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Jaon wrote:And whats the storm bolter shuffle? Is it a valid tactic or just a saying?

Line up and spam bolter shots?

Move back 6", fire Storm Bolters, move back 6", fire Storm Bolters, repeat ad nauseum and then get the charge off.

From what I'm seeing, henchmen are probably one of the best things in the codex. Wound allocation games, wide variety of abilities, cheap meatshields, and good transports makes for a winner!

An entire 30 Boy mob with Klaw Nob will only kill 3-4 of them, and be annihilated in return, even if the Orks charge. That's not bad.

Dunno, orks seem to be the less troublesome of the GKs opponents.
Lets assume logically that the GK squad (normal strike squad) is allowed 2 turns of shooting before the orks running towards them get into Cc.

That is some 13 dead orks and that is without having any otre weapons in the squad like psycannons, holocaust etc..
When close enough it´s a 50-50 on who gets the charge as "run" isnt exact and the GKs can still shoot stormbolters and move to countercharge at the last moment.
So for the sake of worst case possible lets assume the orks gets the charge.
GKs strike first, probably getting 20 attacks (since a 1A GK for 20p is just to impossible).
10 hit and with hammerhand they wound at S5.
Making for 7 dead orks (maybe 8 with the justicars extra attack but lets say 7).

Orks hitting back will be 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead GKs plus 2 more dead GKs from the claw nob.
Orks loose Cc with 7 to 4 loosing 3 more orks to taking fearless wounds.

After first turn of Cc the score is now 6 Gks vs7 orks.

Next turn sees 12 GK attacks hitting 6-7 and killing 4-5 orks.
Claw kills 2 GKs.
Orks loose with 2 to 4 attempt to break and run and are caught and annihilated.
4GKs left.

GK lost 120 points, orks lost 240p with orks getting the charge and GKs only shooting twice with basic stormbolters AND orks getting the charge.

In "reality" the orks might use terrain and get saves but add another turn of shooting and the GKs might "step back" for yet anotehr turn of shooting.
The GK squad will also be geared with powerful heavy or flame weapons.


The really interesting thing is how many attacks do GKs get?
Statline says a puny A1 which would be totally ridiculous and overnerfed from the current codex.
Will the stormbolter give them +1A?
Will they get charge bonus ont op of that or just?

Meaning are GKs A1 with A2 only on the charge or are they A2 (A1 with special/heavy weapon) and A3 on the charge?
I fear the GKs will end up as A1 and A2 only on the charge as a 20p base cost and power weapon as standard seems pretty balanced at 20p base cost.

With A1 GKs will people ever take PAGKs? They would be total crap at melee and the strike squads wouldnt even be able to handle basic horde squads, only SM tac squads in melee but SM tacs will annihilate an equivalent GK strike squad in shooting so what´s the deal.

Pyriel- wrote:
overnerfed from the current codex.

I wouldnt worry about that, they are SM, and GW isnt likely to nerf SM much if at all. Besides, I fully expect this codex to continue the trend of "more powerful than the last one" that GW seems to do.

After all nothing sucks in the newbs and WAAC gamers like the newest army being the most powerful...until the next release comes out...

So Aegis armor got changed...I like the boost but I have to say the old mini psychic hood did come in handy more than i see this coming in handy.

ATSKNF-very disappointed to lose fearless

Combat squads-this is stupendous...being able to split up such elite units is necessary

Brotherhood of Psykers-I am assuming this will be a choose the highest leadership in the army for psychic test ability

Psyker Mastery Levels-Makes sense that GW would start to turn towards such fantasy based rules

Preferred Enemy: Demons-makes sense and doesn't ruin daemons...

Nemesis Force Halberds:.-Was initially very let down by this but every squad has hammerhand and therefore S5 most of the time...while i did lose WS5 (big letdown) having S5 on I5 with 3 attacks on the charge...money

Psycannon:-We knew we would probably see two modes of shooting...honestly the AP3 rumor was ridiculous and this makes much more sense...rending...f*** yeah...especially when combined with the no LoS necessary rule

Incinerator:-They had to replace "no invulnerable saves" with something but rending is ridiculous

Personal Teleporter:If this makes my troops into fast attack...not worth it...if it keeps my troops as troops...oh man this is insane...means I have a last turn dash of 31" minimum

Hammer Hand: They really dumbed this psychic power down...but made it available and applicable to everyone...I like

Warp Quake: Generally not the best power here...but seeing as normal squads just get it...it definitely has its uses

Holocaust:Same as usual...just hope it's still a close combat attack

Quicksilver:saw that certain units had psych out grenades...so this power wont be used as much i think because it does the same thing.

Warp-Rift:-got to know the downside to this before i make jugdements...

The Summoning: not bad...but boring

Smite: Probably never going to use it in comparison to other powers

Might of Titan: I want to know if this can be used in conjunction with the psycannons...because whatever they're shooting is destroyed. 16 S7 Rending shots with 2d6 armor pen...oh goodness

The Shrouding: complete cheese...tasty

Mind Blades: my goodness...i cant believe some of these powers...

Vortex of Doom: Good...but not my favorite.

Sanctury: activated during the enemy assault phase?...if so...game changer

Psychic Communion (reserves are going to be big for this army)

Heroic Sacrafice (Champion only): As I saw someone say on BoLS...trygon just killed my 5 man unit?...goodbye...this is ridiculous

Cleansing Flame (Purifiers only): Really excited to use purifiers...hoping purifiers are simply incinerator gks

Astral Aim (Purgation Squad only): Combined with certain other psychic shooting powers...insane

Reconstruction (techmarines only): Techmarine has a psychic power?...i will take it

Fortitude (Vehicle only): vehicles are psychic?...i will take it...hammer of witches is gonna suck...now we know why gw said things would be hard to kill...Fortitude+Shrouding+Reconstruction

Zone of Banishment(Captain Stern only):Oh Stern...you're a silly b****

Apothicary:-FnP 2 wound terminators?.....bah....

Lord Draigo-As Caboose pointed out to me...doesn't call him an IC

Brother Captain Stern: It's my boy Stern...if he still counts as a Grandmaster...this is my character...

Inquisitor Corteaz: Henchmen army?...I am tempted...

Inquisitor Karamazov - Witch Hunter-What?
Inquisitor Valeria - Xenos Hunter-What?

Grand Master: -Oh my goodness these guys change the army...

Librarian-Can buy powers on cheap!

Inquisitor:-kind of mediocre to bad...but they look like they can be tricked out...and look...STUBBORN

Arco Flagelant-Fun!

Banisher...I can see the use...liking the eviscerator...but not going to be used with me probably

Crusader:-Storm shields...there we go

Demonhost:-for henchmen armies only i guaruntee...hope they're fun or slightly useful

Deathcult Assassin:-I had fun with these before...doubt they'll change much

Weaponsmith:-this guy is insane...got to be expensive.

Mystic:I have mystics?...i wonder what the do...

Psyker:IG PSB?...do I get everything?

Warrior Acolyte:Jack of All trades

Purifier Squad: Ah...they're a squad...hopefully I can put them in a chimera then...

Venerable Dreadnought: Venerable...and has fortitude...bahahahaha

Paladin Terminator:-seriously...seriously...put them in a stormraven...balls

Vindicare-first time i use this guy i am going to shoot the invulnerable save of ghazgull

Assassin Profile-insane stats...that callidus just got a boost...bs 8?...vindicare win

Grey Knight Terminator-cant see using these when there are paladins...sorry

Grey Knights Strike Squad (the regular GK's)-20 points...and dumbed down...to add synergy with the rest of the insane options that then makes them awesome again...I will be running much more of this than the paladin cheese.

Razorback-New more survivable razor knight spam coming soon!

StormRaven:-The only thing i needed to make the army better

Purgation Squad-what's a psylencer?...who cares...psycannons are awesome at 20 pts...

Nemesis Dreadknight (MC)-Hope he can go in a stormraven...he is an MC though...but look at this guy...two super guns and power weapons...T7 and a 2+...Its a dream

Ghost Knights -Hard to take this seriously...they must die after he dies...or the character is insanely expensive

So there's my initial synopsis after seeing these rules posted on several sites...but then again...this could be complete bull...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/02/40k-rumors-grey-knights-latest.html

Is where I found a..."more complete" list of rules...yadayadayada...something about a grain of salt...

ductvader wrote:...The Shrouding: complete cheese...tasty...

That really turns me off to things... you can't have cheese without whine.

Don't worry...when you bring the cheese your opponent will supply the whine.

I'm surprised you think giving units a 5-6+ cover save is cheese.

Oh believe me...I appreciate it...I love it...but rumors say you get stealth with a minimum 5+ in the open...stealth...so a 3+ behind hard cover.

ductvader wrote:Oh believe me...I appreciate it...I love it...but rumors say you get stealth with a minimum 5+ in the open...stealth...so a 3+ behind hard cover.

Scouts can get the same thing. Are they cheesy, too?

No...but My FnP Paladin Termies, DreadKnight, Land Raider, and everything else are much hardier than scouts...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh...and I wonder if techmarines can bolster defenses...interesting...

Maybe, but I think it's far too easy to talk about imbalance when we haven't seen costs yet.

So from what I've read on the GK rumors...

(KEY: < = Weak Against, > = Strong Against)

GK < Eldar
GK > Tyranids
GK << Tau
GK >> Dark Eldar
GK <<< IG
GK >>> Chaos Daemons
GK ? Necrons
GK ? Chaos Space Marines
GK <<<<<<<<< MEQ(5th Edition)
Everyone but SOB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SOB (So they are probably going to Squat-land)


Thoughts on the chart?

~DAR

Not sure what you are basing any of that on. GK are weak against Tau and MEQ? Serious?

A little early to pull the tier / rock-paper-scissors arguments out, considering we haven't seen the whole codex yet and only a couple of theoretical builds emerged.

Also, how does the GK codex change SOB/WH, since right now they have several pretty competitive builds and the GK codex literally does not change any of that.

ductvader wrote:Oh...and I wonder if techmarines can bolster defenses...interesting...

Purgation/PAGK spam with mass psycannons would be quite viable if this was the case. 2+ everything saves... whoo.

I agree, trying to play the Rock-Paper-Scissors game without an actual codex will only end in tiers.

bhsman wrote:I agree, trying to play the Rock-Paper-Scissors game without an actual codex will only end in tiers.

lol win.

sourclams wrote:

ductvader wrote:Oh...and I wonder if techmarines can bolster defenses...interesting...

Purgation/PAGK spam with mass psycannons would be quite viable if this was the case. 2+ everything saves... whoo.

2+ cover, Astral Aim, Might of Titan, Purgation Squad...ohhhh?

Haven't heard anything on if Might of Titan is only CC or not...

The way it's written it looks CC-only.

And quite frankly I couldn't imagine it *not* being CC only.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:So from what I've read on the GK rumors...

(KEY: < = Weak Against, > = Strong Against)

GK < Eldar
GK > Tyranids
GK << Tau
GK >> Dark Eldar
GK <<< IG
GK >>> Chaos Daemons
GK ? Necrons
GK ? Chaos Space Marines
GK <<<<<<<<< MEQ(5th Edition)
Everyone but SOB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SOB (So they are probably going to Squat-land)


Thoughts on the chart?

~DAR

really that good against dark eldar? with talos's and incubi? dont forget ravagers with d cannons. in close combat with wyches? it depends on the build as to how well they will do. and why do you think the SOB will go the way of the squats rumor says new codex next year.

I don't really see a lot of Gouda in what's being posted so far, but I think it's because I've had my cheese compass beaten into numbness by the current guard codex.

If GK/Inquisition can reliably beat the guard parking lot and their 130 point flying, scout, triple linked lascannon troop transports we can possibly discuss cheese.

Until then, I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

bhsman wrote:Move back 6", fire Storm Bolters, move back 6", fire Storm Bolters, repeat ad nauseum and then get the charge off.

Better yet, if your unit has access to Holocaust:

Marshal Augustine wrote:Holocast can be fired. Then the unit can fire.

As for the whole army comparison, that's so slowed when we don't even have the codex and far as we know the recent leaks are from a date source.
I oh so remember all the cries of Tyranids being overpowered and cheesy. And then we got the codex.

I imagine that a DE player using the Crucible of Malewhatever could easily make the GK player cry if he's using a costly deathstar unit.
And I don't play Witchhunters, but don't they get a lot of tools to murder psykers?

That's actually what worries me the most, that the entire army's effectiveness is based on constantly using powers. But then you meet the Eldar or any of the many anti-psyker tools out there and suddenly the whole army is taking a sharp drop in effectiveness.

Vhalyar wrote:That's actually what worries me the most, that the entire army's effectiveness is based on constantly using powers. But then you meet the Eldar or any of the many anti-psyker tools out there and suddenly the whole army is taking a sharp drop in effectiveness.

This.

If Grey Knights don't have anything to counter psychic defense (hoods, runes, SitW), then this codex will be completely ed. If Ld 9 on Justicars turns out to be true, then even a Psychic Hood nullifies Hammerhand on an equal roll.

Vhalyar wrote:I imagine that a DE player using the Crucible of Malewhatever could easily make the GK player cry if he's using a costly deathstar unit.
And I don't play Witchhunters, but don't they get a lot of tools to murder psykers?

That's actually what worries me the most, that the entire army's effectiveness is based on constantly using powers. But then you meet the Eldar or any of the many anti-psyker tools out there and suddenly the whole army is taking a sharp drop in effectiveness.

Njal has his 3+ staff of 'No' and RP's have 4+. Witchhunters still have infinite range Ld10 Psy Hood and I could see myself fielding an Inq with 'Hammer of the Witches' after GK come out.

20 Pt Psy Power - Roll a D6, that number of Enemy Psykers must pass a leadership test or Perils. No LOS or range and can be used in assault.

Cpt. Rusty Hook wrote: and why do you think the SOB will go the way of the squats rumor says new codex next year.

...because there's a segment of wargamers that for whatever reason can't deal with the concept of a female themed army in the sausage fest that is the 40th Millennium and have to bring up how the army is going away whenever they can when Necrons have an earlier book but suffer none of those stupid rumors.

On the other hand are the creepsters that model breasts onto their space marines but it takes all kinds.

You can toss in the Culexus as being a pretty nasty trick too.
Hopefully there's something in the final version's army wide rules or in the wargear that can protect your units from having their effectiveness badly sheared or being outright destroyed.

Let's avoid this particular detour so as to keep the thread unlocked.

LucasLAD wrote:I don't really see a lot of Gouda in what's being posted so far, but I think it's because I've had my cheese compass beaten into numbness by the current guard codex.

If GK/Inquisition can reliably beat the guard parking lot and their 130 point flying, scout, triple linked lascannon troop transports we can possibly discuss cheese.

Until then, I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

It didn't help that you regularly played against one of the most honestly ruthless Guard players around every other week.

pretre wrote:
Njal has his 3+ staff of 'No'...

This seriously made me laugh out loud, a lot.

On topic: If GKs get their mobility issues cleared up through teleporters, the summoning and access to decent transports that get immune to shaken/stunned results? I think they'll be okay against said "guard parking lot," (which also made me lol.)

pretre wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:I imagine that a DE player using the Crucible of Malewhatever could easily make the GK player cry if he's using a costly deathstar unit.
And I don't play Witchhunters, but don't they get a lot of tools to murder psykers?

That's actually what worries me the most, that the entire army's effectiveness is based on constantly using powers. But then you meet the Eldar or any of the many anti-psyker tools out there and suddenly the whole army is taking a sharp drop in effectiveness.

Njal has his 3+ staff of 'No' and RP's have 4+. Witchhunters still have infinite range Ld10 Psy Hood and I could see myself fielding an Inq with 'Hammer of the Witches' after GK come out.

20 Pt Psy Power - Roll a D6, that number of Enemy Psykers must pass a leadership test or Perils. No LOS or range and can be used in assault.

I agree that's a problem, but it becomes much less of a problem if Psy-disruption model gets BOOMHEADSHOT-ed by a Vindicaire.