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If Pike gets fired the Police Union will sue his employer (State of California or University of California guess it depends on who pays the bill) and he'll have a ridiculous multi-million dollar pension. You can 't fire public workers for executing thier duties inside the framework you provide them with, otherwise teachers stop teaching and firefighters stop going into burning buildings for fear of losing thier job whilst doing it.

There is also a discussion to be had around the use of pepper spray for physical coercion of non-violent, unmoving suspects.

Kilkrazy wrote:There is also a discussion to be had around the use of pepper spray for physical coercion of non-violent, unmoving suspects.

Unmoving, but breaking the law. Pepper spray is very low on the escalation of force scale. What do you propose, should the police not do their jobs unless the perps are violent? If they should do their jobs, what tool do you want them to use that limits harm to the perp and does not expose the cop to undue risk?

The video is interesting. First lieutenant pike, the brave soul, pepper sprays the students, then the other police move in and cuff them and remove them. The police could have just skipped the pepper-spray. The kafka-esque part of this is that lying prone is considered "active resistance" according to the police "matrix of force" and thus justifies the application of pepper-spray. Surreal.

We think of a full on OTV as the only way to fly. Some officer and god forbid probably some NCO thought side plates, and water wings were good ideas too. Don't be fooled into thinking that if it doesn't look like OUR duck that it isn't one. There are plate carriers that look like uniform shirts without close inspection.

Damn a mind set. Thanks for the correction. Guess we're all a product of our environment

AustonT wrote:If Pike gets fired the Police Union will sue his employer (State of California or University of California guess it depends on who pays the bill) and he'll have a ridiculous multi-million dollar pension. You can 't fire public workers for executing thier duties inside the framework you provide them with, otherwise teachers stop teaching and firefighters stop going into burning buildings for fear of losing thier job whilst doing it.

The person running the campus states that she gave instructions to the police prior to the raid not to use any force. If that is truly the case and the Chief of Police as well as Pike were informed of that mandate, then they have really nothing to sue over.

Of course we are now in the "cover your a**" phase of the incident, so who knows what will happen.

If someone was smart they have written/documented a timeline up to the event. The standard operating procedure going to be scrutinized against the action of Lt. Pike ie did Lt. Pike follow all the steps that lead up to the event. One thing will go his way and not many people seen it. Was he did in fact go right down the line and informed each individual student.

Don't think of it as a correction, just free information. I met a guy going to ROTC while working as a full time Phoenix PD officer, dedicated man. Anyway I saw him once coming off duty and poked fun at his "tactical vest" which on him looked thinner and less substantial than ACU Molle. Then he showed me his ballistic inserts. I were surprised. Some of the police gear is hot stuff, we wont ever see it because it would be popular opinion suicide to reduce body armor below rifle protection. You know like making a high mobility all terrain vehicle without encumbering it with armor and then bending to the public will to bolt armor plating onto it making it into a low mobility road terrain vehicle instead of procuring mraps in the first place. /deep breath...

olympia wrote:The video is interesting. First lieutenant pike, the brave soul, pepper sprays the students, then the other police move in and cuff them and remove them. The police could have just skipped the pepper-spray. The kafka-esque part of this is that lying prone is considered "active resistance" according to the police "matrix of force" and thus justifies the application of pepper-spray. Surreal.

As I said, its a tough one for me. I dont generally support protester types, and if they full on refused to move despite being asked I can see why the rozzers would get annoyed. But at the same time, the pepper spray did just seem to be totally needless.

I think I would have handled it better. Surely an aggressive warning would have been enough? Something light hearted to break the ice, maybe like..

"Ok folks, the missus has got dinner on the table and if I'm late Ill never hear the end of it. As a result if your still here in 30 seconds I'm afraid I may have to start caving some heads in!"

Easy E wrote:No, sub-machine guns give the impression that you are serious about enforcement. Perception is reality to voters.

You're a voter.

Is that true for you?

mattyrm wrote:

olympia wrote:The video is interesting. First lieutenant pike, the brave soul, pepper sprays the students, then the other police move in and cuff them and remove them. The police could have just skipped the pepper-spray. The kafka-esque part of this is that lying prone is considered "active resistance" according to the police "matrix of force" and thus justifies the application of pepper-spray. Surreal.

As I said, its a tough one for me. I dont generally support protester types, and if they full on refused to move despite being asked I can see why the rozzers would get annoyed. But at the same time, the pepper spray did just seem to be totally needless.

I think I would have handled it better. Surely an aggressive warning would have been enough? Something light hearted to break the ice, maybe like..

"Ok folks, the missus has got dinner on the table and if I'm late Ill never hear the end of it. As a result if your still here in 30 seconds I'm afraid I may have to start caving some heads in!"

And after 30 seconds, when they haven't moved and don't show signs of doing so, what do you do?

Skip the pepper spray and go right to the nightsticks? That would have looked even better on video.

Better to explain what the next step is (which it appears is what was done) and then carry it out vice empty threats or skipping steps.

mattyrm wrote:

olympia wrote:The video is interesting. First lieutenant pike, the brave soul, pepper sprays the students, then the other police move in and cuff them and remove them. The police could have just skipped the pepper-spray. The kafka-esque part of this is that lying prone is considered "active resistance" according to the police "matrix of force" and thus justifies the application of pepper-spray. Surreal.

As I said, its a tough one for me. I dont generally support protester types, and if they full on refused to move despite being asked I can see why the rozzers would get annoyed. But at the same time, the pepper spray did just seem to be totally needless.

I think I would have handled it better. Surely an aggressive warning would have been enough? Something light hearted to break the ice, maybe like..

"Ok folks, the missus has got dinner on the table and if I'm late Ill never hear the end of it. As a result if your still here in 30 seconds I'm afraid I may have to start caving some heads in!"

I can't hear the what he says, but it appeared that the intrepid lieutenant tried that more than once.

Mattyrm....is this you in the video?




resisting arrest n. the crime of using physical force (no matter how slight in the eyes of most law enforcement officers) to prevent arrest, handcuffing and/or taking the accused to jail. It is also called "resisting an officer" (but that can include interfering with a peace officer's attempt to keep the peace) and is sometimes referred to merely as "resisting."

Jihadin wrote:Mattyrm....is this you in the video?




resisting arrest n. the crime of using physical force (no matter how slight in the eyes of most law enforcement officers) to prevent arrest, handcuffing and/or taking the accused to jail. It is also called "resisting an officer" (but that can include interfering with a peace officer's attempt to keep the peace) and is sometimes referred to merely as "resisting."

Not me mate, Im light on my feet!

Regards the thread, I suppose pepper spray IS preferable to wading in with a truncheon..

funny they don't sound English...is that just my ears?

Why pepperspray or baton? How about you just arrest them?

Arresting requires some physical contact with the perp.

When that perp, either actively fights or passively refuses to be arrested (by linking arms with others, sitting, etc..) the arresting officer must use some level of force to coerce the person/people not willingly standinf up and holding out their hands for the cuffs.

At that point the officers must decide what level of force to use which will allow the arrest to be made without exposing the officer to undue risk and at the same time causing the least amount of harm to the perp being arrested.

How do YOU propose the officers do so?

CptJake wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There is also a discussion to be had around the use of pepper spray for physical coercion of non-violent, unmoving suspects.

Unmoving, but breaking the law. Pepper spray is very low on the escalation of force scale. What do you propose, should the police not do their jobs unless the perps are violent? If they should do their jobs, what tool do you want them to use that limits harm to the perp and does not expose the cop to undue risk?

Yes, that is what I would advocate.

The police should act with discretion and caution, responding to violence with appropriate measures. It isn't acceptable to gas people for sitting across a pavement.

In this case the best course of action would have been to wait for the protestors to get tired and go away of their own accord.

Indeed. Is the obstruction of a footpath worth pepper spraying people over? I don't really think so.

Kilkrazy wrote:

CptJake wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There is also a discussion to be had around the use of pepper spray for physical coercion of non-violent, unmoving suspects.

Unmoving, but breaking the law. Pepper spray is very low on the escalation of force scale. What do you propose, should the police not do their jobs unless the perps are violent? If they should do their jobs, what tool do you want them to use that limits harm to the perp and does not expose the cop to undue risk?

Yes, that is what I would advocate.

The police should act with discretion and caution, responding to violence with appropriate measures. It isn't acceptable to gas people for sitting across a pavement.

In this case the best course of action would have been to wait for the protestors to get tired and go away of their own accord.

Why have police if you are not going to have them enforce laws, if they can be defeated by just not actively commiting acts of violence? Sorry, that ends up not working well.

Remember, the cops HAD been patient and had asked nicely and had waited...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:Indeed. Is the obstruction of a footpath worth pepper spraying people over? I don't really think so.

Obviously the kids felt obstructing the police from performing their duties was worth getting sprayed over... Remember, it was not just a handful of kids blocking the walk way, it was a bunch more surrounding the cops in an attempt to prevent them from carrying out their jobs...

The police decision to gas the crowd was perverse. The protesters were hog-tied after being gassed same as if they had not been gassed. Indeed cuffing someone writhing in pain is more difficult to than cuffing someone who is just lying there. So the police "matrix of force" looked something like this:
Is someone breaking the law? Yes---> Ask them to stop. Did they refuse? Yes---> Gas them ---> arrest them. You can take the "gas them" action out and you end up with the same result, and that paunchy feth Pike would not be on desk duty eating taco bell getting further away from ever completing that police mini-marathon for charity.

I'll ask again, more plainly since you didn't catch the question the first time.

How do you propose the police should have arrested the bunch of folks with joined arms and refusing to move?

How do you physically unlink their arms and move their bodies as they resist without hurting them?

What would your method have been?

As one of the protesters put it:

Well we were protesting together and the riot cops came at us and we linked arms and sat down peacefully to protest their presence on our campus. And then at one point they were – we had encircled them and they were trying to leave and they were trying to clear a path. And so we sat down, linked arms and said that if they wanted to clear the path they would have to go through us. But we were on the ground, you know, heads down and all I could see was people telling me to cover my head, protect myself and put my head down. And the next thing I know we were pepper-sprayed

I've watched the video a few times and the answer to your question, cptjake, is obvious. They would have been arrested the same way with or without gassing. Even after being gassed by Lieutenant Pike many of the protesters are still linking arms. Look at the video, striker. So the gassing did not, in fact, cause some of the protesters to unlink their arms. I'm sure the 'matrix of force' dictates that after gassing you start clubbing them but thankfully brave Pike showed some discretion and choose just to unlink the protesters the old-fashioned way and arrest them.

And the next thing I know we were pepper-sprayed

Yes, out of the blue. With no warning or the students laughing in thier face and chanting. Maybe this protester is an idiot, or deaf. The shrill scream of "protect your eyes, cover your mouth" apparently went unnoticed. Or perhaps the commenting protester thought a girls gone wild money shot was about to occur for the Occupy UC Davis GGW video...

AustonT wrote:funny they don't sound English...is that just my ears?

Hah!

Have you spent much time with the Limeys?

The medic has a broad Geordie accent, he's an Englishman alright.

Having spent a couple of years in the US, I would say that on a first meeting with an American, 50% think i'm Irish, then it's either Australian or Scottish, but very very few say England. The broad accents we have really confuses our American cousins. Indeed, the first two years of my relationship with my missus (Californian) she was constantly asking me to repeat myself to the point that it genuinely became annoying. And her parents are still constantly going "excuse me!?" They say that I speak too fast and I never pronounce Ts. Like we say "Caroons" instead of Cartoons, and once a girl in a restaurant said to me "er... what is a pu-ate-a?" (Potatoe)

Depending on where you are from in England, your voice sounds very different, Geordies are some of the hardest to understand though, they sound like Scottish people with brain damage!

You can learn them easily though, and several times I have been "pinged" when ive been in the States. Once I was at the zoo in Santa Barbara and I was trying to get the parrot to swear at me. This lady tapped me on the shoulder and said to me "Excuse me, is that a North-East England accent?" and I said "Bang on! How did you know?" "my daughter married a chap from Darlington and he sounds identical to you"

olympia wrote:I've watched the video a few times and the answer to your question, cptjake, is obvious. They would have been arrested the same way with or without gassing. Even after being gassed by Lieutenant Pike many of the protesters are still linking arms. Look at the video, striker. So the gassing did not, in fact, cause some of the protesters to unlink their arms. I'm sure the 'matrix of force' dictates that after gassing you start clubbing them but thankfully brave Pike showed some discretion and choose just to unlink the protesters the old-fashioned way and arrest them.

I guess I have to disagree with you. Without the pepper spray I assume (based on the words of the protesters) that they would not have been as easy to peel apart and arrest. Without the temporary incapacitaion from the spray they would not have been as easy to handle, and that could very well have resulted in physical damage/harm to either the folks protesting or the cops, well beyond the extent of what harm the spray caused.

CptJake wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

CptJake wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:There is also a discussion to be had around the use of pepper spray for physical coercion of non-violent, unmoving suspects.

Unmoving, but breaking the law. Pepper spray is very low on the escalation of force scale. What do you propose, should the police not do their jobs unless the perps are violent? If they should do their jobs, what tool do you want them to use that limits harm to the perp and does not expose the cop to undue risk?

Yes, that is what I would advocate.

The police should act with discretion and caution, responding to violence with appropriate measures. It isn't acceptable to gas people for sitting across a pavement.

In this case the best course of action would have been to wait for the protestors to get tired and go away of their own accord.

Why have police if you are not going to have them enforce laws, if they can be defeated by just not actively commiting acts of violence? Sorry, that ends up not working well.

Remember, the cops HAD been patient and had asked nicely and had waited...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:Indeed. Is the obstruction of a footpath worth pepper spraying people over? I don't really think so.

Obviously the kids felt obstructing the police from performing their duties was worth getting sprayed over... Remember, it was not just a handful of kids blocking the walk way, it was a bunch more surrounding the cops in an attempt to prevent them from carrying out their jobs...

I think there are more worthwhile crimes for the police to investigate than sitting on the pavement when asked to move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJake wrote:

olympia wrote:I've watched the video a few times and the answer to your question, cptjake, is obvious. They would have been arrested the same way with or without gassing. Even after being gassed by Lieutenant Pike many of the protesters are still linking arms. Look at the video, striker. So the gassing did not, in fact, cause some of the protesters to unlink their arms. I'm sure the 'matrix of force' dictates that after gassing you start clubbing them but thankfully brave Pike showed some discretion and choose just to unlink the protesters the old-fashioned way and arrest them.

I guess I have to disagree with you. Without the pepper spray I assume (based on the words of the protesters) that they would not have been as easy to peel apart and arrest. Without the temporary incapacitaion from the spray they would not have been as easy to handle, and that could very well have resulted in physical damage/harm to either the folks protesting or the cops, well beyond the extent of what harm the spray caused.

You are starting from the idea that the demonstrators had to be moved.

If instead you decide to let them be, the whole situation would defuse itself.

The purpose of that kind of protest is to get itself violently opposed by the authorities.

Ahh, it's that droll to it that makes me think he was a Scot. I'm not afraid to admit I haven't spent much time around Brits at all, ran into more Aussies and Georgians than anything else non American in the box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did watch your intrepid RAF put a brand new C130 into the ground the hard way, and set it on fire by deploying flares just above the ground. Must have been a fantastic ride for the poor donkey-caves in side.

Did the pepper spray kill or permanently injure them?

No? You mean they are completely fine now?

Then what the feth is all of this fuss about...

Ah, I take it you'd be alright with the police bopping you (or, say, your mother) on the head for minor infractions? Like, you're walking home drunk, and they just smack you in the head with a baton?Or an open handed smack in the face. Teach you not to do it again, it would!