuff.

Should probably add I’m not saying 6 point Cultists are well priced, as we simply cannot know that now until we’ve seen how everything else stacks up. Just trying to illustrate that points are about more than just kill power and armour save.

In your example of firing autocannons at the two units, an autocannon fired by a BS3+ model kills 8.7pts of 20-point intercessors and 6.7 points of 6-point cultists. A difference small enough that if you choose to take the resilent chapter trait (which cultists do not have access to at all) the space marines are tougher pound-for-pound. Vs autcannons. Compared to ing cultists.

And that's with, as you said, the autocannon losing HALF its damage efficiency versus the cultists.

Intercessors are fething absurd. I'm sorry. There's no universe where you can square intercessors at 20pts vs cultists at 6, not with the mechanics we know now. I'll be the first to eat my hat if morale is some super crazy tilted towards hordes thing that eats elite units for breakfast or something, but one, I find that highly unlikely given how much GW reaaaaaally likes space marines, and two, we aren't bringing in the terrain system we do know about which also massively favors marines.

Isn't it kinda funny, that the Premiere Antiprimaris gun that is the AC, is worse against them then against their non prefered target?

It is very hard to see how all the changes previewed - which directly nerf cultists vis a vis 8th edition while buffing intercessors - add up to intercessors getting a much smaller points increase than cultists.

That doesn't mean it's impossible there are a lot of rules they haven't revealed that make low-points-value horde units much more valuable. But literally every piece of information we have so far is to the contrary.

So what's on the docket for tonight's preview?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So what's on the docket for tonight's preview?

They don't want to cause more arguments, so instead of talking about 9th edition, the GW guys are going to instead talk about Cyberpunk 2077.

 ziggurattt wrote:
They don't want to cause more arguments, so instead of talking about 9th edition, the GW guys are going to instead talk about Cyberpunk 2077.

Good choice. Much safer topic.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Intercessors increased in points by 50% more than cultists did, true or false? Cultists received 33% less of a points increase than intercessors did, true or false?

I didn’t say percentages don’t work, I said that they present a skewed picture as I just illustrated. Percentages only work when comparing reasonably close items, otherwise so many other variables can account for the variance in outcomes that a direct comparison is pointless at best and maliciously misleading at worst.

You didn't illustrate anything. The stats you posted are irrelevant. Why are you dividing the pts increase of the intercessors by the pts increase of cultists? What question does that calculation seek to answer?

I can take any 2 random pt values and divide them to come up with a percentage too. That doesn't make the percentage meaningful. But the percent increase in cost however is meaningful. You get a certain amount of utility for the pts you pay. For cultists that utility is now 50% more expensive. For primaris it's 17%. Unless the underlying utility of each unit also changed a comparable amount under the new ruleset the cultists received a nerf relative to primaris. How is this difficult to understand?

I’m with Leth on this one. No matter what they did with Cultist points, they’d go up more than the 17% of Intercessors, because just 1 point is worth 25% for a cultist. The funny thing is, even at 6ppm there’s not much granularity with them, they’re still so damn cheap. But at least every point isn’t worth a quarter of your cost.

You know that if they wanted to they could have increased intercessors by more than 17%, right? There are numbers greater than 20. In fact there's quite a lot of them!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Intercessors increased in points by 50% more than cultists did, true or false? Cultists received 33% less of a points increase than intercessors did, true or false?

I didn’t say percentages don’t work, I said that they present a skewed picture as I just illustrated. Percentages only work when comparing reasonably close items, otherwise so many other variables can account for the variance in outcomes that a direct comparison is pointless at best and maliciously misleading at worst.

You didn't illustrate anything. The stats you posted are irrelevant. Why are you dividing the pts increase of the intercessors by the pts increase of cultists? What question does that calculation seek to answer?

I can take any 2 random pt values and divide them to come up with a percentage too. That doesn't make the percentage meaningful. But the percent increase in cost however is meaningful. You get a certain amount of utility for the pts you pay. For cultists that utility is now 50% more expensive. For primaris it's 17%. Unless the underlying utility of each unit also changed a comparable amount under the new ruleset the cultists received a nerf relative to primaris. How is this difficult to understand?

I’m with Leth on this one. No matter what they did with Cultist points, they’d go up more than the 17% of Intercessors, because just 1 point is worth 25% for a cultist. The funny thing is, even at 6ppm there’s not much granularity with them, they’re still so damn cheap. But at least every point isn’t worth a quarter of your cost.

You know that if they wanted to they could have increased intercessors by more than 17%, right? There are numbers greater than 20. In fact there's quite a lot of them!

Hell, they could've doubled the cost of everything and get really good granularity there, but instead we get the arbitrary increases that probably have no thought behind them.

They could have doubled everything and we'd all be playing 3k just to get most of our toys back.

Nothing about the rules nice focus GW

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/16/indomitus-focus-get-on-your-bike/

Matrindur wrote:
Nothing about the rules nice focus GW

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/16/indomitus-focus-get-on-your-bike/

"As you can see, the new bike is basically the same as the old bike. We made the rules better so you'll buy it though. Paint it whatever color! We can't wait to see you buy it and replace the thing you already bought that is the same!

Primaris Marines: The Iphone 11 of Warhammer. Now with 3 scopes, and in this metaphor, every weapon option is a headphone jack."

puree wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They most definitely need to be lot cheaper than marines(who btw have 2 wounds per model vs your 1...So 1 basic primaris marine is 20 pts, 3+, 2 wounds vs your 24 pts for 2 4+ save wounds).

If you ever needed more proof that GW designs things in a vacuum, look no further than this example.

I think it proves that dakka posters complain in a vacuum. Points are based on more the bit of data quoted. that 24 pts buys 2 guns vs 1, there are different other abilities (resurection vs ATSKNF etc). It may work out as bad, but not simply in the vacuum of saves and wounds.

Marine gets 2 shots at s4 -1ap out to 30"

2 Necrons warriors get 2 at s4-1ap out to 24".....

Sure the warriors can move and still get those 2 shots pushing there range to...




29"....










Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Intercessors increased in points by 50% more than cultists did, true or false? Cultists received 33% less of a points increase than intercessors did, true or false?

I didn’t say percentages don’t work, I said that they present a skewed picture as I just illustrated. Percentages only work when comparing reasonably close items, otherwise so many other variables can account for the variance in outcomes that a direct comparison is pointless at best and maliciously misleading at worst.

You didn't illustrate anything. The stats you posted are irrelevant. Why are you dividing the pts increase of the intercessors by the pts increase of cultists? What question does that calculation seek to answer?

I can take any 2 random pt values and divide them to come up with a percentage too. That doesn't make the percentage meaningful. But the percent increase in cost however is meaningful. You get a certain amount of utility for the pts you pay. For cultists that utility is now 50% more expensive. For primaris it's 17%. Unless the underlying utility of each unit also changed a comparable amount under the new ruleset the cultists received a nerf relative to primaris. How is this difficult to understand?

Honestly why is anyone trying to compare percentages of points increase between two units in two different codexes whose points costs aren't even that close to each other to start with?

Because that's the entire purpose of points....

I think it's that time of day where you need more coffee

Matrindur wrote:
Nothing about the rules nice focus GW

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/16/indomitus-focus-get-on-your-bike/

Primaris Bikes! They exist!


WarCom's Twitters suggests that they will be updating the article with actual rules though.

I mean the Bikes REALLY needed to be redone anyway.