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I though he was fired for making the last eldar codex and the end times thing in WFB.

Makumba wrote:
I though he was fired for making the last eldar codex and the end times thing in WFB.

https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/phil-kelly/61/281/b51
Not according to Linked In.
Should have been... but no.

Was End Times even him?

Yeh, why is everyone acting as though jetbikes have ld5? They have a 27.8% chance of failing a ld test. Lets face it - most people in a tourney will probably be running 6 squads of 5 as mentioned above, so if you do get in range, and you do cause 2 casualties, and they do fail their ld check, and they do run off the board, a failed ld roll has caused 81pts of damage. Not exactly game changing.

Makumba wrote:
why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.

The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Makumba wrote:
why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.

The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.

But so far it has seemed pretty obvious to those that have followed this game for a while that while the name wasn't on each codex, the writers and their mannerisms were still the same.

I'm glad I sold my Orks. At least now, I have some money to save up until either all codex are overpower equally, or nerf equally.

And I still have a couple bikes to paint because I like that part of the hobby too lol.

The more I thought about this, the less OK I was with it. It might be fun to play against as a challenge, but it sets a poor precedent.

I was so unimpressed that I wrote an article about it for Talk wargaming.

You might call that a shameless plug but, let me assure you, I am plenty ashamed.

Hmmmmm has anyone considered a usage of a Harlequin/Dark Eldar fear-bomb list? Use some of the Harlequin tech with Shadowseers and Death Jesters in combination with DE Coven tech.

A death jester, if he can get a half-decent shot off, causes around one unsaved wound on average , forcing a LD 6 or 5 check depending on positioning of LD debuff tech. Veil of Tears is one of the best protections against any kind of really long range attack, and it's impossible for the bike unit to jump into range to reliably hit through Veil and jump out again without being in threat range of at least the DJ. And even if they are out of range of running them off the board the DJ can run them 3d6" towards a cc threat instead.

Veil of tears'd Beastmaster packs and Harlequin Solitaires hiding out of LOS and using the blitz move may be capable of catching the bike star.

And as for the StD spam, if we 're assuming they'll primarily be running WKs odds are it'll only be two, and at worst they'll be able to pop one of the dirt-cheap Starweavers a turn. Hardly devastating.


Heck, the Starweavers are almost capable of fighting pound for pound with those dang bikes as cost effective Shuriken cannon platforms. They bring 2 for 70 points as opposed to one for 27. And they're a vehicle with an invuln save so they almost average as more durable than the bikes to most kinds of incoming fire.

2 SC for 70 is less good than 2 SL for 54. :(

I think Fear Bomb only improves, however, with better scoring.

Has anyone considered that there is not any non-tailored solution at all? Quit posting list tailored "solutions".

It's a good unit, don't get me wrong, but if you take 810 points of ANY good unit, it is going to look broken. 810 points of Heldrake gets you 5 drakes...half your bikes are dead when 3 of them come onto the board (before leadership tests). 800ish points of Noise Marines gives you 5 blastmasters pumping 48" S8 AP3 blasts out of Rhinos...that's going to lead to some failed leadership tests, and you'll have to shoot at each unit for two different turns to kill it (if you have enough bikes left by then). Like I said, it's a really nice unit, but talking about how it looks at these high point levels seems a bit misleading. I'm sure there are other good units that aren't CSM (lol) that you could do the same with.

Martel732 wrote:
Has anyone considered that there is not any non-tailored solution at all? Quit posting list tailored "solutions".

Starting with tailored lists and then working backward toward TaC lists seems like a reasonable approach. I agree that simply posting a tailored list and then walking away without revising it in light of other potential opponents is largely a waste of time. Have to start somewhere, may as well start with Low Hanging Fruit.

WayneTheGame wrote:

lustigjh wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
If it's this bad, I'm just going to refuse to play against it and be no worse off. I might play a few less games but I might also convince a few people not to bring cheesy units.

But... I have a fluffy Saim-Hann Windrider army with every model converted to be unique, painted to a high standard and with a name and background for every model and unit in the army along with a novella detailing my army's history that I pass out to each opponent before a game.

Okay I really don't, but just a blanket "don't play against it" is going to screw over the fluff players too (although it is likely a fluff player won't suddenly have a ton of scatter lasers if they didn't already).

The point of a blanket "no thank you" is to give myself a chance to have fun. Fluffy or not, a JB list as bad as this seems is not going to be remotely fun.

I could make some fluffy unbound list which consists of an invisible Screamerstar, Belakor, and Heldrakes but I still wouldn't expect anyone to want to play against it.

Right, and I agree. My point was to basically illustrate how a lack of balance hurts the fluff player more because they're lumped into the WAAC category when the game is "supposed" to be about fluffy lists, but not all fluffy lists are created equal.

Ah, I misread your post. I undershtand now

sassmcsass wrote:
It's a good unit, don't get me wrong, but if you take 810 points of ANY good unit, it is going to look broken. 810 points of Heldrake gets you 5 drakes...half your bikes are dead when 3 of them come onto the board (before leadership tests). 800ish points of Noise Marines gives you 5 blastmasters pumping 48" S8 AP3 blasts out of Rhinos...that's going to lead to some failed leadership tests, and you'll have to shoot at each unit for two different turns to kill it (if you have enough bikes left by then). Like I said, it's a really nice unit, but talking about how it looks at these high point levels seems a bit misleading. I'm sure there are other good units that aren't CSM (lol) that you could do the same with.

Ok 135 pts. 20 st6 bs4 shots at 36" on 5 jsj platforms with a 12" move, eldar jetbike turbo boost, 4+ jink, 3+, t4, relentless, 5 wounds, OS and taken in a troops slot...

Yep still looks insanely broken.

The fact that you can take 6 units of 5 makes it worse.

It's a lot of instant death for those of us running armies where even the special characters have T3

It's hit me, and it's been in my face the whole time - what will be most effective against eldar jetbikes?

Earthshakers and wyverns.

Hello renegades!

Dual CAD

Arch demagogue with cov of tzeentch and mutant overlord (in plasma obliterator)
4 disciples

3 spawn x 4

10 mutants x 2

3 rapier laser destroyers x 3
Militia training

Plasma obliterator

Arch demagogue with melta bombs and cov of khorne (in mutant blob)
4 disciples

Enforcer with stims (or what ever its called - IA13 at home) (in mutant blob)

10 mutants

30 mutants

5 wyverns

5 wyverns

3 Earthshakers

Skyshield landing pad

1850pts

5 wyverns and earthshakers on skyshield for 4++. Rapiers for AT (plus earthshakers). 12 spawn will get shredded, as will the mutant blob, but at least it will keep fire off the artillery.
Eldar will completely outscore this list and still probably win but at least it'll give them a good try. Obliterator will go down to D quick though...

 pretre wrote:
2 SC for 70 is less good than 2 SL for 54. :(

I think Fear Bomb only improves, however, with better scoring.

True. I think the real strength of the Harly codex that people underestimate is the potential for MSU shenanigans. As nutty as these bike units are gonna be, a full 10 man squad unloading 40 shots is going to be beyond overkill if a Harlequin force splits into a 70pt Transport, a 95pt troupe and a 60pt jester. If the Shadowseers are correctly utilized to deny the priority targets, you can prevent each of those 270 point bike mini-stars from eliminating more than 100-ish points each. Keeping a serious threat like a Beaststar veiled can create a screen to allow you to feed just the least vital components of your army.

Deep striking in a WWP with Shadowseer with MoS and Archon with AoM then gives you one extra trump card to drop something big with a combination of psychic shrieks, laugh of sorrows or mirror of minds.

What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?

No matter which side you sit on; Sky is Falling or How Do We Counter... can we all agree that this looks utterly boring to play against?

Watching the socially awkward, silent, must win-all-games-no-matter-what dude at your local gaming centre pick through 160 dice is not how I like to spend my time...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?

Then the Mutants and Spawn in that list would charge them and mess them up? Either they get close enough to get charged by the blobs, or they shoot the blobs and get blown up by the artillery.

Not perfect, but actually works fairly well.

Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.

Martel732 wrote:
Has anyone considered that there is not any non-tailored solution at all? Quit posting list tailored "solutions".

The more dominant one list is, the more applicable tailored solutions become. If this list really does turn up as nutty as it looks like it's going to, then to win a tournament you gotta find something to beat it.

Kinda like how everyone plans for Sine Snakes and The Wonderful Thing About Tiggurs now. Your tailor is stronger than the power build as soon as the power build becomes the norm

Requizen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?

Then the Mutants and Spawn in that list would charge them and mess them up? Either they get close enough to get charged by the blobs, or they shoot the blobs and get blown up by the artillery.

Not perfect, but actually works fairly well.

You need LOS to charge don't you? Or has that changed? It is quite easy for the bikes to avoid that using the Landing pad and the vehicles themselves. Average of a 7" charge + needing LOS before the charge means that you may find it trickier than thought to actually get a charge on the bikes, as being close enough to charge may mean LOS is blocked by the Landing Pad.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?

Then the Mutants and Spawn in that list would charge them and mess them up? Either they get close enough to get charged by the blobs, or they shoot the blobs and get blown up by the artillery.

Not perfect, but actually works fairly well.

You need LOS to charge don't you? Or has that changed? It is quite easy for the bikes to avoid that using the Landing pad and the vehicles themselves. Average of a 7" charge + needing LOS before the charge means that you may find it trickier than thought to actually get a charge on the bikes, as being close enough to charge may mean LOS is blocked by the Landing Pad.

So yeah, in the situation where the R&H player left enough room on or around the Landing Pad for the Jetbikes to land in such a way that they were out of LoS of the blobs but also close enough to them that the blasts can't shoot them, and R&H also screwed over his own charge lanes enough by deploying like a lunatic, it's quite difficult to get a charge off.

Or, we can assume that playing against Eldar doesn't automatically turn every player into an idiot.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.

But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?

Requizen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
What's to stop the eldar player from just turboboosting to and sitting next to the Wyverns and earthshakers on the landing pad, thus resulting in him gaining a 4++ against the rest of your shooting and your artillery being unable to shoot at him as it would result in the blasts being over friendly models?

Then the Mutants and Spawn in that list would charge them and mess them up? Either they get close enough to get charged by the blobs, or they shoot the blobs and get blown up by the artillery.

Not perfect, but actually works fairly well.

You need LOS to charge don't you? Or has that changed? It is quite easy for the bikes to avoid that using the Landing pad and the vehicles themselves. Average of a 7" charge + needing LOS before the charge means that you may find it trickier than thought to actually get a charge on the bikes, as being close enough to charge may mean LOS is blocked by the Landing Pad.

So yeah, in the situation where the R&H player left enough room on or around the Landing Pad for the Jetbikes to land in such a way that they were out of LoS of the blobs but also close enough to them that the blasts can't shoot them, and R&H also screwed over his own charge lanes enough by deploying like a lunatic, it's quite difficult to get a charge off.

Or, we can assume that playing against Eldar doesn't automatically turn every player into an idiot.

^This. Also wyverns are quite small for vehicles and won't block LoS to a jetbike on a stand. Even IF for some reason you left enough space on the landing pad for a jetbike unit to land and you also didn't have anything with which to charge them with... the artillery can always fire at the other jetbike units. I'm curious as to whether you could fit 3 earthshakers and 5 wyverms on a landing pad. You definitely couldn't fit 3 earthshakers, 5 wyverns and 30 jetbikes on a pad.
The fact that I've had to resort to 10 wyverns and 3 earthshakers, a skyshield to protect them and a plasma obliterator to top it off, just to take out some troops units that come in cheaper than a 5 man tac squad in pod with plasma gun and combi-plasma, speaks volumes.

 Purifier wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.

But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?

I'm sorry but my Eldar are saim-hann devotees of Waacdrad, The Scatterer Of The Lasers. In my army fluff this last week the almighty Waacdrad commanded by Farseers to abandon their holy wave serpents for holy jetbikes.

If I can't outfit my army to fit my fluff then why don't you just outlaw fluffy armies altogether you narrative deforging monster?

Orock posted this yesterday and its all ready had 13, 562 views at time of writing. That really, to me, demonstrates not only how worried people are about this but also a shared sense of dread (or jubilation) that this has extreme potential to destroy the game as it is. To have thay many views in that time, people must have come on dakka intentionally to see and/or discuss this utterly game changing rule (and I mean that literally, not as an overused cliché). It has the potential to rock the foundations of the game if GW allow it to stand.
And as I've demonstrated - I'm willing to consider and discuss counters. But the sky is most certainly falling in without agreement on house rules. You don't have to be one or the other to see how dangerous this is for the game.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Orock posted this yesterday and its all ready had 13, 562 views at time of writing. That really, to me, demonstrates not only how worried people are about this but also a shared sense of dread (or jubilation) that this has extreme potential to destroy the game as it is. To have thay many views in that time, people must have come on dakka intentionally to see and/or discuss this utterly game changing rule (and I mean that literally, not as an overused cliché). It has the potential to rock the foundations of the game if GW allow it to stand.
And as I've demonstrated - I'm willing to consider and discuss counters. But the sky is most certainly falling in without agreement on house rules. You don't have to be one or the other to see how dangerous this is for the game.

Honestly I don't think it's the bikes themselves that are generating so much worry. It's the bikes going to an already powerful and fairly flexible codex. If these we're given to say DA... I don't think there would be as big of a panic (not so say no one would worry, but it wouldn't be as big of a deal).