Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.

That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.

The sergeant is the only one (and doesn't have the BS2+) is the point. If you look at it over time, it's 5/6 attacks landing with two dudes instead of 4, and then eventually with four dudes outside the Sergeant that's 10/12 instead of 8. That actually adds up instead of being a non-factor and doesn't make them attack more than a Custodes for whatever reason. It also makes them better with their range weapons, seeing as their saturation doesn't gain a lot of benefit.

The core problems with paladins are much greater than just "hitting on 3s."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also I just want to add your majority of fixes show you don't have much of a grasp for game balance.

Is this how you talk to people in a casual conversation? Or are you just That Guy behind the anonymity wall?

It's actually a majority of the core problem (negative modifiers and over reliance on rerolls), the other problem being that their table is overall blech and that they also lack access to the basic Astartes table (along with the rest of the codex having that same exact issue). They're already more durable than most Terminators and eat twice as many D2 weapons, which is why they're actually at the height of mediocrity when it comes to Terminators rather than the F- you gave (AKA a lower score than the regular ones, which for the price makes literal no sense). SO, if your complaint is they're dying to Lascannons as well, forgive me when I say I couldn't care less and that's the job of a Lascannon. Youre not scaling.

And yes I do because I'm being direct. Your majority of fixes are bad. I'm sorry but someone had to be honest with you. You basically want to give the basic troopers the Custodes Halberd. That's beyond ridiculous, along with the Storm Bolter you came up with.

Durability isn't the problem, it's usefulness and utility. Paladins struggle to make it to combat in the first place. They have to eat sustained fire before they can get there. Deep striking them with the new ruleset is rather challenging, considering their high cost means there needs to be a solid table presence to offset their cost when determining if you have deployed legally, or not.

So essentially raising their BS and WS doesn't change much, considering they don't make it into combat with their desired targets. You have exactly 4 options with Paladins to get them into combat:

Option 1: Deep strike them. This doesn't work super well, considering people have learned to effectively screen, and most lists will deny you a decent chance to land within range of screens thanks to scout moving or scout deploying units. This is also a turn 2 play if you have the beta rules, meaning that you need to kill screens turn 1, and cleave a wide path so these folks can land within 9" of anything worth charging. This is easier said than done.

Option 2: Start them on the table, and Gate of Infinity. This has more problems than the turn 2 deep strike, because of the nature of how this game is played and the 9" area denial that is very easy to accomplish. Also, if your unit of Paladins is large enough, they make for a juicy target considering their very high point cost. While they have 3 wounds, there is numerous artillery in the game that has D3 damage. Although personally I would allow Paladins to deep strike, and only shoot them if they manage to become a potential threat. You could foot slog them, but i'm not covering that here as it's a bad idea with a 5" move.

Option 3: Start them in a Land Raider. The minimum investment here is 3 Paladins and the cost of the land raider itself. This makes for a juicy target, and you're already committing at least 25% of your list to these 4 models. People don't play land raiders for a reason, so unless you're prepared to argue that land raiders are viable and useful, this isn't a good strategy. Land raiders are easily surrounded, and doing so before they pop means you lose the entire squad you paid an arm and a leg for.

Option 4: Star them in a storm raven. Again will end up costing a pretty penny. Should the storm raven manage to live past turn 1, it will certainly die on turn 2. These are must-kill vehicles, which will require your paladins disembark on turn 2. You find yourself in a similar scenario here. Your best hope is that you go first, the raven lives through turn 1 shooting of your opponent, and the paladins disembark and charge. Is this really all that likely? No.

The logistical challenges of paladins extend well beyond the very minor buff you're suggesting, which would give them a basic improvement in combat efficiency without giving them an improvement in how they actually make it to combat. Compare the effectiveness of Paladins with Sanguinary Guard. People aren't falling over themselves to bring Sanguinary Guard, who have a higher damage potential and can also deep-strike and charge on 3D6 inches with Fly. Even with bridging the gap in regards to deployment logistics you still run into the problem of being elite infantry in a game where a mediocre invulnerable save and low toughness relative to point results in being punished.

Finally, despite all of this, you actually have to define what their desired target is on the table, and then argue that how a change from 3+ to 2+ would alter the game to make these guys go from being an F grade - which they absolutely are - to at least a C, which is average.

This is why I proposed a few things that help Paladins specifically.

Access to more psychic disciplines would allow Grey Knights to be effective in the Psychic phase. They solve a lot of the logistical problems in regards to movement and also allow for tactical flexibility beyond that. Further, the ability to increase charge distance, and reduce damage, would help these guys find their way into combat. Finally, once getting there, updating their weapons would mean they can actually hold their own.

As it stands right now, Paladins are flatly inferior to Thunderwolf Cavalry, Custodes, and other elite choppy fellows.

So i guess i'll just put this back on you:

What is your envisioned role for paladins in the context of grey knights & 40k, and how do you feel they should be designed to realize that use case?

Thanks.

tneva82 wrote:

 Danarc wrote:
GW is releasing new edition of AoS and moreover there are several armies that don't have a codex yet. In addition Sisters of battle will be released (probably) on January. According to this this year we will not see second edition of already released codex.
Despite this I believe that in 8th edition GW will release more than one codex for some or every armies, with the release of new models. But not tis year.

Anyway, GK will be "fixed", according to Cruddace sentence, on CA. This confirms that it is very unlikely to see new codex within this year, and if they will not release a new GK codex probably they will not release any second edition codex.

AOS has btw already had multiple versions of their versions of codex so...

Sisters coming even in december 2019 wouldn't affect new editions. There's no law requiring GW to do full set of codexes before redoing AND INDEED THEY HAVE HISTORY OF REVERSE! It's super hyper mega rare for GW to actually release complete set of codexes before mark 2 comes. Like maybe once in the history of GW? Maybe 2. No more than that. And that is becoming more and more unlikely with new factions...

Yes, but GW never released before all codex in a single edition, and never released index for example. You can't count on what GW did before 8th edition.
I still confirm my idea. No second edition codex will be released until all codex will be out. I explained well the reasons before.

Marmatag wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.

I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.

Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!

Custodes have way better stratagems, and no one runs paladins with daemon hammers. You put one on the sergeant since he's 2+ but the rest you want Halberds or Falchions. Most people modeled with Falchions because it's the best in take-all-comers scenario.

Let's also remember that a squad of custodes will have at least 1, or 2, storm shields, which means they've got a 3++. Paladins having a 5+ invulnerable save, versus the Custodes 3+ invulnerable save, is really what makes the battle skew ugly in Custodes favor.

And to point out:

These are just my grades. They are not formal assignments of any kind and i'm sure many people would disagree, but if so we could have a debate because i feel pretty knowledgeable about this codex.

My personal opinion of GK, and how to fix them, would be as follows:

1. Give them access to all the Astartes psychic disciplines (space wolves, blood angels, adeptus astartes, dark angels) as well as Inquisition discipline. Suddenly they have some really good powers. Specifically what is in the Sanguinary discipline would really help out. 10 Terminators with wings of Sanguinius? Actually not half bad.

2. Expand their force org to include Inquisition. Currently inquisition is an absolute joke of an army, and the current soup rules make them just plain putrid.

3. Expand their force org to include assassins.

4. Redefine the melee weapons as follows:

(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.
(e) Nemesis Force Stave: +1 to deny the witch attempts

5. Redefine the ranged weapons as follows:

(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(b) Psycannon: Increase range to 36", increase damage to D3, and AP-2.
(c) Psilencer: Change to assault. Can target psykers & daemons regardless of character targeting rules.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.

6. Update rites of banishment. Remove the "Grey Knights never suffer a penalty to cast smite," let them suffer a penalty, but also give them d3 smite. Their smite can never deal D6, but it should deal D3. Additionally, drop the 3" d6 smite. Replace with cleansing flame, which hits all enemy units within 6" with 2d6 strength 6 ap-1 auto-hits.

7. Give them the following stratagems (I am not naming them, i'll just describe).

(a) 1CP. Used when a unit of paladins or terminators is the target of a ranged or melee attack. For the remainder of this phase, reduce the damage of attacks targeting this unit by 1 to a minimum of 1.

(b) 1CP. Improve the range of the next psychic power you cast by 6"

(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.

(d) 2CP. Add 2" to the next charge you make.

(e) 1CP. Used when a unit is targeted in the shooting phase. Reduce hit rolls against this unit by -1.

(f) 2CP. Use at the end of your opponent's psychic phase. You may cast one power.

Essentially with these changes we could probably leave the points alone for the most part and the army would be functional.

There are some good points, and something that I can't agree (in particular the access to all SM chapters psychic power). But as you told these are opinions.
The problem is that even these modifications will not change some issues, like DK.
We really need a new codex (with points drop).

Anyway about psychic power we should have access to Librarium and have a second expanded santa list, taken from old 5 ed. powers like:
1) MIGHT OF TITAN (cast on 6+, a GK unit within 12" can reroll 1s to wound in CQC)

2) WARP QUAKE (cast on 8+, D3 mortals to enemies arriving from Tac Reserves within 18")

3) HOLOCAUST (cast on 8+, roll for each model in the closest unit within 12" and deal 1 mortal for every 6+, rerolling misses if the casting result was 12+)

4) QUICKSILVER (cast on 5+, a GK unit within 12" always strikes first in CQC for the remainder of the round)

5) THE SHROUDING (cast on 6+, -1 to hit each GK unit within 6")

6) DARK EXCOMMUNICATION (cast on 6+, a DAEMON unit within 12" must reroll successful saves)
(all these are ideas from a friend of mine)

Moreover GK should have ORDO MALLEUS keyword. This would be great. And fluffy

IIRC chaos got 2 codices in 3rd edition and there were still some armies without a codex from 2nd edition out yet (Sisters at the least).

See that's the thing, if Grey knights get a bonus to their casting then all 6 of their powers should be like vortex. Like gate of infinity is what WC 6? How about if you get a 9+ then a second unit within X inches is also affected.

Granted it would a little swing at time but I think all their powers should have a little boost if you roll high enough

 Marmatag wrote:
Durability isn't the problem, it's usefulness and utility. Paladins struggle to make it to combat in the first place. They have to eat sustained fire before they can get there. Deep striking them with the new ruleset is rather challenging, considering their high cost means there needs to be a solid table presence to offset their cost when determining if you have deployed legally, or not.

So essentially raising their BS and WS doesn't change much, considering they don't make it into combat with their desired targets. You have exactly 4 options with Paladins to get them into combat:

Option 1: Deep strike them. This doesn't work super well, considering people have learned to effectively screen, and most lists will deny you a decent chance to land within range of screens thanks to scout moving or scout deploying units. This is also a turn 2 play if you have the beta rules, meaning that you need to kill screens turn 1, and cleave a wide path so these folks can land within 9" of anything worth charging. This is easier said than done.

Option 2: Start them on the table, and Gate of Infinity. This has more problems than the turn 2 deep strike, because of the nature of how this game is played and the 9" area denial that is very easy to accomplish. Also, if your unit of Paladins is large enough, they make for a juicy target considering their very high point cost. While they have 3 wounds, there is numerous artillery in the game that has D3 damage. Although personally I would allow Paladins to deep strike, and only shoot them if they manage to become a potential threat. You could foot slog them, but i'm not covering that here as it's a bad idea with a 5" move.

Option 3: Start them in a Land Raider. The minimum investment here is 3 Paladins and the cost of the land raider itself. This makes for a juicy target, and you're already committing at least 25% of your list to these 4 models. People don't play land raiders for a reason, so unless you're prepared to argue that land raiders are viable and useful, this isn't a good strategy. Land raiders are easily surrounded, and doing so before they pop means you lose the entire squad you paid an arm and a leg for.

Option 4: Star them in a storm raven. Again will end up costing a pretty penny. Should the storm raven manage to live past turn 1, it will certainly die on turn 2. These are must-kill vehicles, which will require your paladins disembark on turn 2. You find yourself in a similar scenario here. Your best hope is that you go first, the raven lives through turn 1 shooting of your opponent, and the paladins disembark and charge. Is this really all that likely? No.

The logistical challenges of paladins extend well beyond the very minor buff you're suggesting, which would give them a basic improvement in combat efficiency without giving them an improvement in how they actually make it to combat. Compare the effectiveness of Paladins with Sanguinary Guard. People aren't falling over themselves to bring Sanguinary Guard, who have a higher damage potential and can also deep-strike and charge on 3D6 inches with Fly. Even with bridging the gap in regards to deployment logistics you still run into the problem of being elite infantry in a game where a mediocre invulnerable save and low toughness relative to point results in being punished.

Finally, despite all of this, you actually have to define what their desired target is on the table, and then argue that how a change from 3+ to 2+ would alter the game to make these guys go from being an F grade - which they absolutely are - to at least a C, which is average.

This is why I proposed a few things that help Paladins specifically.

Access to more psychic disciplines would allow Grey Knights to be effective in the Psychic phase. They solve a lot of the logistical problems in regards to movement and also allow for tactical flexibility beyond that. Further, the ability to increase charge distance, and reduce damage, would help these guys find their way into combat. Finally, once getting there, updating their weapons would mean they can actually hold their own.

As it stands right now, Paladins are flatly inferior to Thunderwolf Cavalry, Custodes, and other elite choppy fellows.

So i guess i'll just put this back on you:

What is your envisioned role for paladins in the context of grey knights & 40k, and how do you feel they should be designed to realize that use case?

Thanks.

Anything without 10"+ mobility has that issue. That's nothing new to Terminators. Ever. It's also not a new issue to Berserker Marines. Luckily with the only Warlord trait you're taking they're okayish on chance to make the charge from Deep Strike. The issues you listed with Land Raiders and Storm Ravens are also nothing new and have to do with the price of those units. If you made Paladins the greatest Terminator ever it wouldn't fix the issues that Land Raiders and Storm Ravens have as delivery platforms.

Also Sanguine Guard only charge that 3D6 from a Stratagem. Which is once per turn. That's something Death Company or Slamguinus get as well, which would be better targets.
Also their target is going to depend on what weapons you give them, obviously. I'd give you three guesses as to what Falcion Paladins and LC Terminators should be going after, but you should really only need two.

My vision is the same for them as any other Terminator that's failing and seeing what the others that aren't crap are doing right. Those ones near that edge are the ones with the best damage potential. So basically an elite Shock Trooper.

The issue here is your fixes ignore other fixes that need to happen in the first place (you can't critique Paladins because of the issues Land Raiders have), along with some of them just being ridiculous to the point a child might as well have written them. Your Nemesis Halberd is the best literal example of how not to rules-write. Seriously.

You still haven't said anything at all. "It's how not to rules-write. Seriously." I'm glad I don't have to interact with you in real life. I bet you're a joy to discuss anything with.

My vision is the same for them as any other Terminator that's failing and seeing what the others that aren't crap are doing right. Those ones near that edge are the ones with the best damage potential. So basically an elite Shock Trooper.

Again you haven't said anything. This is a garbage answer.

So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.

And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.

I have to agree that most of those ideas are pretty over the top.

I think we should consider the minimum changes that could be made to make GK decent. To me these things are:

Rhinos need fire points back.
All non HQ PAGKs get 2 attacks base and drop by 2 points
Terminators drop to 40 points each with a SB and basic weapon.
Let any GK squad use smite, and hammer hand or astral aim, but those two only on themselves, once each turn without the current limitations, and have these three powers be the only ones they know, but they know all three. So every unit in your army could cast hammer hand if you wanted them to, or smite, or astral aim, and so on.
Let GK use HQs know those three plus 1-2 of the others, and be able to cast on other units like normal, and the normal rules can still apply to the other powers.

This would be a good, conservative place to start, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a points drop and WS/BS2+ for paladins would probably fix most of their issues. No need to reinvent the unit itself.

 Marmatag wrote:
You still haven't said anything at all. "It's how not to rules-write. Seriously." I'm glad I don't have to interact with you in real life. I bet you're a joy to discuss anything with.

My vision is the same for them as any other Terminator that's failing and seeing what the others that aren't crap are doing right. Those ones near that edge are the ones with the best damage potential. So basically an elite Shock Trooper.

Again you haven't said anything. This is a garbage answer.

So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.

And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.

You want to give the basic Grey Knight Strike Squad the Custodes Halberd, and I know for a fact you want to give them and Purifiers an extra attack. So yeah that IS a ridiculous suggestion. You want a 20 point model to have a Rapid Fire 2 S5 Bolter that ignores Invul Saves and has a S6 AP-3 DD3 melee weapon with two attacks.

Think real hard for a moment why someone might think this fix is over the top. It's because it IS over the top.

I gave answers. You just don't like them.

 Marmatag wrote:


So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.

And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.

Calm down mate, your suggestions are too much and you're completely overdoing your argument on GK. Yes, they are in need of work... But lol @ every unit being F tier, and them needing what you suggested just to play. It's hyperbole like this that does more to hurt your cause than help. Let people with a more measured approach do what you are trying to

Frankly I say break them, then nerf them.

I'm gonna call it now, 5pt ork boys.

There's a race to the bottom and marines are stuck in last

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.

And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.

Calm down mate, your suggestions are too much and you're completely overdoing your argument on GK. Yes, they are in need of work... But lol @ every unit being F tier, and them needing what you suggested just to play. It's hyperbole like this that does more to hurt your cause than help. Let people with a more measured approach do what you are trying to

I don't know the changes seem to not be much better then the best stuff other armies have right now. The GK power weapons could do 6 damage per swing and it would still not help much, because the problem with GK is that they can't reach melee, the fact that right now they are also kind of a bad at it is a secondary thing. At least from my point of view.

The lists I have seen have either super fast moving melee units that just melt opposing stuff, or super shoting, often the good armies have both types of units in the same army, and more often then not they also move rather fast. Now this could be my inexpiriance, but right now I think that a good army has to at least move very fast and be either very good at shoting or melee. Just good shoting means the army won't be able to play objectives, and will get hurt by any terrain on the table. And good melee and no way to reach it only works, if the units are really cheap, so even if you lose 60 of them there is still 60 left to kill opponents army.

That is why I agree with the argument that giving GK better hit won't help them. Maybe making them more tanky would, but that would either mean a huge price increase making them suck even more, or they would a really boring non interactive army, where you just spam the best cost to resilient unit camp objective, and hope opponent won't roll above avarge.

Karol wrote:


That is why I agree with the argument that giving GK better hit won't help them. Maybe making them more tanky would, but that would either mean a huge price increase making them suck even more, or they would a really boring non interactive army, where you just spam the best cost to resilient unit camp objective, and hope opponent won't roll above avarge.

That wasn't my argument tho. There's a middle ground just between +1 WS, and going full apeshit on the buffs like a monkey

Are there any other armies that don't have a way for non-vehicle units to charge airborne models besides GK? The only way for a GK army to bring down an airborne unit is through shooting we have no way to deliver a melee attack on one.

Karol wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


So essentially you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and are just spouting off. I've been very detailed in my posts only to receive a "NAH, NUH-UH, UR DUMB" post from you. So i'm bowing out.

And, seriously, giving paladins 2+WS/BS wouldn't do A DAMN THING to help them. Because they aren't making it to combat in the first place. Unbury your head from the sand.

Calm down mate, your suggestions are too much and you're completely overdoing your argument on GK. Yes, they are in need of work... But lol @ every unit being F tier, and them needing what you suggested just to play. It's hyperbole like this that does more to hurt your cause than help. Let people with a more measured approach do what you are trying to

I don't know the changes seem to not be much better then the best stuff other armies have right now. The GK power weapons could do 6 damage per swing and it would still not help much, because the problem with GK is that they can't reach melee, the fact that right now they are also kind of a bad at it is a secondary thing. At least from my point of view.

The lists I have seen have either super fast moving melee units that just melt opposing stuff, or super shoting, often the good armies have both types of units in the same army, and more often then not they also move rather fast. Now this could be my inexpiriance, but right now I think that a good army has to at least move very fast and be either very good at shoting or melee. Just good shoting means the army won't be able to play objectives, and will get hurt by any terrain on the table. And good melee and no way to reach it only works, if the units are really cheap, so even if you lose 60 of them there is still 60 left to kill opponents army.

That is why I agree with the argument that giving GK better hit won't help them. Maybe making them more tanky would, but that would either mean a huge price increase making them suck even more, or they would a really boring non interactive army, where you just spam the best cost to resilient unit camp objective, and hope opponent won't roll above avarge.

Nobody is saying GK doesn't need a revamp. What I'm saying is that the fixes proposed by that particular user were insane. Did you SEE that Storm Bolter fix they proposed? They would want a 20 point model to have:
1. A Rapid Fire 2 S5 weapon that ignores Invul Saves
2. 2 attacks at S6 AP-3 DD3 OR
3. 4 attacks at AP-2 DD3 OR
4. 2 attacks at AP-3 that somehow give them a bonus to their save

The guy can't balance. End of story.

Rapid fire 2 that ignores invul doesn't matter because it has no ap. It is only good against demonic hordes. S5 is debatable.

2 attacks at S6 ap3 DD3 is essentially what purifiers had last codex. They would cast hammerhead and force. Goodbye multiwouND models.

So no you are wrong. We already HAD this and we were bad.

 Quickjager wrote:
Rapid fire 2 that ignores invul doesn't matter because it has no ap. It is only good against demonic hordes. S5 is debatable.

2 attacks at S6 ap3 DD3 is essentially what purifiers had last codex. They would cast hammerhead and force. Goodbye multiwouND models.

So no you are wrong. We already HAD this and we were bad.

No, it's ridiculous vs Daemons. S5 also becomes S6 because the Psybolts Strategem exists, and it needs to go down a CP anyway. It's basically paying 1CP for S6 AP-1 ignoring Invul. That's silly, sorry.

Also Purifiers didn't have 2 attacks last codex I'm pretty sure. Either way, you had to cast those powers. S6 with Hammerhead is silly again. It's not "essentially" what they had last edition. At all.

They did Slayer, are you seriously telling ME, THIS GUY, I don't remember my codex right.

And it was what they essentially had last edition because the powers were relatively easy to get off it had like something of a 60% chance to get both off. Also they could have 3 attacks last edition so you can argue they were even BETTER.

Also if you read Marmatags suggestions he was suggesting off a earlier post that they get the S5 based off a pre-game stratagem where if they pay a CP cost all eligible weapons would get psybolts.

If you dig further into the post you can see he is just joking about or parodying half the rules. Like the if Grey Knights keyword is slain by Daemons it may return at no cost.

S6 is barely even something you even want. S4 with +1 to wound hammerhand is great except only one unit can do it, and the psybolt strategem is pretty good too, granted it is also only on one unit.

That's why I think rhino fire points, +1 attack on all power armor dudes, and no limit on certain buff powers would be enough changes to start with.

I would like to see the old option for psybolt rifle dreads to come back, but that's only because I own two of them lol.

Rhino fire points just are not good for Power Armor anything anymore.

If you are going to put durable guys in a durable box just to use their firepower, you went wrong somewhere. The ideal unit to put in a Rhino would be a minimum squad that has nothing but Heavy or special weapons, which as we know Space Marines have nothing like that. The Rhino is a flawed unit in the current state. I would love for the Rhino to go down in points, lose some wounds, lose the ability to hold objectives, gain some movement.

The reason venoms and other Eldar strike craft are actually good is because they have WEAK guys in them that then are moved large distances to their most efficient target. They can also shoot out of the vehicles and get bonuses from doing so, i.e. splinter-racks or whatever they are called.

The Rhino is a flawed vehicle, just like the Razorback is a flawed vehicle.

Marines are not very durable, though, and being able to shoot out of a rhino seems better than not being able to. At least then you get to decide when you want to stay in the tank and be fairly effective and when to get out and be more effective but vulnerable.

If you want to make vehicles more useful rather than fire ports allow units to disembark after the vehicle moves. Just make it that they are not allowed to charge or enter melee after they exit the vehicle unless it is an assault type vehicle. And of course they count as having moved for shooting purposes.

True they are not durable anymore, but they still pay for what they have. Because of that we come to one conclusion... Tac Marines are garbage.

Purifiers had 2 attacks, unless my codex was expertly doctored while I was out.

So yeah on the charge they had 3 attacks,

Oh, I can confirm. Purifiers had 2 atk. Every GK player know it.
And just to be sure, I took my old codexes.
5 edition: 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+. 2 is the Attak value. 3 with falchions. 4 on charge. EACH
6/7 edition: 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 9 3+. Again 2 is the Attack value.

Helbard gave us +1 S but staff gave us +2. (Not in 5 ed where alabard gave us +2 to initiative, that can’t work on 8th edition)

So, we already had a way to have +2 on our weapons, and we had, also, the psychic power that grented us +2 on S, and, guess it, we could use it on ALL our units.

So, please, don’t bothering us with those ideas without knowing the rules.

We had the possibility to hit with S8 without penalty, and no one cared about it. There was worst combo. No one used it.

Ooo I wasn't around for +2 initiative for halbards. God forbid we got actual rules to weigh between weapon options

you guys make a good point, what seems like too much at initial glance might actually be alright for them. I'm going to say that maybe I was too quick to discount the opinions of people who actually main the army (although often that is where the most exaggerated accounts come from). I still think some of Marmatag's suggestions might be a little over the top tho.

3 attacks wasn't even their upper limit. They could hit 4 if they had falchions equipped.

Man, I wish I could play them with the old rules. If I got a 5th ed codex, would I be able to play them in this edition.

No, 5th edition has a very different rules set to 8th. You are only supposed to use the Codex that belongs to that specific rules set.