160 Str 6 shots for 1080 points....

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**Requizen**

SilverDevilfish wrote:
Poly Ranger wrote:
Orock posted this yesterday and its all ready had 13, 562 views at time of writing. That really, to me, demonstrates not only how worried people are about this but also a shared sense of dread (or jubilation) that this has extreme potential to destroy the game as it is. To have thay many views in that time, people must have come on dakka intentionally to see and/or discuss this utterly game changing rule (and I mean that literally, not as an overused cliché). It has the potential to rock the foundations of the game if GW allow it to stand.
And as I've demonstrated - I'm willing to consider and discuss counters. But the sky is most certainly falling in without agreement on house rules. You don't have to be one or the other to see how dangerous this is for the game.

Honestly I don't think it's the bikes themselves that are generating so much worry. It's the bikes going to an already powerful and fairly flexible codex. If these we're given to say DA... I don't think there would be as big of a panic (not so say no one would worry, but it wouldn't be as big of a deal).

Correct. People have posted lots of things that can counteract or at least somewhat deal with the Bikes themselves. But then, the question becomes, what happens when you have those bikes alongside Dark Eldar, Harlequins, or simply things like Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, or Wraithknights? If the entire army was just the one-trick-pony of "cheap massed S6 shooting", then it would be simpler to deal with. As it stands, that's just one pillar of the codex.

**Poly Ranger**

The fact that they are troops and can come in units of 3-10 would make a worry of any codex got them.
If DA got them:

Interregator chaplain with bike

5 jetbikes with SL x 6

Sicaran with schism of mars, lascannons and ceremite

Sicaran

Sicaran

Javelin with typhoon ML, MM and 2 HK

Typhon seige tank

1850pts

They make even DA broken beyond repair. Yes I've taken the best of FW for everything else but even with access to those things DA were still considered the worst dex.
I agree though - it is worse on a dex that is already the strongest.

**krodarklorr**

Not gonna lie, it's refreshing (however scary) to talk all this stuff about Eldar. My Necrons are enjoying the lack of hate towards them. Mmmmm, calm. So nice.

**welshhoppo**

Purifier wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.

But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?

Shun the non believer, Shun!

For the cost of the upgrade, you'd have to be an idiot not too. Or intentionally weakening your list, which is no fun either. You shouldn't have to tailor your list to make it easier for your opponents, but that is an issue of balance.

It's an issue because normally if you go full fluff you overspecialise, so you can be easily countered. But going full fluff against that many jet bikes, I can't see a reasonable counter yet. Except another jet bike army and a first turn advantage.

**Captyn_Bob**

The bikes are the only thing confirmed.

There will be formation bonuses, there will be warlord traits, There will be two tables of psychic powers.

There may be other units which provide as other yet unknown benefits.

There is a lot to fear...

**Martel732**

Does there need to be anything else?

**greatbigtree**

[Just Trollin'...]

Blood Angels could totally wipe the floor with these guys. All they need to do is take Tactical Marines in Drop Pods. Hell-yeah!

[/Trollin']

**Martel732**

That's good for a laugh, for sure.

**Exergy**

DCannon4Life wrote:
Has the (relatively) low Leadership of the Eldar Jetbike been explored as a weakness? I've failed plenty of morale checks for my jetbikes, and when I do, they fall back a LONG way.

so the only counter we can really think of for CWE is DE allied with Harlequin Eldar with massive Ld negs and forced morale checks

If only bikes could be pinned.....

**Ashiraya**

Martel732 wrote:
That's good for a laugh, for sure.

I know right. You're supposed to take assault marines in the pods, not tactical marines!

**Agent_Tremolo**

wuestenfux wrote:
Makumba wrote:
why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.

The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.

I'd cut the studio some slack. This Eldar affair stinks of executive meddling.

Wraithknights, wraithguard and hemlocks are all new kits that for some reason failed to meet GW's sales expectations. Hence the D.

Jetbikes are a related but different issue: Every Eldar player probably has a dozen or more jetbikes in his/her collection now. The only way to make the new kits work was to radically alter their wargear options so as to make the old models less appealing.

In the meantime, Aspects still languish with their old finecasted 2nd edition models. With no stocks to clear, they will surely be ignored by this codex as they were by the previous one.

**Requizen**

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Makumba wrote:
why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.

The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.

I'd cut the studio some slack. This Eldar affair stinks of executive meddling.

Wraithknights, wraithguard and hemlocks are all new kits that for some reason failed to meet GW's sales expectations. Hence the D.

Jetbikes are a related but different issue: Every Eldar player probably has a dozen or more jetbikes in his/her collection now. The only way to make the new kits work was to radically alter their wargear options so as to make the old models less appealing.

In the meantime, Aspects still languish with their old finecasted 2nd edition models. With no stocks to clear, they will surely be ignored by this codex as they were by the previous one.

I don't know a single Eldar player who doesn't have at least 1-2 Wraightknights. Maybe Wraithguard or the Flyers I could understand, though.

**Orock**

Purifier wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.

But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?

Nope. See you cant trust people to not run broken things when they are available. Thats why space marine grav bikers havent won eveyr tournament since their inception. 2 max per squad, and possibly a combi. And the only option to get more per squad is captain or librarian for command squad. But thats more expensive. IF you could give every member of a squad a special weapon, it would be broken as all hell, which is why you cannot...until now.

**Kanluwen**

Agent_Tremolo wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Makumba wrote:
why do people blame Phil Kelly for this codex, wasn't he fired from the designed studio.

The codices are now considered as a joint work of the development team.
In this way, nobody can be blamed individually.
It can only be a collective failure.

I'd cut the studio some slack. This Eldar affair stinks of executive meddling.

Wraithknights, wraithguard and hemlocks are all new kits that for some reason failed to meet GW's sales expectations. Hence the D.

Jetbikes are a related but different issue: Every Eldar player probably has a dozen or more jetbikes in his/her collection now. The only way to make the new kits work was to radically alter their wargear options so as to make the old models less appealing.

In the meantime, Aspects still languish with their old finecasted 2nd edition models. With no stocks to clear, they will surely be ignored by this codex as they were by the previous one.

Sorry, WHAT?

Wraithknights were a huge seller for GW.
Hemlocks sold well to boot, they just never really got played as Hemlocks and were instead built as the Crimson Hunter.
Wraithguard also sold fairly well by all accounts.

**Nevelon**

Don’t forget the mandatory viper tax in all of the base formations. I could see it for the bike one, but the two ground based ones? That’s just them pushing kits.

**Poly Ranger**

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The bikes are the only thing confirmed.

There will be formation bonuses, there will be warlord traits, There will be two tables of psychic powers.

There may be other units which provide as other yet unknown benefits.

There is a lot to fear...

Imagine if these bikes got access to formation bonuses such as universal bladestorm (or even old school bladestorm), or fnp, extra bs/tl, increaded cover saves etc.
Even bonuses which aren't as bad as the above would just be crazy.

**DCannon4Life**

I've got an internet dollar bet on the 'Saim Hann' style formation getting...Skilled Rider.

**Orock**

DCannon4Life wrote:
I've got an internet dollar bet on the 'Saim Hann' style formation getting...Skilled Rider.

Hit and run.

**Accolade**

the_scotsman wrote:
Purifier wrote:
welshhoppo wrote:
Except a full jet bike army isn't WAAC behaviour. It is a totally acceptable and fluffy way to play a Saim-Hann army too.

But maybe a person going in with that mindset doesn't have to put scatter lasers on everything?

I'm sorry but my Eldar are saim-hann devotees of Waacdrad, The Scatterer Of The Lasers. In my army fluff this last week the almighty Waacdrad commanded by Farseers to abandon their holy wave serpents for holy jetbikes.

If I can't outfit my army to fit my fluff then why don't you just outlaw fluffy armies altogether you narrative deforging monster?

This post made my day, thank you

**Nevelon**

Orock wrote:
DCannon4Life wrote:
I've got an internet dollar bet on the 'Saim Hann' style formation getting...Skilled Rider.

Hit and run.

Why can’t it be both?

/ducks and runs

**DCannon4Life**

Nevelon wrote:
Orock wrote:
DCannon4Life wrote:
I've got an internet dollar bet on the 'Saim Hann' style formation getting...Skilled Rider.

Hit and run.

Why can’t it be both?

/ducks and runs

Bwah! Yep, that's what it will be; Skilled Rider and Hit & Run. Brutal.

**greatbigtree**

They truly will be White Scars on 'roids.

**TheCustomLime**

I have an idea. Let's all use the Eldar codex! Guard can use Jetbikes as counts as rough riders! Baneblades standing in for Wraithknigts!

**Mumblez**

TheCustomLime wrote:
I have an idea. Let's all use the Eldar codex! Guard can use Jetbikes as counts as rough riders! Baneblades standing in for Wraithknigts!

I now want to see a baneblade chassis on wraithknight legs with a giant sword arm coming out of one of the side sponsons and a scattershield from the other. Baneknight.

**TheCustomLime**

It'd be as sensible as GW rules writing these days.

Srsly, though, I'm done with mainline 40k. This, along with the Necron codex, has sapped all of my interest from the game. I might still play a pick up game or two but that's it. Time to head off to the promised lands of the Horus Heresy.

**Kaeldran**

Nevelon wrote:
Orock wrote:
DCannon4Life wrote:
I've got an internet dollar bet on the 'Saim Hann' style formation getting...Skilled Rider.

Hit and run.

Why can’t it be both?

/ducks and runs

Actually, there are two possible sources, the windrider host formation and the formation o formations (the decurion equivalent).
I bet for hit & run and fearless for the decurion equivalent, and skilled rider and stealth for the windrider formation.

No tarpitting, no morale problems, cero problems with terrain, S2++ jink...

So they only need a new psychic power to make their weapons rending and twin linked, for killing easily the S2+ and heavy vehicles with mass fire, to be a complete unit...

**bobthebretonnian**

I have to agree that facing a potential 160 shots is scary. Thank heavens i dont play 40k much. Bring back 2nd edition at least nothing as dumb as what i am hearing on this forumn concerns my future in 40k been doing this game for 20 years. Glad i got into ancients bit more balanced

**bibotot**

I think it's 1 Scatter Laser per 3 models instead of per model. Just like the Shuriken Cannon right now.

**Poly Ranger**

I've put this in the proposed rules thread on bolter changes as tongue in cheek but imagine if tac marines got the option for the entire squad to upgrade to SL for 10pts each. Imagine the uproar. Imagine if tac squads could upgrade to 1 SL for every 2 marines, still imagine the uproar.

**Martel732**

bobthebretonnian wrote:
I have to agree that facing a potential 160 shots is scary. Thank heavens i dont play 40k much. Bring back 2nd edition at least nothing as dumb as what i am hearing on this forumn concerns my future in 40k been doing this game for 20 years. Glad i got into ancients bit more balanced

2nd edition had things this dumb. You probably just never saw them. Pulsa Rokkit spam. Eldar web spinners. Sonic blasters. Hormagaunts.