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Would it fix GK a bit, if all the spells weren't spells but just abilities? So there would be no deny, each unit would have limited access to them like they have now, while character would be more flexible and would be able to pick 1-3 depending which one it is,

 LunarSol wrote:
Also, the daemon rule is probably the one thing in 8th I cannot comment on in any sort of rational or polite manner.

Yes, this stratagem was an absolute slap in the face to the Grey Knight army.

It was probably an attempt to make it so A daemon player might actually consider a game with a GK player. However - they went TOO FAR!

Karol wrote:
Would it fix GK a bit, if all the spells weren't spells but just abilities? So there would be no deny, each unit would have limited access to them like they have now, while character would be more flexible and would be able to pick 1-3 depending which one it is,

Their powers need a rewrite, that's just all there is to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was probably an attempt to make it so A daemon player might actually consider a game with a GK player. However - they went TOO FAR!

Any daemon player worth his salt would curb stomp Grey Knights into the floor even without this stratagem.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It was probably an attempt to make it so A daemon player might actually consider a game with a GK player. However - they went TOO FAR!

I mean, I know it was sort of a waste of their time to set up a whole game just to table the Grey Knights in the first turn, but I really don't see how this helped.

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't agree with some of the things said here, so let's back up. Instead of arguing what is worse, let's grade out the powers, evaluated in the context of GK and how they operate.


Gate of Infinity: C
I give this power a C because it can only be used on Grey Knights keyword models. With unreliable charges and poor shooting overall, Gate of Infinity is useful primarily in that it allows for the potential movement of otherwise essentially immobile squads. Should you run overpriced vehicles, they can be gated out of combat, although that begs the question, why are you running these vehicles in the first place?

Astral Aim: B
This power would be an "A" in any other codex, it is fantastic in what it aims to do, it is just unfortunate that it is found in the Grey Knight codex. Shooting without line of sight is only as good as the guns you're actually shooting. Grey Knights lack meaningful firepower. Ignoring cover is okay but not great.

Hammerhand: C-
Another power that really doesn't get any meaningful use because it requires being cast before the charge is made. If the game shifts into the realms of lower model counts and high toughness targets with no invulnerable save, this power could move up the ranks as it would allow strength 5 weapons to wound T8 on 4s. But again, the delivery system of Grey Knights is so bad that it doesn't actually provide much to the army. Only affecting one unit really hurts this power. As an aura it might be better. Consider the blood angels chapter tactic, dramatically better, and still mediocre.

Sanctuary: B
This is a solid power, the ability to increment an invulnerable save is essential to an army that cannot afford to lose any models. This power right here gives your GMNDK a chance to survive. Since the codex is built around leveraging this specific model, and given its general uses, this power is solid, wholly because it makes your best unit better. Outside of this, it can be cast on terminators wielding a nemesis force stave, so when in combat, they would have a 3++. Again not game breaking, but given the context of this awful army, it's a solid power. Unfortunately it only affects one squad, which makes it incredibly easy to play around.

Purge Soul: C-
This power's use can be summed up in 2 specific cases: Firstly, when you want to attempt to swing mortal wounds at a character with mediocre leadership (8, or 9). You can potentially deal 5 mortal wounds on 1 cast target a character. Secondly, when facing low-leadership units. Unfortunately the number of these units are actually really small. Units like Ork Boyz are functionally immune because of their morale rules. The idea is nice, but the execution is poor.

Vortex of Doom: F
While this may not be the worst power in the game, it is certainly terrible, it's expected mortal wounds is pathetic, and its high casting value means it's failing quite a bit. The use cases are further limited, if it is cast in combat, you will hit your own psyker should you succeed. In essence, a smite with less range, that is more difficult to cast, and can hurt your dudes. Normally you'd ask "why not just cast smite?" Well, that brings us to the next power. If Grey Knights were suddenly buffed to Custodes level awesome, this power would still not see use.

Smite / Rites of Banishment - 12" Range: F
The worst smite in the game deals 1 mortal wound instead of D3/D6, and is cast at 12" instead of 18". Even Grey Knight librarians have this power, making them a wholly worthless choice in the army. The head of ITC and GW beta testers has commented on this very forum that if you're casting smite as Grey Knights, you're doing it wrong. You do deal 3 mortal wounds to daemons, but be careful not to kill them or they'll just come back.

Smite / Rites of Banishment - 3" Range: D-
The ability to do a guaranteed D6 mortal wounds with smite sound amazing, and anyone who has never played Grey Knights before is salivating at the thought of doing this to someone. Unfortunately this ability only comes on Purifiers, which are 140 points for 5 basic strike marines, and Castellan Crowe, the HQ with a chainsword and storm bolter. People who let you get in range with this spell are the kind of opponents you need as Grey Knights to make them playable. In the context of Grey Knights, if the army functioned, this power might function too, which is why it gets better than an F. And remember, D6 expects 3.5. D3 expects 2. So this is still barely better damage wise than a normal smite, but doesn't have that 18" range.

And these are my grades. Some of the powers being discussed I would also grade very low. Remember, too, there is no "F-," because an F means failure, and you do not receive a grade.

I would like to read your considerations (like this one) also related to GK units, traits and relics.

The rest of it becomes more depressing, honestly.

Storm Raven / Land Raider / Razorback / Rhino / Dreadnought: D
Worse than their marine counterparts across the board, because they do not have access to wound rerolls. In the case of the Dreadnought, it is actually more expensive, but can cast a power. This is laughable considering how bad the powers are. The ability to cast one very weak psychic power is not worth the extra points. Land Raiders, Razorbacks, and Storm Ravens are made semi-usable by rerolls, which the Grey Knights have trouble producing. No wound rerolls, as mentioned, and also, only Draigo - at 240 points - can provide full hit rerolls. Because of the overall limited model line, these also lack the synergy that you might traditionally expect from these units.

Named HQs: D
Draigo, Voldus, Castellan Crowe, are a sorry lot. Draigo provides some value in that he can give your army full hit rerolls, and is durable enough with a T4/3++. All in all these guys don't provide anything unique. Voldus gives you reroll 1s and an extra power. Castellan Crowe's big thing is that he has a fluffy sword which has strength 4, and no AP. Color me depressed, that is an awful weapon for a named HQ. Their warlord traits are just plain bad. Draigo's is specific to daemons, and if you're in your right mind you won't want any of your GK dealing the final wound to anything daemon. Voldus gets an extra power, but again, that doesn't really help you considering you don't have more than 2 powers really worth casting. Castellan has a D6 smite but again, at 3" it really doesn't do much for you, since he needs to be in combat but will be summarily wrecked by anything that is designed for combat and worth hitting with potentially 6 mortal wounds. In essence you've got some overpriced reroll babysitters with strong melee profiles but no mobility or way to get there. Bring Draigo for the rerolls, and then realize you can do the same thing with a jump pack captain essentially for 96 points in any marine army.

Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight: B
Being T6, 2+/4++, and able to pump out 18 shots at middle range, with deep strike, for essentially 300 points. He's super expensive, but can hold his own in melee against other big things, and if he's in trouble he can exit with Gate of Infinity. Works well with Sanctuary, because 4++ is somewhat unreliable, but 3++ is balls out awesome on a big buddy who can deal damage. All in all it's a solid unit, if a bit overpriced. If you roll your 4++ fairly well these can be really problematic for your opponent. If your dice are cold he'll drop like a bag of dirt. Is targetable, and will be targeted, since he costs 300 points and gives up 4 Kingslayer points.

Non-Named HQs: D+
These guys come in higher than their named counterparts because they can provide rerolls or other buffs, but allow you to select your warlord trait so you aren't stuck with garbage, and also, will save you points. You'll always want the reroll charge. Additionally, you can take relics. While almost all of them are complete garbage, you can get a feel no pain on your warlord, which helps you survive and deny slay the warlord. But when it comes to actually accomplishing something on the table they're found wanting for the same reasons as their named brethren - they don't offer enough utility, they aren't scary enough in melee, and they aren't mobile. How often do you see marine players bringing a terminator captain? Right.

Grey Knight Librarian: F
Wanted to single this guy out as being one of the most useless models in all of 40kdom. He is the only librarian in the game with the 1 wound smite. You must bring him with terminator armor. He is bad. Very bad. I did want to call this out though, because in the index the Grey Knight librarian didn't have Rites of Banishment, which meant that he used to have the full D3/D6 smite. This would have made for an interesting list, because the brother captain can double smite range. Dropping smites with no penalty at 36" would be neat. Although the rule of 3 would render this strategy pointless, it would have been interesting to see a list full of these, with stormshields and force staves, smiting everyone's face off. Of course this is all theorycraft based on the game at 8th edition launch.. granted that is the only fun way to play as or against Grey Knights - on paper.

Strike Squads: C+
If they were a part of a functional codex they wouldn't be half bad. They are essentially 21 point storm bolters with a marine wrapping. Yes, they have melee, but good luck honestly getting them there, and even if you do, they have 1 attack per model. They suffer from the same problems as most melee marine units that don't have specific stratagems or jump packs. They are slow. Their transports are bad. Consider this - any time you don't have them on the board actually shooting or fighting, it's wasted points, and that's a lot of points. And they aren't cheap. In essence, you're paying 7 extra points per model for a storm bolter and a pathetic psychic power, with a deny. Sternguard are flatly superior, as are deathwatch. One of your two troop choices in the codex, in order to make a battalion that is a minimum investment of 315 points in troops, for 15 models, with no invulnerable saves.

Interceptors: D+
More expensive strike marines that are a bit faster and can make a once-per-game shunt (deep strike). Occupy a fast attack slot. You'll never make a brigade, since they're not troops, they're unlikely to see play.

Terminators: F
Terminators in general are terrible, and Grey Knight terminators are made worse by the fact that they have limited wargear options - no stormshields, terrible heavy weapons, and don't come stock with a power fist, they come with force swords, and you must pay extra for a hammer, when everyone else has power fists baked in. They do get a psychic power, and are troops, but neither of those things matter since the rest of their status makes them unplayable. Fun fact: these are almost 50 points per model. For 2 melee attacks base and a storm bolter. Of course, you can pay extra so they have attacks with strength higher than 4.

Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.

Purgation Squad: C-
A heavy weapon squad that has the same baseline as the strike squads. In order to bring a heavy weapon as a Grey Knight, you must drop your force weapon. So these guys are similar to basic space marines, but different in that they lose a significant piece of wargear and pay points to get a heavy weapon. Psilencers, Incinerators, and Psycannons are all rather bad. Incinerators could be good if they were cheaper. They aren't, so they're not. The best thing these can do is volume of shots, but there are far cheaper, more durable ways to get dice volumes, and with better synergy. If you really need to chew up lots of little things with shooting, are you aware that deathwatch exist?

Purifier Squad: F
You'll pay a base 140 points for a strike squad that has a D6 smite at 3". That's the difference here. Same attacks, etc. The only difference is you can bring 2 garbage heavy weapons per 5 instead of 1. For a base cost of +35 points, in an army that is already struggling with pricey models. And these still die just as fast as strike marines. These also have no unique stratagem to make them useful, and nothing that synergizes with their heavy weapons.

All in all there is little synergy between Grey Knights units, and their wargear is very poor. If you want to mass storm bolters there are better ways to get volume of shots, whether it be sisters of battle, deathwatch, or just raven guard. If you want to fight in melee, there are better ways to do this, as well, that are cheaper, and faster. Consider both Custodes and Blood Angels, who synergize well with imperial guard and can actually make it into combat. Their HQ slots are robust and their relics enhance them greatly. And if you need psychic powers in your imperium, there are cheaper ways to do it, and any other army will actually have real smite, which in a take-all-comers scenario is far and away the best choice. Even a normal non-Grey Knights psyker can still hit a daemon for 3 mortal wounds with his smite. Finally, should you find yourself facing daemons, the last thing you want is Grey Knights, as they'll allow the opponent to revive slain units effortlessly.

 Marmatag wrote:

Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.

I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.

Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!

I have 2 squads of strikes, 2 purgation, 5 terminators, 3 paladins, apothecary, an ancient, Voldus and a brother captain and a rhino I repainted from my Gladius (frankly I don't think I'll be using that many vehicles ever again)

I'm not saying I feel like I wasted my money, but...

I was really excited for the codex originally and now I'm glad I haven't bought it yet. Which says a lot about about a faction, I'm glad I haven't purchased more.

What a depressing thread

kombatwombat wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.

I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.

Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!

Fully decked out squad of paladins is **I think** 770 or around there. So yeah, they’re comparable in price, but have a worse toughness, invuln, weapon, 10 less wounds and less ws and bs and worse movement.

How often does GW re-do their armies, every tournament seson or is it possible for them to do it ad hoc, considering Grey Knights are so bad?

In fact why didn't GW errata them already, if 2/3 of the codex is F ranked.

They also have worse Stratagems than the Custodes, but they don’t have worse weapons. At 736 points that squad is going to be rocking Daemonhammers, which match the Custodes’ Str 8, have one better AP and have fixed 3 Dmg as opposed to D3, admittedly at the cost of -1 to hit. They’ll also have 6 Storm Bolters - which are about equal the shooting part of 6 Castellan Axes as twice the number of shots at half the damage is better, but the Custodes have -1 AP - and 4 Psycannons. The Psycannons are better than 4 Castellan Axes shooting, but not enough to equal the Custodes also getting Grenade Launchers.

All in all, with the Paladins having the better close combat weapons but the Allarus having the better shooting I’d say the weapons are about equal.

The GK also have psychic powers and the ability to deny powers effectively (which is really useful for an elite army). Overall the 15pts/model difference isn’t big enough for the Custodes’ other advantages.

Karol wrote:
How often does GW re-do their armies, every tournament seson or is it possible for them to do it ad hoc, considering Grey Knights are so bad?

In fact why didn't GW errata them already, if 2/3 of the codex is F ranked.

No-one knows when they redo codexes. My guess is we'll see new versions of some codexes within year but which order is another thing. Likely decided by whatever miniature sculptors have been up to.

tneva82 wrote:

Karol wrote:
How often does GW re-do their armies, every tournament seson or is it possible for them to do it ad hoc, considering Grey Knights are so bad?

In fact why didn't GW errata them already, if 2/3 of the codex is F ranked.

No-one knows when they redo codexes. My guess is we'll see new versions of some codexes within year but which order is another thing. Likely decided by whatever miniature sculptors have been up to.

This is very unlikely.
GW is releasing new edition of AoS and moreover there are several armies that don't have a codex yet. In addition Sisters of battle will be released (probably) on January. According to this this year we will not see second edition of already released codex.
Despite this I believe that in 8th edition GW will release more than one codex for some or every armies, with the release of new models. But not tis year.

Anyway, GK will be "fixed", according to Cruddace sentence, on CA. This confirms that it is very unlikely to see new codex within this year, and if they will not release a new GK codex probably they will not release any second edition codex.

 Danarc wrote:
GW is releasing new edition of AoS and moreover there are several armies that don't have a codex yet. In addition Sisters of battle will be released (probably) on January. According to this this year we will not see second edition of already released codex.
Despite this I believe that in 8th edition GW will release more than one codex for some or every armies, with the release of new models. But not tis year.

Anyway, GK will be "fixed", according to Cruddace sentence, on CA. This confirms that it is very unlikely to see new codex within this year, and if they will not release a new GK codex probably they will not release any second edition codex.

AOS has btw already had multiple versions of their versions of codex so...

Sisters coming even in december 2019 wouldn't affect new editions. There's no law requiring GW to do full set of codexes before redoing AND INDEED THEY HAVE HISTORY OF REVERSE! It's super hyper mega rare for GW to actually release complete set of codexes before mark 2 comes. Like maybe once in the history of GW? Maybe 2. No more than that. And that is becoming more and more unlikely with new factions...

Anyway, GK will be "fixed", according to Cruddace sentence, on CA. This confirms that it is very unlikely to see new codex within this year, and if they will not release a new GK codex probably they will not release any second edition codex.

That is a long time to wait. Did GW ever explain why they aren't fixing stuff faster. I get that they want to sell the codex, but am sure they make more on the models, and with bad rules no one isgoing to be buying more grey knights models. Seems like they are shoting themself in the foot, on top of making customers unhappy, and yes I know that a companies job is not to make people happy, but to pay dividends.

How is a max unit of paladins banned under ITC? I don't see anything that would limit the unit (except for the general point limit/detachment limit).

The only explanation I can think of is that they don't really understand their own game, or have much foresight when it comes to what certain changes to the game or to specific units will do to the game.

Any time they make a change you would think they would go down a list and ask "so how does this interact with X unit/faction?" and "now that we've changed X thing what are X faction players going to do?" to make sure that the game is actually improving, and at least make the most obvious counter changes to avoid situations like GK being terrible due to FAQs that otherwise improve the game.

That being said, balancing the game is definitely a lot of work, and it's probably not as easy as we want it to be. They have also committed to try to balance it 2-3 times a year, which is definitely laudable. We'll see what they do in the next year or so once the codexes are all out and they have more time to balance things.

Apparently, GW’s dev team individually bid for which codex/army they want to work on, which is why we see a skew in which codexes are always completed first versus the one that are always last or never completed at all.

What a horrible way to run a product line. It’s like they have no clue how a business works.

SJ

Karol wrote:
How often does GW re-do their armies, every tournament seson or is it possible for them to do it ad hoc, considering Grey Knights are so bad?

In fact why didn't GW errata them already, if 2/3 of the codex is F ranked.

Just remember, 2/3's of the codex may not be F ranked. It's definitely a weak book which needs a re-do, but to call every single unit the worst possible unit in the game might be the kind of exaggeration that shows why GW doesn't just blindly start implementing random forum comments from users.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.

I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.

Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!

Custodes have way better stratagems, and no one runs paladins with daemon hammers. You put one on the sergeant since he's 2+ but the rest you want Halberds or Falchions. Most people modeled with Falchions because it's the best in take-all-comers scenario.

Let's also remember that a squad of custodes will have at least 1, or 2, storm shields, which means they've got a 3++. Paladins having a 5+ invulnerable save, versus the Custodes 3+ invulnerable save, is really what makes the battle skew ugly in Custodes favor.

And to point out:

These are just my grades. They are not formal assignments of any kind and i'm sure many people would disagree, but if so we could have a debate because i feel pretty knowledgeable about this codex.

My personal opinion of GK, and how to fix them, would be as follows:

1. Give them access to all the Astartes psychic disciplines (space wolves, blood angels, adeptus astartes, dark angels) as well as Inquisition discipline. Suddenly they have some really good powers. Specifically what is in the Sanguinary discipline would really help out. 10 Terminators with wings of Sanguinius? Actually not half bad.

2. Expand their force org to include Inquisition. Currently inquisition is an absolute joke of an army, and the current soup rules make them just plain putrid.

3. Expand their force org to include assassins.

4. Redefine the melee weapons as follows:

(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.
(e) Nemesis Force Stave: +1 to deny the witch attempts

5. Redefine the ranged weapons as follows:

(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(b) Psycannon: Increase range to 36", increase damage to D3, and AP-2.
(c) Psilencer: Change to assault. Can target psykers & daemons regardless of character targeting rules.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.

6. Update rites of banishment. Remove the "Grey Knights never suffer a penalty to cast smite," let them suffer a penalty, but also give them d3 smite. Their smite can never deal D6, but it should deal D3. Additionally, drop the 3" d6 smite. Replace with cleansing flame, which hits all enemy units within 6" with 2d6 strength 6 ap-1 auto-hits.

7. Give them the following stratagems (I am not naming them, i'll just describe).

(a) 1CP. Used when a unit of paladins or terminators is the target of a ranged or melee attack. For the remainder of this phase, reduce the damage of attacks targeting this unit by 1 to a minimum of 1.

(b) 1CP. Improve the range of the next psychic power you cast by 6"

(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.

(d) 2CP. Add 2" to the next charge you make.

(e) 1CP. Used when a unit is targeted in the shooting phase. Reduce hit rolls against this unit by -1.

(f) 2CP. Use at the end of your opponent's psychic phase. You may cast one power.

Essentially with these changes we could probably leave the points alone for the most part and the army would be functional.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Apparently, GW’s dev team individually bid for which codex/army they want to work on, which is why we see a skew in which codexes are always completed first versus the one that are always last or never completed at all.

What a horrible way to run a product line. It’s like they have no clue how a business works.

SJ

Yeah - I couldn't have said it better myself.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Apparently, GW’s dev team individually bid for which codex/army they want to work on, which is why we see a skew in which codexes are always completed first versus the one that are always last or never completed at all.

What a horrible way to run a product line. It’s like they have no clue how a business works.

SJ

I need more information. What do you mean bid for them? What do they bid with, ideas? And is there a source for this?

 Marmatag wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Paladins: F
I know there is no F-, but it needs to be highlighted just how badly these fail. They cost sooo much in points that a squad of 10 is not allowed in the ITC format because things that expensive are generally broken. In reality they're just 3 wound terminators, with all the same problems that terminators have above. With their snails-pace movement, after they disembark / deep strike in, your opponent will enjoy just ignoring them, or blasting them down with multi-damage weapons. Charge these into a squad of custodes, fight first, and lose. Horribly. You have no paladin specific stratagems or buffs. No paladin HQ. Nothing. They are more expensive terminators that don't provide any additional value over terminators.

I was going to scoff at you about that until I did the maths. Wow. Custodes aren’t undercosted outside of Dawneagles, so Paladins (hell, all Terminators of any stripe) need to come crashing down in price.

Also, you think Paladins cost sooo much? A fully kitted squad of Custodes Terminators is 880 points!

Custodes have way better stratagems, and no one runs paladins with daemon hammers. You put one on the sergeant since he's 2+ but the rest you want Halberds or Falchions. Most people modeled with Falchions because it's the best in take-all-comers scenario.

Let's also remember that a squad of custodes will have at least 1, or 2, storm shields, which means they've got a 3++. Paladins having a 5+ invulnerable save, versus the Custodes 3+ invulnerable save, is really what makes the battle skew ugly in Custodes favor.

And to point out:

These are just my grades. They are not formal assignments of any kind and i'm sure many people would disagree, but if so we could have a debate because i feel pretty knowledgeable about this codex.

My personal opinion of GK, and how to fix them, would be as follows:

1. Give them access to all the Astartes psychic disciplines (space wolves, blood angels, adeptus astartes, dark angels) as well as Inquisition discipline. Suddenly they have some really good powers. Specifically what is in the Sanguinary discipline would really help out. 10 Terminators with wings of Sanguinius? Actually not half bad.

2. Expand their force org to include Inquisition. Currently inquisition is an absolute joke of an army, and the current soup rules make them just plain putrid.

3. Expand their force org to include assassins.

4. Redefine the melee weapons as follows:

(a) Nemesis Force Sword: +1 save, +1 invuln in melee (5+ if don't have one)
(b) Nemesis Force Halberd: AP-3, up from AP-2, and strength +2, up from +1
(c) Nemesis Falchions: +2 attacks, up from +1
(d) Nemesis Daemon Hammer: No penalty to hit, strength +5, AP-4, 3 damage.
(e) Nemesis Force Stave: +1 to deny the witch attempts

5. Redefine the ranged weapons as follows:

(a) Storm Bolter: Replace with Grey Knights Stormbolter, which is strength 5. Against daemons, it ignores invulnerable saves, but stays AP-.
(b) Psycannon: Increase range to 36", increase damage to D3, and AP-2.
(c) Psilencer: Change to assault. Can target psykers & daemons regardless of character targeting rules.
(d) Incinerators: Change to 12" range.

6. Update rites of banishment. Remove the "Grey Knights never suffer a penalty to cast smite," let them suffer a penalty, but also give them d3 smite. Their smite can never deal D6, but it should deal D3. Additionally, drop the 3" d6 smite. Replace with cleansing flame, which hits all enemy units within 6" with 2d6 strength 6 ap-1 auto-hits.

7. Give them the following stratagems (I am not naming them, i'll just describe).

(a) 1CP. Used when a unit of paladins or terminators is the target of a ranged or melee attack. For the remainder of this phase, reduce the damage of attacks targeting this unit by 1 to a minimum of 1.

(b) 1CP. Improve the range of the next psychic power you cast by 6"

(c) 2CP. When a unit with the Grey Knights keyword is slain by a unit with the daemon keyword, you may set it back up as though it has arrived from deep strike. This does not cost reinforcements.

(d) 2CP. Add 2" to the next charge you make.

(e) 1CP. Used when a unit is targeted in the shooting phase. Reduce hit rolls against this unit by -1.

(f) 2CP. Use at the end of your opponent's psychic phase. You may cast one power.

Essentially with these changes we could probably leave the points alone for the most part and the army would be functional.

Standard dreadknights still would need work.

Paladins would still need 4 wounds and more attacks/storm shields.

Karol wrote:
Would it fix GK a bit, if all the spells weren't spells but just abilities? So there would be no deny, each unit would have limited access to them like they have now, while character would be more flexible and would be able to pick 1-3 depending which one it is,

I’ve thought about this as well, essentially give them something like acts of faith where they choose between hammerhand, sanctuary, and maybe something unit-specific.

Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.

That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.

That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.

The sergeant is the only one (and doesn't have the BS2+) is the point. If you look at it over time, it's 5/6 attacks landing with two dudes instead of 4, and then eventually with four dudes outside the Sergeant that's 10/12 instead of 8. That actually adds up instead of being a non-factor and doesn't make them attack more than a Custodes for whatever reason. It also makes them better with their range weapons, seeing as their saturation doesn't gain a lot of benefit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I just want to add your majority of fixes show you don't have much of a grasp for game balance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.

That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.

The sergeant is the only one (and doesn't have the BS2+) is the point. If you look at it over time, it's 5/6 attacks landing with two dudes instead of 4, and then eventually with four dudes outside the Sergeant that's 10/12 instead of 8. That actually adds up instead of being a non-factor and doesn't make them attack more than a Custodes for whatever reason. It also makes them better with their range weapons, seeing as their saturation doesn't gain a lot of benefit.

The core problems with paladins are much greater than just "hitting on 3s."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also I just want to add your majority of fixes show you don't have much of a grasp for game balance.

Is this how you talk to people in a casual conversation? Or are you just That Guy behind the anonymity wall?

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Paladins need WS/BS2+ standard and suddenly those three attacks they have make sense.

That will change nothing. The sergeant already has that, and it's a non factor.

The sergeant is the only one (and doesn't have the BS2+) is the point. If you look at it over time, it's 5/6 attacks landing with two dudes instead of 4, and then eventually with four dudes outside the Sergeant that's 10/12 instead of 8. That actually adds up instead of being a non-factor and doesn't make them attack more than a Custodes for whatever reason. It also makes them better with their range weapons, seeing as their saturation doesn't gain a lot of benefit.

The core problems with paladins are much greater than just "hitting on 3s."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also I just want to add your majority of fixes show you don't have much of a grasp for game balance.

Is this how you talk to people in a casual conversation? Or are you just That Guy behind the anonymity wall?

I kinda agree. No need to attack someone by saying they don’t know balence, especially without putting out evidence to explain why. It just comes off as rude and unflattering.