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Karol wrote:
Man, I wish I could play them with the old rules. If I got a 5th ed codex, would I be able to play them in this edition.

In general no. However, if you and your opponent agree, you can do anything you want.

You'd probably have to plan it with them before hand, and probably work with them on a conversion to 8th you both agreed seemed fun. Could be a fun thing to do, but you're not likely to find a bunch of people that would want to play that way, especially without prior conversations.

If you and a friend wanted to, though, there isn't anything stopping you.

 SHUPPET wrote:
you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.

We used to have:
Nemesis force staff: 2++ in CC
Swords gave +1 invul in CC, halberd were +2 initiative, hammers standard but everything was a force weapon.
Purifiers had 2 attacks
Purifiers had cleansing flame as a stock power, aka a nova that did 2D6 auto hits (S5 AP- I think) to every unit within 9”
Inquisitors were HQ choices, we had henchmen as troops and elites
We had a flamer template version of Jaws of the World Wolf
We were essentially the only army that could deepstrike everything on turn 1
Dreadknights had shunt
Psybolt ammo was an upgrade for all units: +1 S to bolters and bolter types. Psycannons were S7 AP4 heavy 4/assault 2

Going back further:
You could only shoot GK if you made it through The Shrouding: 3D6x3= your range
Everyone had +1 attack thanks to True Grit
Warp Quake was a basic power for all GK troops: if you deepstuck within 9” (maybe 12”) you automatically mishapped
We had a special character with regenerating ghost bodyguards (RIP Mordrak)
Vortex of Doom was a blast template that insta-killed anything it touched
Codex Daemonhunters has options for daemonhosts (you couldn’t take GK if you had any). They were decent.
We had assasins in our codex...death cult and the big 4.
Psybolt ammo and psycannons ignored invul saves.

Thank you for at least admitting what a lot of people (including FLG) won’t: that longtime GK players know their army. It’s been highly frustrating to go from a fluffy, fleshed out Codex Daemonhunters in 4th (we had a section of “why X army would fight Daemonhunters”) to a GK-only codex with barely any on the elitism or style that got us into the army in 8th.

Dreadknights had shunt

What the hell, why did they took that away? Does anyone have a link to an article or knows the WD in which the GW design team explains why they gave GK units the rules they have in 8th ed?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
No, 5th edition has a very different rules set to 8th. You are only supposed to use the Codex that belongs to that specific rules set.

I would not be that hard to port their old codex just drop their int stat give them six inch movement and then turn AP4 into -1 AP3 into -2 ect.

Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.

I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.

Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again

 greyknight12 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.

Thank you for at least admitting what a lot of people (including FLG) won’t: that longtime GK players know their army. It’s been highly frustrating to go from a fluffy, fleshed out Codex Daemonhunters in 4th (we had a section of “why X army would fight Daemonhunters”) to a GK-only codex with barely any on the elitism or style that got us into the army in 8th.

Oh, I have no doubt GK players know their army. But someone that knows the most doesn't always mean they will give the fairest opinions on it. That being said, I can easily imagine how frustrating it is. I'd be really annoyed if I mained the army, especially at a time when the game is more fun than ever. Got my fingers crossed for you guys getting some good improvements somewhere down the line, even if GW only gives you some bandaid fixes to some units so that you guys can at least play 8th until they give you a new book.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Oh, I have no doubt GK players know their army. But someone that knows the most doesn't always mean they will give the fairest opinions on it. That being said, I can easily imagine how frustrating it is. I'd be really annoyed if I mained the army, especially at a time when the game is more fun than ever. Got my fingers crossed for you guys getting some good improvements somewhere down the line, even if GW only gives you some bandaid fixes to some units so that you guys can at least play 8th until they give you a new book.

I hate to sound negative, but it probably won't happen. The codex is already released and at this point they are only going to adjust points. GK are well and truly fethed until 9th, which won't come out until 2020 at the earliest. Honestly I feel sorry for GK players, as a guard player who had to deal with 6th and 7th editions where we were utter garbage I know how they feel.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.

I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.

Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again

GK Interceptors currently do work like they did in 7th, only with a better Shunt. NDKs need their Personal Teleportor to work the same way Interceptors do.

SJ

 Marmatag wrote:

(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.

(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.

(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.

You had some good ideas but I’ll pick these out as very much over the top. Frightfully so in a couple of cases.

The Nemesis Force Sword is fine as is, and reasonably balanced against the current Halberd. The Halberd might be slightly better in the same way that a Power Axe is slightly better than a Power Sword, and the Axe is slightly more expensive, so making the Halberd slightly more expensive than the Sword would balance those two weapons against each other. Those two weapons currently do exactly what they should - solid Marine Melee weapons with a higher damage due to their Force nature. Their combat power relative to other Marines is exactly where it should be; if there’s still a problem, then it’s a structural problem to do with Marines, not GK. The solution to that is not to make GK into Custodes, which is what your Halberd profile is doing.

The biggest problem those two weapons have is the existence of Falchions, which are just way too good since they represent either a 100% or 50% increase in output for 1 and 2 Attack models. I’d say the solution is either to up the Falchions’ point cost relative to the other two, or to reduce it to AP-1. This would make the three basic Nemesis weapons at least in the same ballpark balance-wise even if they’re not perfect.

What I’ve done there is actually nerf two of the three weapons (+ 1-2 points on the Halberd, dropped 1 AP on the Falchions). That might seem like I’m heading in the wrong direction, but what it actually does is just even the keel of the three weapons relative to one another. If they’re all roughly equal, it gives you the leeway to buff the army in other ways. It means you can give GK something like a power to add 2” to their charges without making it busted on Falchions but useless on Swords. Right the ship before giving it more cannons or some of them will shoot into the water while others fire into the air.

Your Hammer profile is the one I’m going to call out as frightfully over the top. You should know that it is. It’s the sort of weapon I used to make up when I was a ten year old: all of the most powerful stats with no drawbacks. That one’s a complete go-back-to-the-drawing-board.

There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.

Incinerators are perfectly fine relative to other flamer weapons. Extending their range to 12” subverts the whole flamer mechanic that stops you Deep Striking and using them and allows units to charge from outside their range. If a core mechanic of the game doesn’t work, the solution is not to just keep making things sidestep the mechanic. It’s the sign of a bad rule if everything requires an exception or subversion gimmick.

Lastly, that Stratagem is just petty. It was a bad idea to give it to Daemons, lorewise it makes zero sense for GK to get it, and it just comes across as ‘they got something that hurts me so I should get the same thing to hurt them’.

Other than that I’m broadly onboard with the rest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Danarc wrote:

Anyway about psychic power we should have access to Librarium and have a second expanded santa list, taken from old 5 ed. powers like:
1) MIGHT OF TITAN (cast on 6+, a GK unit within 12" can reroll 1s to wound in CQC)

2) WARP QUAKE (cast on 8+, D3 mortals to enemies arriving from Tac Reserves within 18")

3) HOLOCAUST (cast on 8+, roll for each model in the closest unit within 12" and deal 1 mortal for every 6+, rerolling misses if the casting result was 12+)

4) QUICKSILVER (cast on 5+, a GK unit within 12" always strikes first in CQC for the remainder of the round)

5) THE SHROUDING (cast on 6+, -1 to hit each GK unit within 6")

6) DARK EXCOMMUNICATION (cast on 6+, a DAEMON unit within 12" must reroll successful saves)
(all these are ideas from a friend of mine)

Moreover GK should have ORDO MALLEUS keyword. This would be great. And fluffy

All of this is really good. It’s not crazy OP, and it fills some gaps that GK struggle with like screening against Deep Strike and rerolling wounds. Great job.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.

I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.

Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again

GK Interceptors currently do work like they did in 7th, only with a better Shunt. NDKs need their Personal Teleportor to work the same way Interceptors do.

SJ

Only they are way worse then they were in 7th. They take powers from other guys if they do cast them, they lost a ton of their power in CC from losing the extra attack on the charge and prefered enemy deamons is only good in the fight phase now, ect, ect.

 mew28 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.

I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.

Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again

GK Interceptors currently do work like they did in 7th, only with a better Shunt. NDKs need their Personal Teleportor to work the same way Interceptors do.

SJ

Only they are way worse then they were in 7th. They take powers from other guys if they do cast them, they lost a ton of their power in CC from losing the extra attack on the charge and prefered enemy deamons is only good in the fight phase now, ect, ect.

What are you talking about? Purifiers lost their 2nd attack, Interceptors always had 1 attack base. And Shunt is currently a once per game Gate that isn’t a Gate or a power, which is better than the 30” Shunt they use to have. Sure, the Psychic Phase in 8th sucks, but that’s an issue with the game not the unit.

SJ

Interceptors are a wash, their shunt is now outside flamer range. HOWEVER they can charge after their shunt which is really nice.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Spoiler:

 mew28 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Personal teleporters need to work the way they did back in 7th. Basically a jump pack without making the unit jump infantry, while also having that super Shunt move. It would make Dreadknights great again.

I think the average GK Strike Squad member need veteran stats.

Do that, fix some of our psychic problems, and lower points on most troops by 2 and we are in the ballpark again

GK Interceptors currently do work like they did in 7th, only with a better Shunt. NDKs need their Personal Teleportor to work the same way Interceptors do.

SJ

Only they are way worse then they were in 7th. They take powers from other guys if they do cast them, they lost a ton of their power in CC from losing the extra attack on the charge and prefered enemy deamons is only good in the fight phase now, ect, ect.

What are you talking about? Purifiers lost their 2nd attack, Interceptors always had 1 attack base. And Shunt is currently a once per game Gate that isn’t a Gate or a power, which is better than the 30” Shunt they use to have. Sure, the Psychic Phase in 8th sucks, but that’s an issue with the game not the unit.

SJ

kombatwombat wrote:

You had some good ideas but I’ll pick these out as very much over the top. Frightfully so in a couple of cases.

The Nemesis Force Sword is fine as is, and reasonably balanced against the current Halberd. The Halberd might be slightly better in the same way that a Power Axe is slightly better than a Power Sword, and the Axe is slightly more expensive, so making the Halberd slightly more expensive than the Sword would balance those two weapons against each other. Those two weapons currently do exactly what they should - solid Marine Melee weapons with a higher damage due to their Force nature. Their combat power relative to other Marines is exactly where it should be; if there’s still a problem, then it’s a structural problem to do with Marines, not GK. The solution to that is not to make GK into Custodes, which is what your Halberd profile is doing.

The biggest problem those two weapons have is the existence of Falchions, which are just way too good since they represent either a 100% or 50% increase in output for 1 and 2 Attack models. I’d say the solution is either to up the Falchions’ point cost relative to the other two, or to reduce it to AP-1. This would make the three basic Nemesis weapons at least in the same ballpark balance-wise even if they’re not perfect.

What I’ve done there is actually nerf two of the three weapons (+ 1-2 points on the Halberd, dropped 1 AP on the Falchions). That might seem like I’m heading in the wrong direction, but what it actually does is just even the keel of the three weapons relative to one another. If they’re all roughly equal, it gives you the leeway to buff the army in other ways. It means you can give GK something like a power to add 2” to their charges without making it busted on Falchions but useless on Swords. Right the ship before giving it more cannons or some of them will shoot into the water while others fire into the air.

Your Hammer profile is the one I’m going to call out as frightfully over the top. You should know that it is. It’s the sort of weapon I used to make up when I was a ten year old: all of the most powerful stats with no drawbacks. That one’s a complete go-back-to-the-drawing-board.

There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.

Incinerators are perfectly fine relative to other flamer weapons. Extending their range to 12” subverts the whole flamer mechanic that stops you Deep Striking and using them and allows units to charge from outside their range. If a core mechanic of the game doesn’t work, the solution is not to just keep making things sidestep the mechanic. It’s the sign of a bad rule if everything requires an exception or subversion gimmick.


Other than that I’m broadly onboard with the rest.




All of this is really good. It’s not crazy OP, and it fills some gaps that GK struggle with like screening against Deep Strike and rerolling wounds. Great job.

I dont know dude, you say a str 5 stormbolters is a too OP basic weapon. My opponents basic weapons on troops are all str 5-8 shot once or twice, and suffer no negative bonuses for moving . The heavy weapons GK have don't seem to worth taking. A 12" incinerator could at least be used with deep strike, the way he costs now and with the range he has no one will ever take them.

I also don't understand the weapon nerf you propose. First GK seem to be a realy bad army, nerfing the few ok things in it won't help them at all., and second the GK problem is not falchions being too Good, they could give 6 attack each, and not much would change, because GK just melt before they actually get to reach melee.

And finaly on good stuff being gimmiks, well as it so happens in the few good armies I played, all the good stuff was gimmiks. Being able to shot twice per turn or in my own turn. Ton of psychic powers and re-rollable +3 saves on primarchs. Now am not saying GK couldn't be an army that is good, but without gimmiks. But the only way I can think that could work, is RAW stats. +2" to movment, base t5-6 and 3 wounds stock, but that would just turn GK in to foot custodes.

It’s obvious how GW will fix GK: by selling you new models and a new book.

GK Codex 2: Primaris Boogaloo. Models with good rules that you don’t yet own, a la Deathwatch.

cuda1179 wrote: It would make Dreadknights great again.

LOVE YOU

w1zard wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Oh, I have no doubt GK players know their army. But someone that knows the most doesn't always mean they will give the fairest opinions on it. That being said, I can easily imagine how frustrating it is. I'd be really annoyed if I mained the army, especially at a time when the game is more fun than ever. Got my fingers crossed for you guys getting some good improvements somewhere down the line, even if GW only gives you some bandaid fixes to some units so that you guys can at least play 8th until they give you a new book.

I hate to sound negative, but it probably won't happen. The codex is already released and at this point they are only going to adjust points. GK are well and truly fethed until 9th, which won't come out until 2020 at the earliest. Honestly I feel sorry for GK players, as a guard player who had to deal with 6th and 7th editions where we were utter garbage I know how they feel.

I think that we'll have more that one codex for some armies during 8th edition.


Anyway, the solution can't be nerfing GK weapons.

Karol wrote:

I dont know dude, you say a str 5 stormbolters is a too OP basic weapon. My opponents basic weapons on troops are all str 5-8 shot once or twice, and suffer no negative bonuses for moving . The heavy weapons GK have don't seem to worth taking. A 12" incinerator could at least be used with deep strike, the way he costs now and with the range he has no one will ever take them.

I also don't understand the weapon nerf you propose. First GK seem to be a realy bad army, nerfing the few ok things in it won't help them at all., and second the GK problem is not falchions being too Good, they could give 6 attack each, and not much would change, because GK just melt before they actually get to reach melee.

And finaly on good stuff being gimmiks, well as it so happens in the few good armies I played, all the good stuff was gimmiks. Being able to shot twice per turn or in my own turn. Ton of psychic powers and re-rollable +3 saves on primarchs. Now am not saying GK couldn't be an army that is good, but without gimmiks. But the only way I can think that could work, is RAW stats. +2" to movment, base t5-6 and 3 wounds stock, but that would just turn GK in to foot custodes.

I’m interested to know what armies you’re facing that have Str 5-8 basic troop weapons? Tau certainly do, but that’s Tau’s thing - they’re the most specialised shooting army, they don’t participate in the Psychic or Assault Phases, so they have to have by far and away the best guns. A Str 5 Stormbolter fires 4 Str 5 shots hitting on 3s at 12”. A Tau Pulse Rifle fires 2 Str 5 shots hitting on 4s at 15”. If your sidearm is better than Tau’s rifles, you’ve gone very wrong. Indeed, a normal Stormbolter is already better than a Tau Pulse Rifle, it certainly doesn’t need to be any better. The problem is not their basic guns.

Is the problem their heavier guns? Not likely, considering GK are a medium-to-short range shooting and melee army, but let’s look at it anyway. I haven’t disagreed with your changes to the Psycannon or Psilencer. The only disagreement I had was with upping the range on the Incinerator. The Incinerator is currently doing exactly what it says on the tin: a Heavy Flamer with +1 Str due to its psychic fire. It should probably hurt Daemons more, but that ties into my suggestion about their ignoring Daemons’ Invulnerable Saves. So long as it’s approriately costed relative to the Heavy Flamer, the Incinerator is where it should be. If it isn’t an effective weapon, the problem is not the Incinerator, but the Flamer rules. I definitely agree the flamer rules are undercooked, but the solution is not to fix this one particular flamer that has no reason to be different, but rather to fix the core flamer rules. If flamer weapons became 2D3 shots + D3 for every 5 models or something, the Incincerator would be dragged up with it.

The weapon nerf I propose is to fix the internal balance within the Codex, not the external balance between GK and other Codexes. A mate who hates doing mathhammer asked me the other day what weapons he should put on his GK. I looked into it and my answer was basically ‘Falchions. Maybe some Halberds or Hammers on Paladins.’ That’s not right. Every weapon should be a viable option. So I suggested a small nerf to two weapons to make the three closer to one another. If you don’t do this before trying to adjust external balance, you’ll either:

- power up GK until Falchions are good, Halberds are bad and Swords are terrible
- power up GK until Falchions are overpowered, Halberds are good and Swords are bad
- power up GK until Falchions are insane, Halberds are overpowered and Swords are good

See the problem? You need to fix the foundation first. Now, you could go the other way by buffing Halberds a little bit and Swords a lot so they’re both as good as Halberds, but then you just end up in a ridiculous arms race. That very arms race is why Power Armour is now laughable - since everything kept getting powered up, a T4 3+ 1-Wound model just can’t cut it anymore. This is not the direction to go. More to the point, Nemesis Power Swords already outpunch everybody who isn’t a Custode, which is as it should be. The problem is not the strength of their melee weapons.

Yes GK just melt, and you’ve hit the nail on the head with your last line: the only way to fix them is raw stats. If you power them up to Custodes level you have to cost them like Custodes. Then you haven’t fixed them, you’ve just moved the target and offended the lore to do it. Thing is, GK’s fragility and low number of attacks problem isn’t unique to GK - it’s a structural issue common to all Marines. As I said above, their resilience just won’t cut it nowadays, and they are stuck with a profile that was designed around their getting +1 Attack when charging.

My solution for this whole edition has been to fix the Marine profile by removing the ‘Primaris/miniMarine’ distinction entirely. Give every single Marine non-Primaris Infantry model the +1 Wound and Attack Primaris have, and get rid of Primaris’ baffling transport restrictions. Then give them a very small points increase, maybe larger for already powerful units like Berserkers. In one fell swoop you’d just about fix Power and Terminator Armoured Marines of every kind, including GK. From there it’s just smaller tweaks like helping GK out with their psychic powers.

Oh and apologies for coming on strong about your proposed Hammer profile. I thought I was replying to someone else, who should definitely know better. If you’re new you get a pass for making something too strong, but that profile definitely needed a rethink from the ground up.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.

(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.

(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.

You had some good ideas but I’ll pick these out as very much over the top. Frightfully so in a couple of cases.

The Nemesis Force Sword is fine as is, and reasonably balanced against the current Halberd. The Halberd might be slightly better in the same way that a Power Axe is slightly better than a Power Sword, and the Axe is slightly more expensive, so making the Halberd slightly more expensive than the Sword would balance those two weapons against each other. Those two weapons currently do exactly what they should - solid Marine Melee weapons with a higher damage due to their Force nature. Their combat power relative to other Marines is exactly where it should be; if there’s still a problem, then it’s a structural problem to do with Marines, not GK. The solution to that is not to make GK into Custodes, which is what your Halberd profile is doing.

The biggest problem those two weapons have is the existence of Falchions, which are just way too good since they represent either a 100% or 50% increase in output for 1 and 2 Attack models. I’d say the solution is either to up the Falchions’ point cost relative to the other two, or to reduce it to AP-1. This would make the three basic Nemesis weapons at least in the same ballpark balance-wise even if they’re not perfect.

What I’ve done there is actually nerf two of the three weapons (+ 1-2 points on the Halberd, dropped 1 AP on the Falchions). That might seem like I’m heading in the wrong direction, but what it actually does is just even the keel of the three weapons relative to one another. If they’re all roughly equal, it gives you the leeway to buff the army in other ways. It means you can give GK something like a power to add 2” to their charges without making it busted on Falchions but useless on Swords. Right the ship before giving it more cannons or some of them will shoot into the water while others fire into the air.

Your Hammer profile is the one I’m going to call out as frightfully over the top. You should know that it is. It’s the sort of weapon I used to make up when I was a ten year old: all of the most powerful stats with no drawbacks. That one’s a complete go-back-to-the-drawing-board.

There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.

Incinerators are perfectly fine relative to other flamer weapons. Extending their range to 12” subverts the whole flamer mechanic that stops you Deep Striking and using them and allows units to charge from outside their range. If a core mechanic of the game doesn’t work, the solution is not to just keep making things sidestep the mechanic. It’s the sign of a bad rule if everything requires an exception or subversion gimmick.

Lastly, that Stratagem is just petty. It was a bad idea to give it to Daemons, lorewise it makes zero sense for GK to get it, and it just comes across as ‘they got something that hurts me so I should get the same thing to hurt them’.

Other than that I’m broadly onboard with the rest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Danarc wrote:

Anyway about psychic power we should have access to Librarium and have a second expanded santa list, taken from old 5 ed. powers like:
1) MIGHT OF TITAN (cast on 6+, a GK unit within 12" can reroll 1s to wound in CQC)

2) WARP QUAKE (cast on 8+, D3 mortals to enemies arriving from Tac Reserves within 18")

3) HOLOCAUST (cast on 8+, roll for each model in the closest unit within 12" and deal 1 mortal for every 6+, rerolling misses if the casting result was 12+)

4) QUICKSILVER (cast on 5+, a GK unit within 12" always strikes first in CQC for the remainder of the round)

5) THE SHROUDING (cast on 6+, -1 to hit each GK unit within 6")

6) DARK EXCOMMUNICATION (cast on 6+, a DAEMON unit within 12" must reroll successful saves)
(all these are ideas from a friend of mine)

Moreover GK should have ORDO MALLEUS keyword. This would be great. And fluffy

All of this is really good. It’s not crazy OP, and it fills some gaps that GK struggle with like screening against Deep Strike and rerolling wounds. Great job.

Nearly all of my suggestions were things that GK had at one point in time. By the time i got to command abilities i was just having fun. Obviously reviving GK units when slain by a daemon is ridiculous, and i put that in there because Daemons got it, and that is just beyond dumb.

If anything, that strategy should be just the opposite. You can revive a unit unless it was destroyed by a GK model. At least that would be fluffy in that the GK would presumably "seal" the daemon.

 Quickjager wrote:
They did Slayer, are you seriously telling ME, THIS GUY, I don't remember my codex right.

And it was what they essentially had last edition because the powers were relatively easy to get off it had like something of a 60% chance to get both off. Also they could have 3 attacks last edition so you can argue they were even BETTER.

Also if you read Marmatags suggestions he was suggesting off a earlier post that they get the S5 based off a pre-game stratagem where if they pay a CP cost all eligible weapons would get psybolts.

If you dig further into the post you can see he is just joking about or parodying half the rules. Like the if Grey Knights keyword is slain by Daemons it may return at no cost.

I meant to say the Index. I KNOW Purifiers had two attacks. That was one of my primary complaints with the codex being released: they didn't fix that. You'll have seen that plastered in the Grey Knights Tactica thread, as I'm sure you've frequented there as much as I have.

Also you're not special. I've got an old Metal force still locked in a storage unit in Vermont of about 2000 points for the time (4th edition). I know the army as well, and I don't care if you're trying to defend the poster as "partly joking". It wasn't a good joke and an even worse suggestion.


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 SHUPPET wrote:
you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.

I've used the army. Most of the suggestions here are terrible trust me.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
If anything, that strategy should be just the opposite. You can revive a unit unless it was destroyed by a GK model. At least that would be fluffy in that the GK would presumably "seal" the daemon.

This right here, especially with the big nasties GUO, daemon princes etc.

kombatwombat wrote:


There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.

Grey Knight Storm Bolters should absolutely be better than similar Imperial guns, and the reason for that is psybolt ammo. Grey Knights have had access to psybolt ammo for a long time, and it did exactly what you would expect. Provide Bolters and Heavy Bolters with a strength boost. Thats how it worked at least since 5th edition if you bought the upgrade. Changing Psybolt Ammo to a strategem was a huge punch in the face for Grey Knights. GK already have trouble generating Command Points, so every use is important, and its a 2 CP ability which is expensive to use! For how many points GKs are are paying per model its perfectly reasonable for psybolt ammo to be removed from the strategem list- and baked into the storm bolters and heavy bolters themselves.

Let me put what you said another way;
"There is no need to make Sternguard Bolters 30 inch range and Ap-2. They're an effective weapon as is. There's no reason for them to be better than all similar imperial guns just because."
It sounds absolutely rediculous when applied to another unit- and you can't say, "but, but, but special issue ammo!" without admitting full stop that psybolt ammo is a very good reason to give GK's +1 strength to their bolter weapons.

 akaean wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:


There’s no need to make Storm Bolters Str 5. They’re an effective weapon as is. There’s no reason for them to be better than all other similar Imperial guns just because. Your ignoring Invul saves on Daemons has some merit as the weapon is AP-, but I’d actually make that a faction rule rather than a weapon rule and have it affect all Bolt weapons, Psilencers, Psycannons and Incincerators. As far as I’m aware most Daemons have an armour save so while your heavier weapons might completely ignore their saves, for most weapons it’ll just reduce their save by a point or two.

Grey Knight Storm Bolters should absolutely be better than similar Imperial guns, and the reason for that is psybolt ammo. Grey Knights have had access to psybolt ammo for a long time, and it did exactly what you would expect. Provide Bolters and Heavy Bolters with a strength boost. Thats how it worked at least since 5th edition if you bought the upgrade. Changing Psybolt Ammo to a strategem was a huge punch in the face for Grey Knights. GK already have trouble generating Command Points, so every use is important, and its a 2 CP ability which is expensive to use! For how many points GKs are are paying per model its perfectly reasonable for psybolt ammo to be removed from the strategem list- and baked into the storm bolters and heavy bolters themselves.

Let me put what you said another way;
"There is no need to make Sternguard Bolters 30 inch range and Ap-2. They're an effective weapon as is. There's no reason for them to be better than all similar imperial guns just because."
It sounds absolutely rediculous when applied to another unit- and you can't say, "but, but, but special issue ammo!" without admitting full stop that psybolt ammo is a very good reason to give GK's +1 strength to their bolter weapons.

OR, and hear me out on this...
You just make the Strategem 1 CP to use...


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Also nobody ever defended the Bolter as is so using the Sternguard comparison is frankly silly.

It's useless anyway. sternguard veterans have their ammo, DW too. Why we can't?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
They did Slayer, are you seriously telling ME, THIS GUY, I don't remember my codex right.

And it was what they essentially had last edition because the powers were relatively easy to get off it had like something of a 60% chance to get both off. Also they could have 3 attacks last edition so you can argue they were even BETTER.

Also if you read Marmatags suggestions he was suggesting off a earlier post that they get the S5 based off a pre-game stratagem where if they pay a CP cost all eligible weapons would get psybolts.

If you dig further into the post you can see he is just joking about or parodying half the rules. Like the if Grey Knights keyword is slain by Daemons it may return at no cost.

I meant to say the Index. I KNOW Purifiers had two attacks. That was one of my primary complaints with the codex being released: they didn't fix that. You'll have seen that plastered in the Grey Knights Tactica thread, as I'm sure you've frequented there as much as I have.

Also you're not special. I've got an old Metal force still locked in a storage unit in Vermont of about 2000 points for the time (4th edition). I know the army as well, and I don't care if you're trying to defend the poster as "partly joking". It wasn't a good joke and an even worse suggestion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.

I've used the army. Most of the suggestions here are terrible trust me.

No gak I'm not special, but guess what I'm dealing with? And you didn't catch the jokes? No problem, I suppose it does take some levity to actually see one. At least I know you are taking this seriously lol.

But at this point I'm looking at stupid gak like kombatwombat's suggestions and I don't see you saying that isn't dumb either.

 Quickjager wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
They did Slayer, are you seriously telling ME, THIS GUY, I don't remember my codex right.

And it was what they essentially had last edition because the powers were relatively easy to get off it had like something of a 60% chance to get both off. Also they could have 3 attacks last edition so you can argue they were even BETTER.

Also if you read Marmatags suggestions he was suggesting off a earlier post that they get the S5 based off a pre-game stratagem where if they pay a CP cost all eligible weapons would get psybolts.

If you dig further into the post you can see he is just joking about or parodying half the rules. Like the if Grey Knights keyword is slain by Daemons it may return at no cost.

I meant to say the Index. I KNOW Purifiers had two attacks. That was one of my primary complaints with the codex being released: they didn't fix that. You'll have seen that plastered in the Grey Knights Tactica thread, as I'm sure you've frequented there as much as I have.

Also you're not special. I've got an old Metal force still locked in a storage unit in Vermont of about 2000 points for the time (4th edition). I know the army as well, and I don't care if you're trying to defend the poster as "partly joking". It wasn't a good joke and an even worse suggestion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.

I've used the army. Most of the suggestions here are terrible trust me.

No gak I'm not special, but guess what I'm dealing with? And you didn't catch the jokes? No problem, I suppose it does take some levity to actually see one. At least I know you are taking this seriously lol.

But at this point I'm looking at stupid gak like kombatwombat's suggestions and I don't see you saying that isn't dumb either.

I didn't read his proposed fixes, so I can't comment on them. If you'll quote them I will say why they're bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll also plan a thread for the Proposed Rules subforum. I like a few of the suggestions here (there was a Psyker table that really caught my eye here).

I mean who in the world would agree that Grey Knights need a internal balancing to remove the one thing that you can objectively look at and say, "Hey that is pretty good".

I get he is saying that alongside the primaris fix, but that kind of fix is not going to happen. GW will never in this edition or next edition, retroactively apply a stat upgrade to old models.

Especially an upgrade that is the key selling point of the new model line they are trying to push.

 Quickjager wrote:
I mean who in the world would agree that Grey Knights need a internal balancing to remove the one thing that you can objectively look at and say, "Hey that is pretty good".

I get he is saying that alongside the primaris fix, but that kind of fix is not going to happen. GW will never in this edition or next edition, retroactively apply a stat upgrade to old models.

Especially an upgrade that is the key selling point of the new model line they are trying to push.

Oh, I agree just giving the Primaris statline is stupid. If I had seen that, I'd have said something. I can only quote so many people on this phone though before I forget stuff and go back to napping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Danarc wrote:
It's useless anyway. sternguard veterans have their ammo, DW too. Why we can't?

That's the primary gimmick and feature of the army, whereas this isn't a main focus for Grey Knights.

Slayer, post your ITC profile. I'd like to see the pedigree of the man who has designated himself gatekeeper for all GK proposed changes.

 Danarc wrote:
It's useless anyway. sternguard veterans have their ammo, DW too. Why we can't?

I agree, no reason the Emperor's Gift can't have access to better ammo.