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Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Sterling191 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:

wait, surely it's one CT for the whole army per Battle Round, not pick a different one for each unit. That would be a nightmare to handle since you cannot use the same one twice. It's my understanding that at the beginning of the BR you indicate that you are using say Raven Guard CT, and all units with the eligible keyword get to use that CT that battle round, plus the DW one if you took the WT and are within 6" of warlord.


Re-read the wording, it activates on a per unit basis. Doctrines and similar effects explicitly state they are active for your army, with a knock-on effect stating which affects the subparts have. VotLV explicitly functions in whole for this unit.

There is no stipulation in the VotLV ability that it can only activate once per battle round for your army, and since every unit gains the standalone ability it triggers for each individual unit at the beginning of each battle round.


This is a logistical nightmare since each unit can only use a chapter tactic once in a game (unless using the strat). Not only will you probably need markers for each unit (with the right symbol for each chapter...easy enough), but also keep track of which units have used which tactic already in previous turns so they don't repeat them.

I do wonder if this is the intent but it certainly seems super flexible.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 bullyboy wrote:

This is a logistical nightmare since each unit can only use a chapter tactic once in a game (unless using the strat). Not only will you probably need markers for each unit (with the right symbol for each chapter...easy enough), but also keep track of which units have used which tactic already in previous turns so they don't repeat them.

I do wonder if this is the intent but it certainly seems super flexible.


It absolutely needs an FAQ to clarify intent.

Got another (entirely semi-casual) rep in last night against mixed Slaanesh Demons and Thousand Sons (it was two folks piloting 1000 points apiece but they teamed up on list building). I backlined to range out the TSons and make it harder for the ladies to get the T1 charge off, which was fortunate as I lost first turn. The ladies came out to play, but couldn't quite get across no man's land. The first turn psychic wave bounced off the BT 5+++, and he failed the 11 and 12 inch charges. Couple of terminator missiles largely plinked off shields and the Aegis. I misplayed the Extremis strat on a long shot to try and whittle down a Scarab team. It did not go well.

Turn 1 counterpunch was brutal. Two smaller blobs of daemonettes, all but one of his Fiends and his Keeper went down in shooting, and a Blackshield flattened the Epitome.

Turn 2 the dusty bois came out to play, and I dropped the Proteus team they were poised to overrun into Iron Hands for the FnP (I was trying not to min-max the list so no Apoth or Librarian for shrugs). Terminator Sorcerer yoinked their invuln, but between sheer wound count and the joys of massed 2+ armor saves I only lost a few Vets from the team in both shooting and fighting. Importantly the 30-lady blob failed its charge out of reserves, which pretty much won me the game.

Counterpunch was just as brutal Turn 2. Beacon brought my Indomitor squad to the thick of things, and it just liquified the 30-gal blob and a 5-man Scarab squad. The Spectrus team that had halved the Keeper swung around and popped a Sorcerer and an Infernal Master (WLT to make the squad untargetable is just ace by the way), and from there it was cleanup.

Takeaways:

BT shrugs pretty much won me the game. Having not only an ace to make the countercharge reliable, but also the psychic defense (I took no Libbys or Inquisitors) payed huge dividends. Likewise IF as a force multiplier for SIA is hellaciously potent when you throw enough dice on the table, and can rack up the damage very quickly even against multiwound models (I had a 5-man Stalker Boltgun team nearly delete a Scarab team in a single volley. AP3 D3 is no joke).

Having nearly on-demand offensive and defensive tools is a huge asset. It's tricksy to use for sure, but if you do it right it'll swing an entire match.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




What are people's thoughts on a Proteus brick with 3x Cyclone Missile Termies and 4x normal missile launchers? It melee's and shoots equally well, and is Str 8 to go into Orks. Would the Cyclones by themselves be enough?

Librarian can throw the Mantle of Shadow on it to keep it from being sniped, and it would benefit nicely from the Chaplain's +1 to hit and +1 wound/closest.

Mine is 417 points with the Aquila upgrade, vanguard vet for fallback-shoot, and a Thunderhammer/Stormshield termie to soak damage. Is this too many points?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





xerxeskingofking wrote:
So, I've bit the bullet and got my 1st deathwatch models, specifically a watch master and some heavy intercessors. Which armament option do you guys think is best for them? I plan to leave the on the rear objective, and I'm torn between the extra damage and AP on the executor types, the higher shots one the hellstorm, and the mix of the standard heavy rifles.


My primary opponents will be wolves, grey knights and necrons, If that matters.


Hellstorm for normal and Executor for Heavy. Cutely we can mix and match where the normal unit has to stick to one type.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/27 16:33:40


 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




UK

Sterling191 wrote:
(WLT to make the squad untargetable is just ace by the way).

Does honoured veteran of the watch give any guidance on whether the sergeant or the unit is considered the warlord for the purposes of the trait? I thought it was just the sergeant so stealth adept wouldnt kick in until the rest of the kill team is dead (as you shoot the unit not the warlord, similar to how iron resolve surely doesnt give +1 wound and a shrug to each team member).

Also, with VotLV, I read it as working both ways - i.e. it is applied at unit level, but you cannot select a CT more than once (so can only blood angel 1 unit, army wide, cannot do so again for remainder of game). Probably in need of a few FAQs I guess.

Finally, does anyone have an opinion on what is best for the auto wound strat - quantity of shots or high ap+damage? Indomitor team with max bolt storm aggressors and imperial fists is putting forward a strong case for quantity over quality but theres probably a weird blend of mid strength-high damage weaponry that would benefit more.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insularum wrote:

Does honoured veteran of the watch give any guidance on whether the sergeant or the unit is considered the warlord for the purposes of the trait? I thought it was just the sergeant so stealth adept wouldnt kick in until the rest of the kill team is dead (as you shoot the unit not the warlord, similar to how iron resolve surely doesnt give +1 wound and a shrug to each team member).


It 100% needs an FAQ, but my understanding of the order of operations in the shooting phase is that you select a *unit* to target, not a model, which would include the Sergeant and therefore activate the trait.

 Insularum wrote:

Also, with VotLV, I read it as working both ways - i.e. it is applied at unit level, but you cannot select a CT more than once (so can only blood angel 1 unit, army wide, cannot do so again for remainder of game). Probably in need of a few FAQs I guess.


This is an entirely plausible interpretation of the wording, and I completely agree that it critically needs an FAQ to clarify.

 Insularum wrote:

Finally, does anyone have an opinion on what is best for the auto wound strat - quantity of shots or high ap+damage? Indomitor team with max bolt storm aggressors and imperial fists is putting forward a strong case for quantity over quality but theres probably a weird blend of mid strength-high damage weaponry that would benefit more.


They both have merits, and one of the big struggles right now is saving the CP to drop it in sequential turns.
   
Made in au
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




bmsattler wrote:
What are people's thoughts on a Proteus brick with 3x Cyclone Missile Termies and 4x normal missile launchers? It melee's and shoots equally well, and is Str 8 to go into Orks. Would the Cyclones by themselves be enough?

Librarian can throw the Mantle of Shadow on it to keep it from being sniped, and it would benefit nicely from the Chaplain's +1 to hit and +1 wound/closest.

Mine is 417 points with the Aquila upgrade, vanguard vet for fallback-shoot, and a Thunderhammer/Stormshield termie to soak damage. Is this too many points?


I'm trialling something similar, but went for more diverse/survive/mid options. I have made a DW battalion normal and a Patrol of 'Strike force' to test some of them (no way keeping track of all that in a full 'Strike force' etc... and I think can take a detachment of 'Strike force' and a Detachment of normal DW):

For my army this squad teleports in with captain support (re-roll 1's) or it has the option to combat squad with vets in one squad (deploy normally) and Vanguard/termies in the other (so they can tele for free if want/need).

(420) Strike Force Aquila Proteus Kill Team, 10 men: --Teleportarium Stratagem--
• Aquila Specialism
• Watch Sergeant: DW Combi-plasma, Power fist, Combat shield, Frag & Krak grenades
• 4x Veterans: 4x DW Combi-plasmas, 4x Storm shields, Frag & Krak grenades
• 2x Vanguard Vets: 2x Plasma pistols, 2x Storm shields, 2x Jump packs, Frag & Krak grenades
• 3x Deathwatch Terminators: 3x Storm bolters, 3x Cyclone missile launchers, 3x Power swords

Mainly trailing the auto wound stratagem for a mega punch when come down (can only use it once so). With the rest of my army the combo is ok (so long as can run a norm DW battalion and a 'Strike force' patrol?). But is super expensive and depends on if can deep strike at a good position, because of enemy screen out etc (that's why gave them the option of combat squad etc so have options after see enemy, if decide not to use strat, can combat squad and focus on other rules etc). I also have a jump Chap for +1 to hit if decide can commit so much to deep strike...

I think such an expensive squad has to be able to do multiple roles and not sit in the back, is why chose weapon options and why mainly went for the deep strike over sit back and shoot. Has the option, if no full squad deep strike, to go for combat squad and gives even more options (still expensive but options are good. How many times can I say options in a paragraph...lol).

Anyway from what I found (for this build and my complete army I am trialling atm) I think works ok and is a fun change. Competitive... to many eggs one basket, maybe.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 11:52:58


14k Generic Space Marine Chapters
20k Deathwatch
10k Sisters of Battle
3k Inquisition
4k Grey Knights
5k Imperial Guard
4k Harlequins
4k Tau



 
   
Made in au
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




xerxeskingofking wrote:
So, I've bit the bullet and got my 1st deathwatch models, specifically a watch master and some heavy intercessors. Which armament option do you guys think is best for them? I plan to leave the on the rear objective, and I'm torn between the extra damage and AP on the executor types, the higher shots one the hellstorm, and the mix of the standard heavy rifles.


My primary opponents will be wolves, grey knights and necrons, If that matters.


I think Heavy intercessors are pretty trash tbh, the only reason to take them is if want to combat squad eradicators/inceptors to make Obsec.
That being said, I have some of mine done up with Executor bolt rifles (I think the extra ap and damage are worth it and if combat squad say with eradicators (and mix them) they have a chance to do some damage if fire entire unit at one squad/vehicle and are there just to take hits, even if heavy. Moreover, if combat squad totally separate (like all Heavy Intercessors and all Inceptors etc), the HI Executors can sit back and do something from range if need, while say the Inceptors are free to do what you want them to do with Obsec).

For Wolves and Grey knights and if sitting back on objects than the Executors will defiantly be better (at least have the range and each hit has more of a chance to kill most times).
This also gives you a better option I think if expand into other units (like eradicators or inceptors). I would not do multiple different weapon options atm, even though DW have the option (cause makes it so long when dice roll and you are still testing).

Suggestions for other backfield units:

For back field objectives (if just holding or ROD etc) servitors are a good choice. If want a unit to hold and can take some hits (pop off a few shots etc) that are primaris, I have found this squad ok if want to hold 2 back quarters/objectives:

(255/18) Spectrus Kill Team (A), 10 men: ---Combat Squad---
• ---A1---
• Infiltrator Sergeant: Marksman bolt carbine, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades
• 2x Infiltrators: 2x Marksman bolt carbines, 2x Bolt pistols, Frag & Krak grenades
• 2x Eliminator: 2x Bolt sniper rifles, 2x Bolt pistols, 2x Camo cloaks, Frag & Krak grenades
• ---A2---
• Infiltrator: Marksman bolt carbine, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades
• Infiltrator: Marksman bolt carbine, Bolt pistol, Helix gauntlet, Frag & Krak grenades
• 3x Eliminators: 3x Bolt sniper rifles, 3x Bolt pistols, 3x Camo cloaks, Frag & Krak grenades

Each unit can screen out deep strikers to 12", if is in cover or can chain back to cover with the Eliminators is a 1+ save and in one squad can ignore first failed armour save per turn.

I'm not a huge fan of primaris for DW. Most that primaris can do Vets or mixed Proteus kill teams can do similar or better and be more survivable for similar points.

This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2021/10/31 03:10:55


14k Generic Space Marine Chapters
20k Deathwatch
10k Sisters of Battle
3k Inquisition
4k Grey Knights
5k Imperial Guard
4k Harlequins
4k Tau



 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spectrus teams are one of our best toolbox units, especially with the current cost of Eliminators. They'll die horribly 95% of the time, but with smart composition, deployment and play depending on your opponent they can, and will, win you games.

   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Random rules question. Do I need to combat squad my eradicator kill team ( don't have my codex beside me) to get the double tap ability?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




My understanding is no, but you still have to shoot the entire unit at one target to qualify. You can't split-fire bolters at one target and the melta-rifles at another.

Edit: as far as rules questions go, I'll add my own. Have they clarified how giving a sergeant a warlord trait works on a unit? If I give them 'fight first' or 'can't be targeted if not the closest' how would that be limited to one model in a unit?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 00:01:38


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Simplycasualgaming wrote:
Random rules question. Do I need to combat squad my eradicator kill team ( don't have my codex beside me) to get the double tap ability?


No, but the Kill Team rules do specify that only the Eradicators get to double shoot.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




bmsattler wrote:

Edit: as far as rules questions go, I'll add my own. Have they clarified how giving a sergeant a warlord trait works on a unit? If I give them 'fight first' or 'can't be targeted if not the closest' how would that be limited to one model in a unit?


No FAQ yet involving the AOR or supplement strats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 14:18:10


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




FAQ for the AOR is up. CTs are chosen at the army level, and Honored Sergeant "only applies to the Sergeant model", which to my mind still leaves some ambiguity on a few interactions but the intent is there.
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

So, had my first game with the deathwatch yesterday. Lost badly on points, but i normally loose to this opponent and i killed a lot more than i've previously managed so happy enough. still, plently of work on points.

my force:

watch master, with Vigilance incarnate and the relic spear.

5 heavy intercessors in kill team (excutor heavy bolter and the assault 3 rifles)

firstborn kill team of 10, split in two:
sgt with xenophase blade, black shield, heavy hammer, heavy combi-flamer, and one regular vet.

2nd half: frag cannon and 4 regular vets

Redemptor dread with plasma cannon, fragstorms, icarus pod and fist gatling cannon.



my oppo was playing necrons, and experimenting with some of the new options the expansion of core gave him. he had

Lord on charriot-thingy
Cryptek

5 immortals

2 units of 5 Skorpekh Destroyers

a flock of scarabs (4 i think?)



anyway, he gets 1st turn, and due to solid buff stacking on his part (pregame move, 8" base move and 2 different move buffs) he was able to get one of the destroyers to pull off a turn 1 charge that just didnt see coming form necrons, and was in control of both centre objectives. he wiped out my fighty half of the 1stborn vets kill team before they had a chance to do anything other than score a wound via overwatch. he then consolidated into my dread (which promptly mushed one in payback). my turn starts, i dont really move out of my deployment zone as hes basically on top of me with a pair of blender units. in my shooting phase i realise i'd loaded my brand new redemptor (literally assembled the day before the battle and still in bare pastic, to my eternal shame), that i fully intended pre battle to get stuck into melee with, mainly with blast weapons (thinking he;d be running a 20 blob of warriors like he normally does)....that it now couldnt use as it'd been tagged. so, my shooting phase was pretty meh (killed a destroyer form the squad on the point), then charged the watch master in to wipe the destroyers in melee with the dread out, which they managed between them. His turn 2, he moves his scarabs to occuy a point then charges his remaining destroyers into my heavy intercessors, who thanks to transhuman only lose 2 blokes. i fall back in my turn, and the dread, finallly able to shoot, splits its fire between the immortals holding his back objective and the scarabs, removing most of both units (the watch master killed the last immortal with his shooting). i try and shoot the destoryers with the remaing vets but they fluff thier shots, and on his turn he charges them and wipes them out, and his lord charges my heavy intercessors and leaves just the sgt standing between shooting and melee. my turn 3 i have a grand total of 3 models on the field, the dread (on 7 wounds, still), the watch master, and the sgt. the watch master and the dread kill off the scarabs with shooting and then wipe out the destoryers on the charge, but at this point i accept that i can never make up the difference in primary scores and conceeded. However, he only really has his lord and the Cryptek left.


so, my take aways:

always expect 1st turn charges, you just don't know what tricks other armies can pull. I;d front loaded all my vets melee guys into a combat squad to contest the middle objectives but they never got a chance to move, or even fight as they were hacked apart before having a chance to act. i still dont know how good they;d have been in meleeif they got a go, but clearly i need to be more conservative with deployment.

my 2nd combat squad of vets didnt achieve much either, partly due to poor choices of my part (moved them when i didnt have to which stopped them double shooting). really, i had kinda planned to leave them on a rear objective but the mission layout didnt give me any, and they agian died after being charged without fighting.

Given the weak performance of the vets in melee, and the fact the 2nd combat squad was proxied with rubic marines to make up the numbers, i might swap its bolters for shotguns. honestly, i think i'd get more damage done form 4d6 hits form flamer shells on overwatch than by regular shooting.

The heavy intercessors did ok. their shooting wasnt great but, they didnt have much to shoot at, and my oppo kept popping a "-1 to wound" strat on the destroyers that limited their effectiveness. they were decently resilient, though, surviving much better than I had hoped.

Take more care when choosing dread weaponry. I was already planning to get a 2nd one anyway, and that one will have the storm bolters and heavy gatling cannon so it doesnt losse most of its firepower in melee and can shoot its way clear if tagged. however when it did get a chance to shoot, it was pretty effective, reducing 2 units to just a single model in a single phase of fire.

damage 3 relic spear clapped cheeks in this match up, but that might be because he had a preponderance of 3 wound targets it was highly efficient against. It might not be so good a choice if he'd gone for a different list.

i lost because i was boxed in on turn one, and maybe, given the speed of his units, i could have seen it coming, but he's never used them before so i'd not realised how fast they could move.

If I'd held back form the edge of my deployment, i might have denied him the charge, but i;d still have conceded the centre objectives to him and im not sure i had a good way to get him off quickly enough. in my previous few games with tsons, i have found myself having to leave a large expensive unit to watch a rear objective and miss most of the fighting, so this game i tried to go MSU a little. I did have enough squads this time, but now i lacked striking power except for the dread, which got tagged before acting.

I clearly need to revise this list somewhat before trying again. As mentioned above, maybe equip the vets with shotguns to save a few points and flameshot the hell out of any charger, and swap out the dread for one with less blast weapons as i cant effectively screen it at this points level.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts Watch Company Rho 750pts
 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

What your guys opinions on the kill team specialisation? Do you think their worth taking and planning around or just a way to soak up a few loose points at the end of army building ?

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts Watch Company Rho 750pts
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




They are meta dependent, but getting full wound rerolls can make a kill team -very- killy.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

xerxeskingofking wrote:
What your guys opinions on the kill team specialisation? Do you think their worth taking and planning around or just a way to soak up a few loose points at the end of army building ?


Aquila always worth it IMO.

Rest are super situational and meta dependent, but in general I wouldn’t bother unless there is a specific thing your list is weak against, and you want the chance at full rerolls

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Leth wrote:

Aquila always worth it IMO.

Rest are super situational and meta dependent, but in general I wouldn’t bother unless there is a specific thing your list is weak against, and you want the chance at full rerolls


Agreed. Aquila is a nice points top off that always pulls its weight.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




With all the big gribblies running around, what are people's conclusions on melta rifles vs heavy melta rifles? D6+4 is awesome, but only if it hits.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

I think the -1 to hit if you have to move is more than compensated for with the +2 damage at 24. The assault version allows you to advance and charge. It also means that they can guarantee a kill on 3 wounds, and most likely on 4.

The biggest variables will be if you think you will stand still and how often you think the +2 will result in overkill

But that’s just an idea.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/23 18:31:46


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

so, i asked this in the general SM thread, and go exactly zero bites, so since this still seems to be alive i;m copy-pasting this here:

I have a decision to make in the near-ish future and i would like your input:

Im planning on getting the base marine combat patrol box, mainly because I'm planning to run a spectrus kill team with eliminators in it, and for relitively little more (£20 ish), i can get the parts i need for that, PLUS the impossible to get elsewhere supressors, a LT and implusor.


my question relates to the implusor and the loadout options for it. Im planning to stick the iornhail stubber on it with storm bolters for the side guns, but im not sure what would be best on the "rear" mount.

options, and my thoughts so far, are:

orbital comms array: seems rather underwhelming, a one shot trick for a few mortal wounds, frankly it would have been better as a stratagem

Ironhail skytalon array: twin linked stubber with +1 to aircraft? 3.4 rotogens, not great, not terrible for 10 points.

shield dome: a 5++ save is nice, i suppose, but given the prolifteration of MW and ignores invul tricks these days, it might not be worth that much.

Bellicatus missle array: agian, 3.4 rotogens, but 20 points is a bit steep for a what amounts to a the same weapon i can get on a tac marine for 15 points with a sometimes useful anti air trick.

no rear mount: always an option, as its a transport, not a tank, but seems a bit of a waste.


Its still hypotheical for me at the moment, as I neither have the implusor kit, nor do i really have a clear role for it when i get it, given most of my current deathwatch army cant ride in it. Most likely would be a quintet of regular intercesssors for some objective sniping.

so, what do you guys put on your implusors, if anything?

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts Watch Company Rho 750pts
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'll be honest, I have never used an Impulsor. If I did, I would want it to be a mini-tank with some anti-horde to help justify its existence.
   
 
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