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I don't need to do the exact math, or compare %s, etc. (besides, 1: I've got better things to do, 2: I'm sure one of you have already posted it.)
Because marines have always cost more than guardsmen (and always will). Therefore anything that kills a marine just cost the SM player more pts than it would've the IG player. The % of the change doesn't matter to me - 1 dead marine is still 1 less marine (SW to be exact atm) that I've got on the table.
Of course marines have always cost more points! We're talking about resilience/points ratio. In 7th edition a Tactical Marine costed 14 points, Guardsman costed 5. So marine costed 2,8 times as much as the guardsman. However, bolters were four times more effective at killing guardsmen than marines, thus bolter killed more points of guard than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (14 points) would have killed four guardsmen (20 points.) In 8th marine costs 13 points, guardsman four, so marine costs 3,3 times as much as guardsman (so relatively more than in 7th.) However, due how AP works, bolters now are only 2.7 times as killy against guardsmen than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (13 points) now only kill 2,7 guardsmen (10,5 points.) So point the efficiency of bolters against the guardsmen has almost halved!
That's actually not quite a third in reduced killing power. Using your math as a base. That's exactly the outcome one would expect to have from getting a 5+ armor save against a bolter. If points killed is your only issue, then 5 point guardsmen fix everything. 2.7 x 5 = 13.5. There, marines are fixed.
Except it is not. T4 needs to kinda be better then T3 vs S4 since it gets bumed by S5 and at S8+ it no longer matters
So you're saying marines have to rely on their better armor to ward off damage from anti-personel weapons, and that AT weapons don't care how tough the infantry it's being fired at is. Got it.
Don't forget too, that T4 is more resilient against S6, and 7, both of which are very common.
At this point S5 is looking more like a quirk in the system, rather than an issue with T4.
You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Just b.c SoB players dont play Horde, i do and they are fantastic. 120 bodies on the table are amazing in the index and even more so in the beta codex, I cant turn 1 you with 3 Seraphim and Celestine anymore, but 3++/6+++ is a bit better IMO on 90+ models (including tanks able to have 4++).
I might be doing a tournament with them next week (Im seeing if i cant get them ready in time, i need to redo my list)
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
What people aren't happy about with the beta are the removed options, and the fail that faith was turned into.
The biggest long term issue with sisters is that they lack toughness 4, which makes them more vulnerable to attacks.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
There is quite a bit of debate if what you wrote is true.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
Obviously you’re not a Sisters player.
I am and i think we came out on top for the insane added defense we got, we took some offensive power for defense.
What other army can have 4++/6+++ and for 1 turn 3++/6+++, regening wounds on full army including tanks each turn if wanted too? The power of sisters is going to be able to take damage within worrying about AP of weapons.
Having Melee units with 80+ melee attacks @ S5 -1ap, and cheaper vehicles across the board.
4++ Immolators with a FnP
Yeah AoF are 200% worst, but over all the army is 300% tougher and AoF are now kinda there as a bonus.
We really need to play test it more tho, i do feel the AOF should be a bit easier to get off, or dont limited them attempt once a turn.
Edit: Yeah some models will still not be played with, like P-engines, they still are way to slow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/17 05:33:08
I don't need to do the exact math, or compare %s, etc. (besides, 1: I've got better things to do, 2: I'm sure one of you have already posted it.)
Because marines have always cost more than guardsmen (and always will). Therefore anything that kills a marine just cost the SM player more pts than it would've the IG player. The % of the change doesn't matter to me - 1 dead marine is still 1 less marine (SW to be exact atm) that I've got on the table.
Of course marines have always cost more points! We're talking about resilience/points ratio. In 7th edition a Tactical Marine costed 14 points, Guardsman costed 5. So marine costed 2,8 times as much as the guardsman. However, bolters were four times more effective at killing guardsmen than marines, thus bolter killed more points of guard than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (14 points) would have killed four guardsmen (20 points.) In 8th marine costs 13 points, guardsman four, so marine costs 3,3 times as much as guardsman (so relatively more than in 7th.) However, due how AP works, bolters now are only 2.7 times as killy against guardsmen than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (13 points) now only kill 2,7 guardsmen (10,5 points.) So point the efficiency of bolters against the guardsmen has almost halved!
That's actually not quite a third in reduced killing power. Using your math as a base. That's exactly the outcome one would expect to have from getting a 5+ armor save against a bolter. If points killed is your only issue, then 5 point guardsmen fix everything. 2.7 x 5 = 13.5. There, marines are fixed.
Except it is not. T4 needs to kinda be better then T3 vs S4 since it gets bumed by S5 and at S8+ it no longer matters
So you're saying marines have to rely on their better armor to ward off damage from anti-personel weapons, and that AT weapons don't care how tough the infantry it's being fired at is. Got it.
Don't forget too, that T4 is more resilient against S6, and 7, both of which are very common.
At this point S5 is looking more like a quirk in the system, rather than an issue with T4.
I am saying it is pointless to pay for T4 if it is at most going to make you go even vs the stuff it works vs and your just bleeding points on everything else.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
Obviously you’re not a Sisters player.
I am and i think we came out on top for the insane added defense we got, we took some offensive power for defense.
What other army can have 4++/6+++ and for 1 turn 3++/6+++, regening wounds on full army including tanks each turn if wanted too? The power of sisters is going to be able to take damage within worrying about AP of weapons.
Having Melee units with 80+ melee attacks @ S5 -1ap, and cheaper vehicles across the board.
4++ Immolators with a FnP
Yeah AoF are 200% worst, but over all the army is 300% tougher and AoF are now kinda there as a bonus.
We really need to play test it more tho, i do feel the AOF should be a bit easier to get off, or dont limited them attempt once a turn.
Edit: Yeah some models will still not be played with, like P-engines, they still are way to slow.
Stacking invuln buffs is useful, no doubt. But everything else is either incorrect, or very narrow in scope. The 3++ for example is for one unit, and only once a game. It has to be a unit that can take an imagifer, so not the tanks, or seraphim, or repentia for example. Oh, and you have to decide when the game starts, and it costs command points.
In addition, the 6+++ only affects sororitas infantry.
I don't need to do the exact math, or compare %s, etc. (besides, 1: I've got better things to do, 2: I'm sure one of you have already posted it.)
Because marines have always cost more than guardsmen (and always will). Therefore anything that kills a marine just cost the SM player more pts than it would've the IG player. The % of the change doesn't matter to me - 1 dead marine is still 1 less marine (SW to be exact atm) that I've got on the table.
Of course marines have always cost more points! We're talking about resilience/points ratio. In 7th edition a Tactical Marine costed 14 points, Guardsman costed 5. So marine costed 2,8 times as much as the guardsman. However, bolters were four times more effective at killing guardsmen than marines, thus bolter killed more points of guard than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (14 points) would have killed four guardsmen (20 points.) In 8th marine costs 13 points, guardsman four, so marine costs 3,3 times as much as guardsman (so relatively more than in 7th.) However, due how AP works, bolters now are only 2.7 times as killy against guardsmen than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (13 points) now only kill 2,7 guardsmen (10,5 points.) So point the efficiency of bolters against the guardsmen has almost halved!
That's actually not quite a third in reduced killing power. Using your math as a base. That's exactly the outcome one would expect to have from getting a 5+ armor save against a bolter. If points killed is your only issue, then 5 point guardsmen fix everything. 2.7 x 5 = 13.5. There, marines are fixed.
Except it is not. T4 needs to kinda be better then T3 vs S4 since it gets bumed by S5 and at S8+ it no longer matters
So you're saying marines have to rely on their better armor to ward off damage from anti-personel weapons, and that AT weapons don't care how tough the infantry it's being fired at is. Got it.
Don't forget too, that T4 is more resilient against S6, and 7, both of which are very common.
At this point S5 is looking more like a quirk in the system, rather than an issue with T4.
I am saying it is pointless to pay for T4 if it is at most going to make you go even vs the stuff it works vs and your just bleeding points on everything else.
So your saying marines and guard are both wounded on 3's by hvy. bolters and hvy. flamers, and again by krak missiles, bright lances, and las cannons.
But in the first cases, marines still get a 4+ save, and in the latter cases you have ANTI TANK WEAPONS. Oh, and marines still get a save from those while not in cover.
Against las guns, bolters, shurikens, plasma, chainswords (most of the time), plasma, scatter lasers, and morters, that T4 give you an advantage. Ask ork players (who get a 6+ save) if their T4 is a waste of points.
So no, your not wasting your points for T4.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/17 06:05:06
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
You should try playing both setups before you judge. Sisters are quite a lot weaker with the Beta Codex than they were in the index. Between the new Acts of Faith being terrible and the Celestine nerfs, Sisters of Battle have very little to offer. Our strength as an index was heavily propped up on being able to use 24" move Celestine and 24" move Seraphim to cheese other lists by either locking up powerful shooting units first turn or picking off valuable support characters(i.e. Standard of the Emperor Ascendent) and following up with alphastriking Dominions. Now that we actually have to go mano y mano with other armies, we don't really have the tools to compete anymore.
You could try running 120+ model blobs but you'll lose to any army that can quickly lock you into combat, can snipe your 5 wound Canoness, can out maneuver your incredibly slow infantry blob, or can simply outshoot your frankly pathetic offensive output.
None of this has anything to do with SoB being 9ppm, however. It has more to do with the beta codex being terrible.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
Obviously you’re not a Sisters player.
I am and i think we came out on top for the insane added defense we got, we took some offensive power for defense.
What other army can have 4++/6+++ and for 1 turn 3++/6+++, regening wounds on full army including tanks each turn if wanted too? The power of sisters is going to be able to take damage within worrying about AP of weapons.
Having Melee units with 80+ melee attacks @ S5 -1ap, and cheaper vehicles across the board.
4++ Immolators with a FnP
Yeah AoF are 200% worst, but over all the army is 300% tougher and AoF are now kinda there as a bonus.
We really need to play test it more tho, i do feel the AOF should be a bit easier to get off, or dont limited them attempt once a turn.
Edit: Yeah some models will still not be played with, like P-engines, they still are way to slow.
Stacking invuln buffs is useful, no doubt. But everything else is either incorrect, or very narrow in scope. The 3++ for example is for one unit, and only once a game. It has to be a unit that can take an imagifer, so not the tanks, or seraphim, or repentia for example. Oh, and you have to decide when the game starts, and it costs command points.
In addition, the 6+++ only affects sororitas infantry.
I don't need to do the exact math, or compare %s, etc. (besides, 1: I've got better things to do, 2: I'm sure one of you have already posted it.)
Because marines have always cost more than guardsmen (and always will). Therefore anything that kills a marine just cost the SM player more pts than it would've the IG player. The % of the change doesn't matter to me - 1 dead marine is still 1 less marine (SW to be exact atm) that I've got on the table.
Of course marines have always cost more points! We're talking about resilience/points ratio. In 7th edition a Tactical Marine costed 14 points, Guardsman costed 5. So marine costed 2,8 times as much as the guardsman. However, bolters were four times more effective at killing guardsmen than marines, thus bolter killed more points of guard than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (14 points) would have killed four guardsmen (20 points.) In 8th marine costs 13 points, guardsman four, so marine costs 3,3 times as much as guardsman (so relatively more than in 7th.) However, due how AP works, bolters now are only 2.7 times as killy against guardsmen than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (13 points) now only kill 2,7 guardsmen (10,5 points.) So point the efficiency of bolters against the guardsmen has almost halved!
That's actually not quite a third in reduced killing power. Using your math as a base. That's exactly the outcome one would expect to have from getting a 5+ armor save against a bolter. If points killed is your only issue, then 5 point guardsmen fix everything. 2.7 x 5 = 13.5. There, marines are fixed.
Except it is not. T4 needs to kinda be better then T3 vs S4 since it gets bumed by S5 and at S8+ it no longer matters
So you're saying marines have to rely on their better armor to ward off damage from anti-personel weapons, and that AT weapons don't care how tough the infantry it's being fired at is. Got it.
Don't forget too, that T4 is more resilient against S6, and 7, both of which are very common.
At this point S5 is looking more like a quirk in the system, rather than an issue with T4.
I am saying it is pointless to pay for T4 if it is at most going to make you go even vs the stuff it works vs and your just bleeding points on everything else.
So your saying marines and guard are both wounded on 3's by hvy. bolters and hvy. flamers, and again by krak missiles, bright lances, and las cannons.
But in the first cases, marines still get a 4+ save, and in the latter cases you have ANTI TANK WEAPONS. Oh, and marines still get a save from those while not in cover.
Against las guns, bolters, shurikens, plasma, chainswords (most of the time), plasma, scatter lasers, and morters, that T4 give you an advantage. Ask ork players (who get a 6+ save) if their T4 is a waste of points.
So no, your not wasting your points for T4.
Small correction, Seraphim start at 5++ so they go up to 3++ with both Celestine and the warlord trait.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
Obviously you’re not a Sisters player.
I am and i think we came out on top for the insane added defense we got, we took some offensive power for defense.
What other army can have 4++/6+++ and for 1 turn 3++/6+++, regening wounds on full army including tanks each turn if wanted too? The power of sisters is going to be able to take damage within worrying about AP of weapons.
Having Melee units with 80+ melee attacks @ S5 -1ap, and cheaper vehicles across the board.
4++ Immolators with a FnP
Yeah AoF are 200% worst, but over all the army is 300% tougher and AoF are now kinda there as a bonus.
We really need to play test it more tho, i do feel the AOF should be a bit easier to get off, or dont limited them attempt once a turn.
Edit: Yeah some models will still not be played with, like P-engines, they still are way to slow.
You’re giving people a wayyy skewed idea of Sisters strengths...
Our vehicles got 5-10 points cheaper, so did a lot of other armies vehicles and ours were already overpriced;
Where are you getting that we can have 4++ invuln saves across the army and how are we regening vehicles?;
I wouldn’t call a 6 fnp “not having to worry about the AP of weapons”;
If you think 80 melee attacks at Str5 AP -1 is impreasive you’ve obviously never played a mass horde Ork army that can lay down several hundred even stronger attacks;
I wanna believe in Sisters but they’ve been gimped hard - I could take Celestine and 30 Seraphims 24+ inches turn one and crush an opponent- I cant even move them 15” now if I’m lucky. I could shoot Rets twice per turn, now I get a +1 to hit IF I’M LUCKY. You wanna slog 6” moving Sisters across an open field to go into close combat with an opponent? Our AoFs ARE our gimmicks- how do you compete when every other Codex out there has gimmicks and ours don’t even work?
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
Obviously you’re not a Sisters player.
I am and i think we came out on top for the insane added defense we got, we took some offensive power for defense.
What other army can have 4++/6+++ and for 1 turn 3++/6+++, regening wounds on full army including tanks each turn if wanted too? The power of sisters is going to be able to take damage within worrying about AP of weapons.
Having Melee units with 80+ melee attacks @ S5 -1ap, and cheaper vehicles across the board.
4++ Immolators with a FnP
Yeah AoF are 200% worst, but over all the army is 300% tougher and AoF are now kinda there as a bonus.
We really need to play test it more tho, i do feel the AOF should be a bit easier to get off, or dont limited them attempt once a turn.
Edit: Yeah some models will still not be played with, like P-engines, they still are way to slow.
Stacking invuln buffs is useful, no doubt. But everything else is either incorrect, or very narrow in scope. The 3++ for example is for one unit, and only once a game. It has to be a unit that can take an imagifer, so not the tanks, or seraphim, or repentia for example. Oh, and you have to decide when the game starts, and it costs command points.
In addition, the 6+++ only affects sororitas infantry.
I don't need to do the exact math, or compare %s, etc. (besides, 1: I've got better things to do, 2: I'm sure one of you have already posted it.) Because marines have always cost more than guardsmen (and always will). Therefore anything that kills a marine just cost the SM player more pts than it would've the IG player. The % of the change doesn't matter to me - 1 dead marine is still 1 less marine (SW to be exact atm) that I've got on the table.
Of course marines have always cost more points! We're talking about resilience/points ratio. In 7th edition a Tactical Marine costed 14 points, Guardsman costed 5. So marine costed 2,8 times as much as the guardsman. However, bolters were four times more effective at killing guardsmen than marines, thus bolter killed more points of guard than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (14 points) would have killed four guardsmen (20 points.) In 8th marine costs 13 points, guardsman four, so marine costs 3,3 times as much as guardsman (so relatively more than in 7th.) However, due how AP works, bolters now are only 2.7 times as killy against guardsmen than marines. Bolter shots required to kill one marine (13 points) now only kill 2,7 guardsmen (10,5 points.) So point the efficiency of bolters against the guardsmen has almost halved!
That's actually not quite a third in reduced killing power. Using your math as a base. That's exactly the outcome one would expect to have from getting a 5+ armor save against a bolter. If points killed is your only issue, then 5 point guardsmen fix everything. 2.7 x 5 = 13.5. There, marines are fixed.
Except it is not. T4 needs to kinda be better then T3 vs S4 since it gets bumed by S5 and at S8+ it no longer matters
So you're saying marines have to rely on their better armor to ward off damage from anti-personel weapons, and that AT weapons don't care how tough the infantry it's being fired at is. Got it. Don't forget too, that T4 is more resilient against S6, and 7, both of which are very common.
At this point S5 is looking more like a quirk in the system, rather than an issue with T4.
I am saying it is pointless to pay for T4 if it is at most going to make you go even vs the stuff it works vs and your just bleeding points on everything else.
So your saying marines and guard are both wounded on 3's by hvy. bolters and hvy. flamers, and again by krak missiles, bright lances, and las cannons. But in the first cases, marines still get a 4+ save, and in the latter cases you have ANTI TANK WEAPONS. Oh, and marines still get a save from those while not in cover. Against las guns, bolters, shurikens, plasma, chainswords (most of the time), plasma, scatter lasers, and morters, that T4 give you an advantage. Ask ork players (who get a 6+ save) if their T4 is a waste of points. So no, your not wasting your points for T4.
Um.. You can get a 5++ SoF with a WL trait, give it the Relic for +3" aura and now you have a 9" 5++ aura for all SoF, Celestine makes it a 4++, then your Seraphim are now always a 3++, you can then use a strat for once a game. Its a army wide 4++ if you stay within range. If you are starting in vehicles that is easy to do, with Seraphim as well.
And the 6+++ effects infantry is correct, i forgot about it already (its a lot of new rules to remember lol).
Edit: ADD: And the "Not worry about AP' for for the vehicles and Seraphim +1 unit for a turn, when your vehicles are 3+/4++ yeah you dont need to worry about AP, -1 will still work, but -2, -3, -4? Nah, you dont care. And Seraphim will not care at all for at least starting turn up till turn 2. Seraphim with a 3++/6+++, who is going to be shooting them honestly? If they want to waste the shots, be my guess, my Doms will be safe for SB strat.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/17 06:20:26
So you have to have a Canoness as your warlord, moving 6” - and keep the whole army moving 6” a turn to stay in that bubble? Very unrealistic way to play.
Eldar and several other armies will run circles around you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/17 06:23:02
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
Obviously you’re not a Sisters player.
I am and i think we came out on top for the insane added defense we got, we took some offensive power for defense.
What other army can have 4++/6+++ and for 1 turn 3++/6+++, regening wounds on full army including tanks each turn if wanted too? The power of sisters is going to be able to take damage within worrying about AP of weapons.
Having Melee units with 80+ melee attacks @ S5 -1ap, and cheaper vehicles across the board.
4++ Immolators with a FnP
Yeah AoF are 200% worst, but over all the army is 300% tougher and AoF are now kinda there as a bonus.
We really need to play test it more tho, i do feel the AOF should be a bit easier to get off, or dont limited them attempt once a turn.
Edit: Yeah some models will still not be played with, like P-engines, they still are way to slow.
SPACE MARINES. Space marines can do 3+/4++(the 6+++ is largely irrelevant) and they do it better, because they have actual offense they can use, whereas SoB are just slinging bolters downfield. They can also get tech marines that can heal their tanks without have to keep them all within 6" of a single character and blowing 3CP per turn.
We also didn't get much in the way of defense. The 4++ means gak all for T3 infantry that was dying to bolters, heavy bolters, and assault cannons before anyway. We've never really cared about high AP weaponry because it's always been overkill. Using plasma to kill a battle sister is only 2ppm more efficient than using it to kill an ork boy. Just use an assault cannon or aggressors or plague spitters. Even getting our two and a half tanks to 4++ only really happens on the first turn and forces you to give up your Dominion's scout move. It isn't even great on Exorcists because Exorcists are too unreliable to actually use, they can still just be locked up in combat, and because 4++ won't stop people from actually nuking your tanks. Immolators with a 4++ are okay for a first turn anti-alphastrike bunker but after that...you can't really do anything with them. You gave up their scout move to keep the 4++ so now it takes 2 turns to get them where they want to go. We're a little bit sturdier on defense at the cost of MOST of our offense and ALL of our mobility. ADDITIONAL THING: We're not going from no invul in these situations to a 4++ either. We've always been able to get the army up to a 5++ with Celestine. It's not even that big of a jump.
Those are Arco Flaggellents and they're t3 with a 5++ invul. They're also not actual Sisters of battle models and still aren't great because there's no delivery system for them other than cramming incredibly fragile bodies in incredibly fragile rhinos that have a choice between either crawling up the board with the 4++ blob or hoping that your opponent doesn't kill too many when the thing blows up. The Arcos don't even get the bonuses to invuls. Vehicles outside of the Exorcist AREN'T cheaper, the weapons the vehicle CARRY are cheaper because EVERYONE'S heavy flamers and meltas went down in price.
Sisters of Battle are expected, under the Beta Codex, to go toe to toe with every other army in 40k in a straight up slugfest despite not having, and never having, the tools to win the game that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: So you have to have a Canoness as your warlord, moving 6” - and keep the whole army moving 6” a turn to stay in that bubble? Very unrealistic way to play.
Eldar and several other armies will run circles around you.
Not to mention armies like Orkz that will just lock the whole blob in CQC for the rest of the game. Once your OoBR bonus is up, your sisters are swinging 1 attack each hitting on 4s wounding on 5s. You could try hiding some repentia or Arcos in there but they'd just slugga/shoota them off before the charge.
Also, one more thing: The canonesses aura can get up to 9", Celestine's aura is always going to be 6, same with Vessels of the Emperor's Will. There's no point in taking that relic in a blob list.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/17 06:42:30
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Just b.c SoB players dont play Horde, i do and they are fantastic. 120 bodies on the table are amazing in the index and even more so in the beta codex, I cant turn 1 you with 3 Seraphim and Celestine anymore, but 3++/6+++ is a bit better IMO on 90+ models (including tanks able to have 4++).
I might be doing a tournament with them next week (Im seeing if i cant get them ready in time, i need to redo my list)
Power Armour in 8th is a terrible defensive ability - T3 in Power Armour is even worse.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
You should try playing both setups before you judge. Sisters are quite a lot weaker with the Beta Codex than they were in the index. Between the new Acts of Faith being terrible and the Celestine nerfs, Sisters of Battle have very little to offer. Our strength as an index was heavily propped up on being able to use 24" move Celestine and 24" move Seraphim to cheese other lists by either locking up powerful shooting units first turn or picking off valuable support characters(i.e. Standard of the Emperor Ascendent) and following up with alphastriking Dominions. Now that we actually have to go mano y mano with other armies, we don't really have the tools to compete anymore.
You could try running 120+ model blobs but you'll lose to any army that can quickly lock you into combat, can snipe your 5 wound Canoness, can out maneuver your incredibly slow infantry blob, or can simply outshoot your frankly pathetic offensive output.
None of this has anything to do with SoB being 9ppm, however. It has more to do with the beta codex being terrible.
Celestine needed to be hit anyway, so nice try saying that was such a nerf.
Also saying you were only reliant on that singular strategy is silly. Like, do you actually PLAY Sisters? You have one of the single best transports in the game (Repressors), speed all over the map, and cheap units.
Also "sniping" characters is laughable. You can't even snipe Guard Commanders and they're WAY less durable!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Celestine needed to be hit anyway, so nice try saying that was such a nerf.
Also saying you were only reliant on that singular strategy is silly. Like, do you actually PLAY Sisters? You have one of the single best transports in the game (Repressors), speed all over the map, and cheap units.
Also "sniping" characters is laughable. You can't even snipe Guard Commanders and they're WAY less durable!
1. Subjective.
2. At the competative level, yes that was it. In more casual environments you can get away with more, though it's still an uphill battle. As for those repressors, sure they're good. But to use them as you describe now requires you to give up all of the beta advantages.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Outside the Acts of Faith, it's pretty strong. They were already a strong Index list, and with their main Anti-Tank from Melta coming down in cost and the three Orders that aren't terrible, they definitely came out better than before.
You should try playing both setups before you judge. Sisters are quite a lot weaker with the Beta Codex than they were in the index. Between the new Acts of Faith being terrible and the Celestine nerfs, Sisters of Battle have very little to offer. Our strength as an index was heavily propped up on being able to use 24" move Celestine and 24" move Seraphim to cheese other lists by either locking up powerful shooting units first turn or picking off valuable support characters(i.e. Standard of the Emperor Ascendent) and following up with alphastriking Dominions. Now that we actually have to go mano y mano with other armies, we don't really have the tools to compete anymore.
You could try running 120+ model blobs but you'll lose to any army that can quickly lock you into combat, can snipe your 5 wound Canoness, can out maneuver your incredibly slow infantry blob, or can simply outshoot your frankly pathetic offensive output.
None of this has anything to do with SoB being 9ppm, however. It has more to do with the beta codex being terrible.
Celestine needed to be hit anyway, so nice try saying that was such a nerf.
Also saying you were only reliant on that singular strategy is silly. Like, do you actually PLAY Sisters? You have one of the single best transports in the game (Repressors), speed all over the map, and cheap units.
Also "sniping" characters is laughable. You can't even snipe Guard Commanders and they're WAY less durable!
Do you play Sisters???
I’ve been playing Sisters since 1995 and they’re total garbage with this beta garbage.
Yes, Sisters players were pretty much reliant on 3 things to stay playable: Celestine and Seraphim double movement and Forge Worlds’ Repressor. So now we have Repressors (at at 112 points apiece and negligible offensive output).
Pray tell, where’s our winning strategy? I’d like to know.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In competitive play Sisters were coming in around middle of the pack, now you’ll see Sisters lists coming up in the bottom 10% guaranteed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/17 07:02:22
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, I just realised we have the perfect example of a "cheaper" marine. And it hardly solves anything. Sisters of battle have troops in power armor which are just 9 points a pop. But their beta codex came out and nobody on their thread seems to be happy. So, even at a price point of 9 points a model, a troop model in power armor doesn't seem to solve anything.
Just b.c SoB players dont play Horde, i do and they are fantastic. 120 bodies on the table are amazing in the index and even more so in the beta codex, I cant turn 1 you with 3 Seraphim and Celestine anymore, but 3++/6+++ is a bit better IMO on 90+ models (including tanks able to have 4++).
I might be doing a tournament with them next week (Im seeing if i cant get them ready in time, i need to redo my list)
Power Armour in 8th is a terrible defensive ability - T3 in Power Armour is even worse.
Well your right it is not ideal they save 4 points a head not getting the garbage CC stats and 1 point of T. In a unit to unit comparison sisters are better then marines.
It actually is if the model isn't overpointed. Think about the current example of Sisters vs Marines. You basically compare, with 3 sisters being 27 and 2 Marines being 26...
1. 3 T3 wounds to 2 T4 wounds
2. Which is 3 3+ compared to 2 3+
3. 3 BS3+ Bolter shots instead of 2 BS3+ Bolter shots
4. 3 S3 attacks that hit on a 4+ to 2 S4 attacks that hit on a 3+
The melee is basically even (and both suck in melee anyway) but the durability and damage output is just better with the Sisters. Them being cheaper also means more easily fit in Special Weapons too. Who cares if they have limited access if they fit in everything easier?
Celestine needed to be hit anyway, so nice try saying that was such a nerf.
Also saying you were only reliant on that singular strategy is silly. Like, do you actually PLAY Sisters? You have one of the single best transports in the game (Repressors), speed all over the map, and cheap units.
Also "sniping" characters is laughable. You can't even snipe Guard Commanders and they're WAY less durable!
1. Subjective.
2. At the competative level, yes that was it. In more casual environments you can get away with more, though it's still an uphill battle. As for those repressors, sure they're good. But to use them as you describe now requires you to give up all of the beta advantages.
3. Yes difficult, but not impossible.
1. Not subjective. Celestine needed to be hit.
2. No you don't give up anything using Repressors. I don't even know why you'd make that up.
3. Please tell me what can kill even a Guard Commander on the cheap that's a Sniper. I await your findings.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/17 08:37:02
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
It actually is if the model isn't overpointed. Think about the current example of Sisters vs Marines. You basically compare, with 3 sisters being 27 and 2 Marines being 26...
1. 3 T3 wounds to 2 T4 wounds
2. Which is 3 3+ compared to 2 3+
3. 3 BS3+ Bolter shots instead of 2 BS3+ Bolter shots
4. 3 S3 attacks that hit on a 4+ to 2 S4 attacks that hit on a 3+
The melee is basically even (and both suck in melee anyway) but the durability and damage output is just better with the Sisters. Them being cheaper also means more easily fit in Special Weapons too. Who cares if they have limited access if they fit in everything easier?
Now include T4 vs T3 into your equation. So the sisters hit 2/3 (2) and wound 1. Space marines hit .67/2 (1.34) (.89) Seems rather close to even.
Celestine needed to be hit anyway, so nice try saying that was such a nerf.
Also saying you were only reliant on that singular strategy is silly. Like, do you actually PLAY Sisters? You have one of the single best transports in the game (Repressors), speed all over the map, and cheap units.
Also "sniping" characters is laughable. You can't even snipe Guard Commanders and they're WAY less durable!
1. Subjective.
2. At the competative level, yes that was it. In more casual environments you can get away with more, though it's still an uphill battle. As for those repressors, sure they're good. But to use them as you describe now requires you to give up all of the beta advantages.
3. Yes difficult, but not impossible.
1. Not subjective. Celestine needed to be hit.
2. No you don't give up anything using Repressors. I don't even know why you'd make that up.
3. Please tell me what can kill even a Guard Commander on the cheap that's a Sniper. I await your findings.
1. Yes Subjective. Just because YOU can't handle her doesn't make her broken, especially in the context of her own army.
2. Because I didn't make it up. If you're using Repressor's speed, you're not getting acts of faith for it, or the warlord buffs. Remember, the only model that can take buffs that actually help a repressor are all foot infantry.
3. Who said on the cheap? I said you had to work for it, not that it was impossible. Please read my comments next time.
I completely agree with Slayer-Fan123 on this matter.
Celestine was clearly overpowered, repressors are still auto-takes and among the best vehicles in 40k unless I missed some new nerf about them, and snipers are not a thing in competitive gaming.
I haven't seen the new sisters' rules though so I actually don't know how they are now.
Well people at my store refused to play the SoB player, because he was running her and 30 seraphin and locking down armies in melee. No one liked it, so they stoped playing her. But that is just my store.
Now include T4 vs T3 into your equation. So the sisters hit 2/3 (2) and wound 1. Space marines hit .67/2 (1.34) (.89) Seems rather close to even.
But if sobs are cheaper, then at some point you reach 1500 or 2000pts, and sob have an army build while marines end up with 8-9man sized squads, because they cost more points.
Our AoFs ARE our gimmicks- how do you compete when every other Codex out there has gimmicks and ours don’t even work?
Play a lot vs GK whose gimmik does not work either
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
So...any reason why those guys didn't kill said seraphim in melee? They're not that tough.
Yup on the army size, until you factor in availible support and options. The killing power for a marine squad is actually higher than for sisters, and marines can bully them in melee, most of the time.
Yeah, army rules not working is a problem for a few armies, doesn't mean that they shouldn't be fixed.
Karol wrote: Well people at my store refused to play the SoB player, because he was running her and 30 seraphin and locking down armies in melee. No one liked it, so they stoped playing her. But that is just my store.
Wait, your store where everyone is an ultracompetitive git who refuse to tone down their lists for your Grey Knights? What a bunch of hypocritical wussies!
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
5300 | 
2800 | 
3600 | 
1600 | 
