Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-fbi-20151204-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=649324

So the weapons were apparently purchased from Texas based online discount gun retailers

Are online or over the phone retailers subject to the same requirements as an in-store purchase?

Online sales are subject to transfer to a local FFL in the state the purchaser resides in, when they receive it they notify the purchaser, then the purchaser must go to the FFL and do the paperwork. Assuming the NICS comes back with a "clear to proceed", the purchaser can then take possession of the firearm.

The only legal way for a firearm to be sold across state lines is FFL to FFL transfer.

A lot of the "regulate online sales" BS you hear from anti-gun people are actually addressing ads on Craigslist, which is no different to the newspaper gun ads that have been running in newspaper classifieds for decades and is almost always a private sale between individuals. These are subject to all state and federal regulations pertaining to private sales, and if an FFL is involved, paperwork needs to be done as normal.

If the link you gave is correct, the sale was illegal, because at least 2 of the weapons used are illegal in CA.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:


People no matter what. If they want a weapon they will get a weapon. Pipe dream there. Repeal the 2nd and round up all the weapons eh. Gee I sold all mine for fifty dollars at a gun show. Like my flower bed there do ya. Nope not a rifle capsule in there but feel free to check it you want with a search warrant

show me the receipt and the paperwork on the guy you sold it to. oh you don't have it, you must have illegally sold your gun, so come with us.

@Grey Templar
start with a media campaign instead of this is your brains on drugs, this is your brains after being shot message. all gun packaging would be required to have pictures of people murdered in mass shootings, and a nice smear campaign against armor piercing ammo. deer don't wear armor, but cops do. public opinion can and always does shift.

it's not an impossible task, close down all gun manufacturers, the NRA, and take all their assets, close down all places that sell guns & ammo and take all their assets.

surely all the law abiding citizens would follow the new law and hand over their guns, otherwise they'd show themselves for the criminals they are and would be locked up.

the 2nd has been abused far to long, say no to guns.

trump is all about taking away freedom of religion from one religion, if he gets his way removing it from the others would be a easy thing.

you could probably have a substantial shift in opionion and a much lower mass shooting rate. a president could have this done in his first term.

Confirmed, you have zero clue about guns and what they actually do or the absurdness of your idea. And really smear Armor Piercing Ammo? Pure idiocy.

Armor-piercing ammo, as defined by the BATFe, is already illegal (save for ultra-rare "grandfathered" possession).

Again, anti-gunners believe any ammo that can penetrate level 3a body armor is "armor-piercing". That body armor is only rated effective up to .44 special/magnum. Any rifle ammunition, and some handgun ammunition, will still rip through it, even though it may not be defined as armor-piercing by the BATFe.

sirlynchmob wrote:
trump is all about taking away freedom of religion from one religion, if he gets his way removing it from the others would be a easy thing.

Trump also says that building a border wall is a viable option, and that he's a great buisnessman. I don't think he's a good example.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
trump is all about taking away freedom of religion from one religion, if he gets his way removing it from the others would be a easy thing.

Trump also says that building a border wall is a viable option, and that he's a great buisnessman. I don't think he's a good example.

As the republican front runner and potential next president, he's a fair game for examples. Because that nut job could actually be the next POTUS.

He's not going to get nominated, and he certainly wouldn't get elected. Very piss poor example.

 Grey Templar wrote:
He's not going to get nominated, and he certainly wouldn't get elected.

Let's hope not.

And I'm not trying to play Mod, but Presedential nominations are even more off topic than the Second Amendment stuff, we should probably avoid it.

sirlynchmob wrote:
repeal the 2nd amendment and round up all the guns from anyone who is not in the states nation guard, the military, or some sort of police roll.

No


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-fbi-20151204-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=649324

So the weapons were apparently purchased from Texas based online discount gun retailers

Are online or over the phone retailers subject to the same requirements as an in-store purchase?

Yes, a background check must take place as the firearm must go to an FFL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:
show me the receipt and the paperwork on the guy you sold it to. oh you don't have it, you must have illegally sold your gun, so come with us.

Evidence?

sirlynchmob wrote:
start with a media campaign instead of this is your brains on drugs, this is your brains after being shot message. all gun packaging would be required to have pictures of people murdered in mass shootings, and a nice smear campaign against armor piercing ammo. deer don't wear armor, but cops do. public opinion can and always does shift.

So your argument is an appeal to emotion?

sirlynchmob wrote:
it's not an impossible task, close down all gun manufacturers, the NRA, and take all their assets, close down all places that sell guns & ammo and take all their assets.

So we close down business engaged in lawful practice, and an advocacy group which has broken no laws? You don't think that is unreasonable?

sirlynchmob wrote:
surely all the law abiding citizens would follow the new law and hand over their guns, otherwise they'd show themselves for the criminals they are and would be locked up.

You don't see why millions of law abiding people would take exception to having their rights trampled over and their property seized?

sirlynchmob wrote:
the 2nd has been abused far to long

By whom?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvUiHmazZKY

I agree with these thoughts.

I agree as well.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-fbi-20151204-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=649324

So the weapons were apparently purchased from Texas based online discount gun retailers

Are online or over the phone retailers subject to the same requirements as an in-store purchase?

the online is a misnomer. they still go through the same background checkbwhen you pick up the firearm.

 The Airman wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvUiHmazZKY

I agree with these thoughts.

Truth told.

 Frazzled wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-fbi-20151204-story.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=649324

So the weapons were apparently purchased from Texas based online discount gun retailers

Are online or over the phone retailers subject to the same requirements as an in-store purchase?

the online is a misnomer. they still go through the same background checkbwhen you pick up the firearm.

Weapons bought "online" have to be shipped to a FFL and not the buyer directly. You then go to the FFL to pick up you weapon, pay any taxes due, and (get ready for it) fill out your paperwork and undergo a background check. I know because this was the process I went through when I bought my pistol.

Stick to the topic. No more 2nd amendment discussions that flower out like they have been. Next one gets the thread locked and you won't be discussing this as it develops here. If you want to discuss the political implications of a terrorist attack on the 2nd amendment being repealed or not, that's for a different thread. So keep it there.

 The Airman wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvUiHmazZKY

I agree with these thoughts.

That sounds like internet aristocrat.

 Crablezworth wrote:

That sounds like internet aristocrat.

It does. Man, I missed that guy.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Because he's using it as an excuse for more gun control and immediately jumped on it (despite California having some of the toughest laws in the US and all the ones he blabbers about).

I'm still waiting to hear one recommendation that would have prevented this attack;
- perpetrators were not on a No Fly List
- perpetrators were not known to FBI
- ban on "assault weapons" in CA
- magazines limited to 10 rounds in CA
- no open carry in CA
- background checks for public and private transactions in CA
- mandatory 10 day waiting period in CA

repeal the 2nd amendment and round up all the guns from anyone who is not in the states nation guard, the military, or some sort of police roll.

I replied before I saw the warning.

Sorry.

Hearing & seeing the reports of all the stockpiling of both weapons/ammo and explosives this pair had, I think we should be thankful that they were badly inept terrorists...
12 pipe bombs with even semi-intelligent placement around a large public building would have been catastrophic.

While it's still hugely tragic as it is for those who's lives have been shattered, it could have been a helluva lot worse.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Hearing & seeing the reports of all the stockpiling of both weapons/ammo and explosives this pair had, I think we should be thankful that they were badly inept terrorists...
12 pipe bombs with even semi-intelligent placement around a large public building would have been catastrophic.

While it's still hugely tragic as it is for those who's lives have been shattered, it could have been a helluva lot worse.

Agreed. I'm glad the attackers were stopped. It seems clear (leaving the scene, recording video, etc.) that this was not intended as a suicide mission

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Hearing & seeing the reports of all the stockpiling of both weapons/ammo and explosives this pair had, I think we should be thankful that they were badly inept terrorists...
12 pipe bombs with even semi-intelligent placement around a large public building would have been catastrophic.

While it's still hugely tragic as it is for those who's lives have been shattered, it could have been a helluva lot worse.

Agreed. I'm glad the attackers were stopped. It seems clear (leaving the scene, recording video, etc.) that this was not intended as a suicide mission

So far it's also being suggested based on their little stockpile that this wasn't the "real" attack they were preparing for but became the target based on the husband's rage. I wonder if that will be shown to actually be the case.

Edit: And this post is the one that hit the magic 10,000 mark. Yay, me!

Question about those illegal guns were they bought that way or were they converted? i suppose that some guns are more easily converted to full auto then others, or are there converting kits available?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Question about those illegal guns were they bought that way or were they converted? i suppose that some guns are more easily converted to full auto then others, or are there converting kits available?

This is where the media reports are somewhat misleading. It was reported that all guns were purchased legally, and that two of the firearms were bought in California and two in Texas. Transporting firearms across State lines is typically illegal, and not registering them in California is also illegal. It is thought that the rifles were bought by a friend of the couple for the express purpose of giving to them. This is called a straw purchase and is a felony on a national level, on a State level California also requires a background check for all private sales/transfers and this clearly was not performed. The firearms in question were believed to have been compliant with California law when initially purchased, but were subsequently modified to be illegal under State law. There are also reports that an attempt was made to convert one of the rifles to fully automatic from semi automatic, which is a felony.

Fully auto firearms or conversion kits are very expensive as for a regular citizen they must submit a form (signed by the local chief of police) with the ATF, pay the tax stamp, and then find the firearm/fire control group that was manufactured before the 1986 Assault Weapons Ban. Given the scarcity of these items they are often very expensive.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
There are also reports that an attempt was made to convert one of the rifles from fully automatic to semi automatic, which is a felony.

I think mean convert from Semi TO Full.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

Fully auto firearms or conversion kits are very expensive as for a regular citizen they must submit a form (signed by the local chief of police) with the ATF, pay the tax stamp, and then find the firearm/fire control group that was manufactured before the 1986 Assault Weapons Ban. Given the scarcity of these items they are often very expensive.

To add to that, some uninformed people see "AR-15 full-auto bolt carrier groups" for sale and think that's some sort of conversion kit to make an AR full-auto. To clarify, this is false. It is simply the design of bolt carrier group that is used in full-auto guns, it in no way makes an AR full-auto. My own semi-auto rifle has these parts.

 CptJake wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
There are also reports that an attempt was made to convert one of the rifles from fully automatic to semi automatic, which is a felony.

I think mean convert from Semi TO Full.

You are correct. This is why I drink coffee in the morning

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Question about those illegal guns were they bought that way or were they converted? i suppose that some guns are more easily converted to full auto then others, or are there converting kits available?

To expand a little on what Dreadclaw said, if they were either AR15s or AK47s, under California law they have to have a device called a "bullet button" which means you cannot remove the magazine without use of a tool to press a recessed button. You can use the point of a bullet, hence the name. Additionally, there are restrictions in that state on magazine size; a 30 round magazine must be modified - pinned - to accept no more than 10 rounds. Removing the bullet button and the pinning mechanism both result in a firearm unlawful in California.

To answer your last question, Dreadclaw mentioned the full auto conversion kits. They do exist, for an AR-15, the kit in question is called a drop-in auto sear.



That piece must be installed in the gun. As he said, that piece alone is considered by the ATF to be a machine gun; and is heavily restricted. They are both rare and expensive (right now about $9,000 USD) and require the regulations already outlined. However, it's not impossible to manufacture one (which is of course illegal), you can find plans online for the specs to machine and install one. Note that a lawful AR-15 lower doesn't physically have space for that part so you also have to remove some material from your AR15 lower to accommodate it. There was a case a few years ago where the ATF declared a big batch of Airsoft BB guns to be "machine guns" and seized them, much to the laughter of the internet. However when you dig into the case, it turned out that the Airsoft guns were really, really faithful replicas, and included the empty space for which an auto-sear could fit, and so were (as the law is written) "readily convertible" and so it wasn't ridiculous at all, but that's way too complicated of a story to report on the news. Sorry, I digress.

Converting an AK is actually a bit easier; you just need a few parts from a kit (which are actually legal to own - some lawful AK's will already have one of them, which is fine), and then cut a slot and drill a hole (which is not legal, it's considered manufacturing a machine gun unless you have the appropriate tax stamp).

That's really all it takes? That looks like something I could manufacture in with the stuff in my basement.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's really all it takes? That looks like something I could manufacture in with the stuff in my basement.

As well as milling out part of the lower receiver, as Ouze mentioned.

 Alex C wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's really all it takes? That looks like something I could manufacture in with the stuff in my basement.

As well as milling out part of the lower receiver, as Ouze mentioned.

Still something I could do in my garage (although I probably have more power tools than the average person).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's really all it takes? That looks like something I could manufacture in with the stuff in my basement.

As well as milling out part of the lower receiver, as Ouze mentioned.

Still something I could do in my garage (although I probably have more power tools than the average person).

Absolutely. You'd then be illegally manufacturing a machine gun, though if you're a suicidal terrorist I guess you wouldn't care.

You also most likely have enough items around the house to manufacture explosives and chemical weapons, should you choose to do so. They require even less effort.