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Or he's lying.

 Crimson wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well people at my store refused to play the SoB player, because he was running her and 30 seraphin and locking down armies in melee. No one liked it, so they stoped playing her. But that is just my store.

Wait, your store where everyone is an ultracompetitive git who refuse to tone down their lists for your Grey Knights? What a bunch of hypocritical wussies!

Am not sure I understand what you mean by that. What is a git, in the first place? As toning down goes, no one tones does stuff here for anyone. So it ain't something special, because of me or GK. Also what does me or GK have to do with people not wanting to play against SoB at my store in the first place. I am confused.

Karol wrote:
Well people at my store refused to play the SoB player, because he was running her and 30 seraphin and locking down armies in melee. No one liked it, so they stoped playing her. But that is just my store.

Now include T4 vs T3 into your equation. So the sisters hit 2/3 (2) and wound 1. Space marines hit .67/2 (1.34) (.89) Seems rather close to even.

But if sobs are cheaper, then at some point you reach 1500 or 2000pts, and sob have an army build while marines end up with 8-9man sized squads, because they cost more points.

Our AoFs ARE our gimmicks- how do you compete when every other Codex out there has gimmicks and ours don’t even work?

Play a lot vs GK whose gimmik does not work either

So what were they playing that means they could not cope with SOB? Smells like deep deep Gunline players perhaps? - did they ban terrain as well so they always won. Can;t see Trynaid, Orks, genestealers being afraid of such an army. Or Kingts or in fact lots of armies.

Sounds pathetic.

Karol wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Karol wrote:
Well people at my store refused to play the SoB player, because he was running her and 30 seraphin and locking down armies in melee. No one liked it, so they stoped playing her. But that is just my store.

Wait, your store where everyone is an ultracompetitive git who refuse to tone down their lists for your Grey Knights? What a bunch of hypocritical wussies!

Am not sure I understand what you mean by that. What is a git, in the first place? As toning down goes, no one tones does stuff here for anyone. So it ain't something special, because of me or GK. Also what does me or GK have to do with people not wanting to play against SoB at my store in the first place. I am confused.

Git = asshat

The intention of his point was, that they ban the only competitive viable SOB build, but refuse to tone down their lists to make it possible for a GK player to even compete, ergo they are hypocrits, that only play for their wins, not for the general fun of all people involved.
(Basically your store is full of TFG)

He's insulting the other people who play at your store.

They're people who have no problem ROFLStomping GK regularly. That kinda person is either a highly competitive player tying to become The Best Evar, or an ultra doochy man-child who's primary drive in life is drinking the tears of those they stomp.

Most of us were hoping your meta was the first group. Those are decent people. But if they won't play against Sisters specifically because they get stomped, they're clearly the second group.

Karol wrote:


Am not sure I understand what you mean by that. What is a git, in the first place? As toning down goes, no one tones does stuff here for anyone. So it ain't something special, because of me or GK. Also what does me or GK have to do with people not wanting to play against SoB at my store in the first place. I am confused.

He is pointing out the cognitive dissonance in that statement. People refusing to play against SoB because they are perceived as too powerful and also refusing to tone down their army's when facing Grey Knights is inherently hypocritical. Logically they shouldn't have it both ways. Basically, ask them "why should the SoB player have to tone down her list to your level when you won't do the same for my army?" Either everybody needs to 'l2p' or they need to be adults and recognize that GW isn't great at balancing and maybe they need to work together to make enjoyable games.

Also a 'git' is an English insult basically meaning somebody is 'unpleasant, silly, incompetent, and childish'. Its popular in 40K circles both because of GW's English origin and the popular cockney hooligan portrayal of Orks- who often refer to their enemies (and other orks and grots) as "gits".

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
TiL having worse stats is better...

It actually is if the model isn't overpointed. Think about the current example of Sisters vs Marines. You basically compare, with 3 sisters being 27 and 2 Marines being 26...
1. 3 T3 wounds to 2 T4 wounds
2. Which is 3 3+ compared to 2 3+
3. 3 BS3+ Bolter shots instead of 2 BS3+ Bolter shots
4. 3 S3 attacks that hit on a 4+ to 2 S4 attacks that hit on a 3+

The melee is basically even (and both suck in melee anyway) but the durability and damage output is just better with the Sisters. Them being cheaper also means more easily fit in Special Weapons too. Who cares if they have limited access if they fit in everything easier?

Now include T4 vs T3 into your equation. So the sisters hit 2/3 (2) and wound 1. Space marines hit .67/2 (1.34) (.89) Seems rather close to even.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Celestine needed to be hit anyway, so nice try saying that was such a nerf.

Also saying you were only reliant on that singular strategy is silly. Like, do you actually PLAY Sisters? You have one of the single best transports in the game (Repressors), speed all over the map, and cheap units.

Also "sniping" characters is laughable. You can't even snipe Guard Commanders and they're WAY less durable!

1. Subjective.

2. At the competative level, yes that was it. In more casual environments you can get away with more, though it's still an uphill battle. As for those repressors, sure they're good. But to use them as you describe now requires you to give up all of the beta advantages.

3. Yes difficult, but not impossible.

1. Not subjective. Celestine needed to be hit.
2. No you don't give up anything using Repressors. I don't even know why you'd make that up.
3. Please tell me what can kill even a Guard Commander on the cheap that's a Sniper. I await your findings.

1. Yes Subjective. Just because YOU can't handle her doesn't make her broken, especially in the context of her own army.
2. Because I didn't make it up. If you're using Repressor's speed, you're not getting acts of faith for it, or the warlord buffs. Remember, the only model that can take buffs that actually help a repressor are all foot infantry.
3. Who said on the cheap? I said you had to work for it, not that it was impossible. Please read my comments next time.

1. She was allied into several armies outside Sistersjust for her power alone. Being able to catch anyone you want in melee, coming back after dying, and her bodyguards catching wounds and coming back too, were all over the top. This has been a thing since the edition started. Like, did you forget all this already?
2. I already included T3 into the equation. Didn't you read the post?
Also that doesn't make sense. The Repressor is all about doing what the Rhino used to do but better. You get to fire your good weapons but in safety. Do...you make this complaint about Rhinos too not supporting Acts Of Faith? This is a bad point and you're really just grasping at straws.
3. The fact you still didn't give me a single good unit for sniping one of the least durable HQ dudes means you concede this point anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

An intercessor should be like a space marine Ogran WS3 BS3 Str5 T5 3W A3 3+ and should have str 5 ap-1 bolters and ap-1 CC attacks for like 25 points. Instead they have shoehorned primaris into this garbage area that is barely tougher than a 1 wound marine at all. Like half the weapons in the game have d3 or flat 2 damage. Instead we pay that price fro the base statline on an agressor with -1s -1w and -1a. Very weak stuff.

Ogrins are 30/35 points (?) and your Hulk Intercessor seems better from a quick glance.

Organs would be pretty bad without their gear giving them tons of autocannon attacks in CC and 1+ save action going on with stratagems. Go ahead and put some geared out bulgrans against my hulk intercessors with stratagems and all available. My marines are going to get wooped.

for 25 points you COMPLETELY destroy Tyranid Warriors for 5 points more. Hell for 20 PPM on a 4+ unit with no access to invulns unlike new 2ppm stormshield marines (really?!) I think it's far too much. Marines can do a bit of everything and all they need are +1 shot to all non heavy bolter Bolt weapons (yes, even pistols) and that's it. 5 points more give you +1 str, toughness, and save. Also much better shooting capability and both are troops. True Tyranid Warriors get synapse and Shadow in the Warp but I'd HAPPILY give it all up for that juicy stat upgrade.

ATSKNF is fine, its an actual *choice* to use, not just a flat "oh I ignore this mechanic so yeah". Tyranids you can remove their fearless (synapse) by the age old motto, kill the big bugs first.

The game needs to reduce morale ignoring effects, or at least have more ways of actively removing it. Tyranid Synapse is a good thing for the most part, Army attributes like Lynden (The wraith heavy army) isn't. I expect some backlash from this comment but I honestly think marine durability is fine, the issue is the cost of units with special weapons. Plasma, melta and similar weapons are far too cheap and knights warp the meta far too much.

1. She was allied into several armies outside Sistersjust for her power alone. Being able to catch anyone you want in melee, coming back after dying, and her bodyguards catching wounds and coming back too, were all over the top. This has been a thing since the edition started. Like, did you forget all this already?

She was when you could combne factions in a detachment - does she still appear in armies?

She was perhaps too good but that was made the Index army playable - and they have taken it all away and given nothing back.

Yeah. Celestine was way too good...

but she was about the only good that existed. Nerfing her is good, but it would've been nice if they actually balanced the army afterwards instead of saying "oh, well, we nerfed celestine! Job well done!" while the entire Adepta Sororitas "Beta Codex" is burning down around them, since Celestine was one of the only things holding them up.

I tried so hard to be hyped and enthusiastic for this codex, but the points drops to Baneblades in chapter approved have me more excited...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


1. Yes Subjective. Just because YOU can't handle her doesn't make her broken, especially in the context of her own army.
2. Because I didn't make it up. If you're using Repressor's speed, you're not getting acts of faith for it, or the warlord buffs. Remember, the only model that can take buffs that actually help a repressor are all foot infantry.
3. Who said on the cheap? I said you had to work for it, not that it was impossible. Please read my comments next time.

1. She was allied into several armies outside Sistersjust for her power alone. Being able to catch anyone you want in melee, coming back after dying, and her bodyguards catching wounds and coming back too, were all over the top. This has been a thing since the edition started. Like, did you forget all this already?
2. I already included T3 into the equation. Didn't you read the post?
Also that doesn't make sense. The Repressor is all about doing what the Rhino used to do but better. You get to fire your good weapons but in safety. Do...you make this complaint about Rhinos too not supporting Acts Of Faith? This is a bad point and you're really just grasping at straws.
3. The fact you still didn't give me a single good unit for sniping one of the least durable HQ dudes means you concede this point anyway.

1. Knights need to be hit too. What's your point?
2. I did calculate it. 3 wounds at t3 is better than the 2 wounds at t4
3. You still didn't provide a capable sniper. That's because there isn't one and anyone afraid of Snipers is a bad player.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Knights need to be hit too. What's your point?
2. I did calculate it. 3 wounds at t3 is better than the 2 wounds at t4
3. You still didn't provide a capable sniper. That's because there isn't one and anyone afraid of Snipers is a bad player.

1. *Whoosh

2. And I calculated it, and found only a minor difference. Which of us am I going to trust?

3. You're not an idiot, you already know what exists for snipers. Remove your head from your posterior.

Sisters have always had trouble in 40k. I don't think anyone would argue that at all.

They won't be viable for a long time.

But reading their rules....

They have on base.... a +3 save and ++6 invulernable. Which objectively makes them a bit more survivable than marines just based on the invulnerable save. And a deny the witch ability on every squad. (Which objectively makes them better than grey knights per a troop choice.)

Sisters are 9pts per while grey knights are 21pts per.... Grey knight strike squad has the exact same amount of attacks, same wounds, except +1 toughness, and +1 strength.... and a force weapon and a stormbolter. (6pts together)

Grey knights have no invulnerable save... thus making them less survivable.

You should actually read the rules for those then. Their DtW is only a d6, unless you take a relic (which I assure you will be in at least 90% of sisters lists), and a 6++ only helps you against AP:-4 or better. Stuff like plasma still gives you an armor save.

Granted the book's buffs help with this, at the cost of greatly slowing the army.

 Mmmpi wrote:
You should actually read the rules for those then. Their DtW is only a d6, unless you take a relic (which I assure you will be in at least 90% of sisters lists), and a 6++ only helps you against AP:-4 or better. Stuff like plasma still gives you an armor save.

Granted the book's buffs help with this, at the cost of greatly slowing the army.

So a +6 invulnerable save on base compared to what? Not having one? The acts of faith seem to boost their viability much more than grey knights as the only character useful from their codex is the dreadknight grandmaster.

Seems incredibly powerful, and this is only their 'beta codex'. Grey knights don't even have the deny the witch ability.

For 9pts per a model, they seem a steal compared to marines. Might give knights a run for their money too.

Brotherhood of Psykers: If your army is Battle-forged, all PSYKERS in Grey Knight Detachments gain this ability. You can add 1 to Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests taken for such a unit. (Grey Knight Codex p96)

And a 6+ that gets used once every 12 games really isn't that useful.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Brotherhood of Psykers: If your army is Battle-forged, all PSYKERS in Grey Knight Detachments gain this ability. You can add 1 to Psychic tests and Deny the Witch tests taken for such a unit. (Grey Knight Codex p96)

And a 6+ that gets used once every 12 games really isn't that useful.

Grey knight strike squads do not have deny the witch abilities..... Read their actual profile. I am looking at it and it says nowhere they can...

A 6++ that can be used alot more often than you give it credit for. There are alot of ap-4 weapons that are put into play.

But what is a grey knight paying for exactly in its profile?

I play sisters regularly. It doesn't come up that often. Outside of Superheavies, you only really see it from Wraithguard weapons, and melta. And most armies don't use meltas.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Grey knights have no invulnerable save... thus making them less survivable.

You greatly overestimate the value of a 6++ save on a power armoured model. You have to be hit by a -4 weapon (-5 if in cover) for it to occur which pretty much means your opponent is shooting at your infantry with meltaguns and volcano cannons.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Grey knights don't even have the deny the witch ability.

This unit can attempt to manifest one psychic power in each friendly Psychic phase, and attempt to deny one psychic power in each enemy Psychic phase.
I can't say i'm particularly up to date with GK faqs, but have they all suddenly become not psychic?

 Mmmpi wrote:
I play sisters regularly. It doesn't come up that often. Outside of Superheavies, you only really see it from Wraithguard weapons, and melta. And most armies don't use meltas.

Or just overcharged plasma which is ap-4

Or most knight weapons are ap-4...

Every model that we test or talk about has to have durability against knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Grey knights have no invulnerable save... thus making them less survivable.

You greatly overestimate the value of a 6++ save on a power armoured model. You have to be hit by a -4 weapon (-5 if in cover) for it to occur which pretty much means your opponent is shooting at your infantry with meltaguns and volcano cannons.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Grey knights don't even have the deny the witch ability.

This unit can attempt to manifest one psychic power in each friendly Psychic phase, and attempt to deny one psychic power in each enemy Psychic phase.
I can't say i'm particularly up to date with GK faqs, but have they all suddenly become not psychic?

I did not see it in their rules! Thats what i am asking? Do they? I've only faced one grey knight player in the last year.

I am saying "++6 is still good, its better than having nothing."

I am not saying it makes them overpowered. I am saying it adds functionally more durability compared to a strike squad which is 21pts per a model and they don't have an invulnerable save.

Knights in general will have sheer weight of fire mixed with their ap-4 weaponry. Not many marines or grey knight players will have multi-wound vehicles, outside of Levithian dreadnoughts for marines, and grand master dreadknights for grey knights. But having access to an invulernable save is still very valuable to any army. Now its not a feel no pain for every single unit but its good for a 9pt model.

Overchaged plasma is S:8 AP: -3 D:2

Knight weapons that are AP: -4 or better
Thermal Spear (melta weapon)
Shield breaker missiles
Melta guns
Volcano Lance
Thermal Cannon (melta weapon)
ThunderStrike Gauntlet
Las Impulsor (high intensity)
Thundercoil harpoon (shoot it at my sisters, please!)

Their reaper chainswords are only AP: -3, and people use the stomp attacks against infantry instead.

That's about a 5th of the knight's arsenal, and most of them suck against infantry.

So, yeah...

 Mmmpi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Knights need to be hit too. What's your point?
2. I did calculate it. 3 wounds at t3 is better than the 2 wounds at t4
3. You still didn't provide a capable sniper. That's because there isn't one and anyone afraid of Snipers is a bad player.

1. *Whoosh

2. And I calculated it, and found only a minor difference. Which of us am I going to trust?

3. You're not an idiot, you already know what exists for snipers. Remove your head from your posterior.

1. You're basically saying Celestine shouldn't be hit because Knights exist.
Both needed to be hit. Difference is only one did.
2. That's still a difference that leads to more offensive power on the Sisters end as they get more shots too. So that's more durable and more shots.
3. No, I don't know about any Snipers because I play Necrons who only have Deathmarks. They're clearly not suited for the job that you claim is easily done, so I'm awaiting you to present some findings for me about all these Sniper units that are easily capable of killing even a Guard Commander. Surely if this were such an easy task you'd have no problem helping me out?

 Mmmpi wrote:
Overchaged plasma is S:8 AP: -3 D:2

Knight weapons that are AP: -4 or better
Thermal Spear (melta weapon)
Shield breaker missiles
Melta guns
Volcano Lance
Thermal Cannon (melta weapon)
ThunderStrike Gauntlet
Las Impulsor (high intensity)
Thundercoil harpoon (shoot it at my sisters, please!)

Their reaper chainswords are only AP: -3, and people use the stomp attacks against infantry instead.

That's about a 5th of the knight's arsenal, and most of them suck against infantry.

So, yeah...

So you're ignoring that soritoas vehicles also have shield of faith?

Which instantly makes their vehicles stronger than the entirety of all the vehicles in the space marine codex?

Please read this :

I am not saying it makes them overpowered. I am saying it adds functionally more durability compared to a strike squad which is 21pts per a model and they don't have an invulnerable save. Space Marines are 13pts per a model and do not have any protection against higher APs.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Overchaged plasma is S:8 AP: -3 D:2

Knight weapons that are AP: -4 or better
Thermal Spear (melta weapon)
Shield breaker missiles
Melta guns
Volcano Lance
Thermal Cannon (melta weapon)
ThunderStrike Gauntlet
Las Impulsor (high intensity)
Thundercoil harpoon (shoot it at my sisters, please!)

Their reaper chainswords are only AP: -3, and people use the stomp attacks against infantry instead.

That's about a 5th of the knight's arsenal, and most of them suck against infantry.

So, yeah...

Overcharged Plasma is AP-4. Hellblasters simply get AP-4 standard.

1. No I'm not.
2. No, They come out the same against one another. Against IG the sisters kill more GI. But the SM are nearly as tough, despite having one less wound.

3. But you claim to be an expert on all things 40K. Why have you suddenly lost all your abilities to complain and compare now? Have your super powers failled you? Are you just a jerk in a mask? Or is Mmmpi your kryptonite?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Which instantly makes their vehicles stronger than the entirety of all the vehicles in the space marine codex?

Incidentally, now that the goalposts have taken off running so far that we're talking about vehicles now, the Adepta Sororitas vehicles are a teeny bit more expensive than their Space Marine equivalents for precisely this reason, actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Overcharged Plasma is AP-4. Hellblasters simply get AP-4 standard.

Overcharged plasma is AP-3. This is objectively wrong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Overchaged plasma is S:8 AP: -3 D:2

Knight weapons that are AP: -4 or better
Thermal Spear (melta weapon)
Shield breaker missiles
Melta guns
Volcano Lance
Thermal Cannon (melta weapon)
ThunderStrike Gauntlet
Las Impulsor (high intensity)
Thundercoil harpoon (shoot it at my sisters, please!)

Their reaper chainswords are only AP: -3, and people use the stomp attacks against infantry instead.

That's about a 5th of the knight's arsenal, and most of them suck against infantry.

So, yeah...

Overcharged Plasma is AP-4. Hellblasters simply get AP-4 standard.

My books all say it's AP: -3 for both plasma settings. And I'm looking in GW published materials. The Hellblasters plasma incinerators are -4 in both settings. Literally every other Plasma weapon is AP -3 (barring IG superheavies I may have forgotten).

 Mmmpi wrote:
1. No I'm not.
2. No, They come out the same against one another. Against IG the sisters kill more GI. But the SM are nearly as tough, despite having one less wound.

3. But you claim to be an expert on all things 40K. Why have you suddenly lost all your abilities to complain and compare now? Have your super powers failled you? Are you just a jerk in a mask? Or is Mmmpi your kryptonite?

1. No, that is what you're saying because you went directly into complaining about Knights.
2. "Nearly as tough" is not the same as "as tough". So more bodies, more shots, more durability all around.
3. I have compared and I'm saying there's no such thing as a good Sniper in 40k. If you think snipers are a threat, it is up to you to present that said sniper.

Since it doesn't exist, I'm still expecting you to dodge the question.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I did not see it in their rules! Thats what i am asking? Do they? I've only faced one grey knight player in the last year.

Well...

 Asherian Command wrote:
Grey knight strike squads do not have deny the witch abilities..... Read their actual profile. I am looking at it and it says nowhere they can...

Which is odd as I copy/pasted that line out of the strike squad entry of my ebook copy - hence asking if it had been FAQed without my noticing since release. Looking over it - seems like just about everything has deny the witch +1, the librarian rolling with deny +2, a stratagem to roll it on 3 dice...