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 Galas wrote:
So basically charging Banshee were unbeatable in CC?

Talk about bolter porn and marine power fantasies.

And they were still behind the monsoon of krak grenades the Swooping Hawks could dish out, none of this 1 dice per enemy chuff, 3 grenades per Hawk for maximum marine popping

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The counter to that close combat horror was of course to just shoot them to death.

The Falcon didn’t hit until quite late in 2nd Ed. I want to say it wasn’t in the Codex, but don’t quote me on that.

It wasn't in the codex i have the White Dwarf it was released in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
So basically charging Banshee were unbeatable in CC?

Talk about bolter porn and marine power fantasies.

That's all they did and they did it well. Unit succeeds at intended role and also has clear vulnerabilities and counterplay. Is there a problem?

I'm not a fan of all or nothing approachs to game design, and thats what I see most Eldar players really want. If you are a meele elite unit that blends anything it touches, not doing other stuff like shooting is not really having any kind of weakness.

Thats why LOTR is a better system that both Warhammer in any of their edition incarnations.

 Galas wrote:
I'm not a fan of all or nothing approachs to game design, and thats what I see most Eldar players really want. If you are a meele elite unit that blends anything it touches, not doing other stuff like shooting is not really having any kind of weakness.

Except that they did shoot, some. Like today, they were armed with Shurikan pistols.

And until the Falcon/Wave Serpent arrived their main weakness was they had to foot slog it across the board. (Unless you used the Armorcast Wave Serpent)

ccs wrote:
And until the Falcon/Wave Serpent arrived their main weakness was they had to foot slog it across the board

2nd edition was hit and miss on that front. Banshees could run and charge a flat 12" (but not in the same turn) and bolters were single shot weapons but the level of cover was still the big thing as moving in it while hidden made units untargetable.

ccs wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm not a fan of all or nothing approachs to game design, and thats what I see most Eldar players really want. If you are a meele elite unit that blends anything it touches, not doing other stuff like shooting is not really having any kind of weakness.

Except that they did shoot, some. Like today, they were armed with Shurikan pistols.

And until the Falcon/Wave Serpent arrived their main weakness was they had to foot slog it across the board. (Unless you used the Armorcast Wave Serpent)

Laspistols in 2nd ed, going by the sculpt.

 Galas wrote:
I'm not a fan of all or nothing approachs to game design, and thats what I see most Eldar players really want. If you are a meele elite unit that blends anything it touches, not doing other stuff like shooting is not really having any kind of weakness.

I don't get it, how is not being a shooting threat not a weakness? Also their low durability is a weakness. Also in 2nd, if you charged them with something well equipped you could take them out too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

ccs wrote:
And until the Falcon/Wave Serpent arrived their main weakness was they had to foot slog it across the board

2nd edition was hit and miss on that front. Banshees could run and charge a flat 12" (but not in the same turn) and bolters were single shot weapons but the level of cover was still the big thing as moving in it while hidden made units untargetable.

Well, Marines had Rapid Fire so 2@24" if they didn't move.

 Dysartes wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm not a fan of all or nothing approachs to game design, and thats what I see most Eldar players really want. If you are a meele elite unit that blends anything it touches, not doing other stuff like shooting is not really having any kind of weakness.

Except that they did shoot, some. Like today, they were armed with Shurikan pistols.

And until the Falcon/Wave Serpent arrived their main weakness was they had to foot slog it across the board. (Unless you used the Armorcast Wave Serpent)

Laspistols in 2nd ed, going by the sculpt.

Points the same. They shot a little bit.

ccs wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm not a fan of all or nothing approachs to game design, and thats what I see most Eldar players really want. If you are a meele elite unit that blends anything it touches, not doing other stuff like shooting is not really having any kind of weakness.

Except that they did shoot, some. Like today, they were armed with Shurikan pistols.

And until the Falcon/Wave Serpent arrived their main weakness was they had to foot slog it across the board. (Unless you used the Armorcast Wave Serpent)

Laspistols in 2nd ed, going by the sculpt.

Points the same. They shot a little bit.

Yes Banshees could shoot with their laspistols (and subsequent shuriken pistols from 3rd edition onwards) but I admit that isn't their point. It is the same with Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers actually hitting back in melee. Yes they theoretically can do it and club an attacking Ork Boy but that's not their intended function.

However I don't see that an issue with Banshees any more than Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons filling a role. The Banshees were meant to be fearsome melee combatants, IF they could successfully charge, and if they weren't tarpitted. Banshees could kill Genestealers if they charged, but they had better do so otherwise later they would suffer once the Genestealers were no longer under the effect of the masks. Alternatively, the Banshees could be blocked by Gaunts and tarpitted to be either ignored or then wiped out by Genestealers then charging into the melee.

I think it a sad state of affairs where if an Eldar unit is actually effective at its role, the spectre of "overpoweredness" gets raised. Is it that horrible for a xenos unit to actually be good at something?


As for the balance between Scorpions vs Banshees that has shifted over the years depending on the armor save mechanic and also the relative abundance of MEQs vs horde armies. Overall I would say the utility of the average Striking Scorpion (not counting the Exarch who has the Claw option) has decreased given the dominance of MEQ.

The changes to vehicles made Banshees less appealing as Scorpions can be where you need them.

 Galas wrote:
I'm not a fan of all or nothing approachs to game design, and thats what I see most Eldar players really want. If you are a meele elite unit that blends anything it touches, not doing other stuff like shooting is not really having any kind of weakness.

Thats why LOTR is a better system that both Warhammer in any of their edition incarnations.

That's why I like the idea of letting aspects be good at jobs other than, "Kill X." So using banshees as an example, instead of making them blend paladin squads to death, we could focus on their screams and turn them into more of a tarpit unit that also happens to be choppy enough to win combat eventually. Let the screams impose more severe penalties to offense than the current -1 to hit, and prevent falling back. So you end up with banshees that are functionally good at winning combat (by stabbing moderately well but making their targets stab poorly), but you do so in a way that doesn't raise the bar for what a "good" melee unit's offense looks like. And you make the unit more flexible by letting it tie up targets too tough to kill outright.

No lethality creep. Makes banshees pretty good in melee. Makes banshees flexible enough to be useful even when they can't insta-gib their target in melee.

In an edition where Bladeguard Veterans and Incubi are as deadly as they are, why shouldn't Banshees be utterly lethal in CC too?

Like it or not, this lethality inflation is an established thing and one which every Codex so far has been effected by. Making weird exceptions here and there for certain armies for arbitrary reasons only serves to make those armies and those units complete gak. Banshees already have some applicability in terms of utility because being able to do huge charges, shut down overwatch and tie shooty units up in CC is a useful ability. They're not bad at this role and they're not even overly expensive either. Same with Scorpions and Spiders; excellent Linebreaker/Deploy Scrambler bots, able to actually score you VP's and win you games.

What the actual problem is, outside of a pure gameplay perspective, is that none of these units sell the fantasy or represent their lore-selves at all. Even the slightest amount. Banshees have applicability and usefulness in-game, but only as a jank tying up unit. When you read their lore it continually hits you over the head about how they're the greatest duellists in the galaxy, able to carve swathes through Astartes lines, best shock troops around etc etc etc. They do not perform that role at all currently.

I'd actually be more likely to take those 3 units in a reasonably competitive game than I would otherwise, just on a pure crunchy VP-focused level. In a casual or narrative game I wouldn't go anywhere near them because their actual use in-game shatters any and all narrative immersion.

 Bosskelot wrote:
In an edition where Bladeguard Veterans and Incubi are as deadly as they are, why shouldn't Banshees be utterly lethal in CC too?

I agree with this.

I get the feeling people want to keep Howling Banshees lethality at old edition level in vain hope that GW will eventually scale back the lethality to that level. The thing is they won't. We live in a post-Primaris environment where elite space marine units can wipe the floor with elite xenos units. I also get the feeling people are not aware that there are limited amount of turns in this game which means a tarpit unit that eventually kills its enemy unit is going to be stuck in a tarpit the entire game. They won't do anything else as the game is over before they probably finish their job and with the lethality of the game they'll be dead before then.

GW doesn't care about less lethality and won't listen. The new lethality is upon us and we can only hope that the Craftworlds will get the same treatment or they will truly be a dead species. To wish for regression is to wish for disappointment.

Oh, I mean, in present 40K I don't see a problem with Banshee deleting nearly anything they touch.

Thats how things work now. Unless you are charging untis like 3++ custodes or Bullgryn or Deathguard terminators or transhuman Bladeguard, the meele is won by the one that strikes first 90% of the time. And most of the time after that first strike theres nothing left of the unit you charged.

 Galas wrote:
I'm not a fan of all or nothing approachs to game design, and thats what I see most Eldar players really want. If you are a meele elite unit that blends anything it touches, not doing other stuff like shooting is not really having any kind of weakness.

Thats why LOTR is a better system that both Warhammer in any of their edition incarnations.

All Or Nothing is kinda CWE's schtick. They are fast, but more than that, they're skilled. They're perfectionists. DE are the excessive faction, CWE are the perfection faction.

Their culture and situation drive them to need to perfectly execute the engagement. This means a perfect engagement with no mistakes. Most of their units are built for that. Super effective at what they do, terrible at anything else.

Comes down to they should be hard to kill until they engage, really killy when they engage, then fold like paper to any reprisals. Because if they didn't execute a perfect engagement.

This is why I love the Wave Serpent. Only vehicle in 40k to have a 5-star crash rating. Playing CWE *should* be all about maneuvering until that one turn you engage. And winning/losing based on how perfectly you can execute that turn.

Unfortunately, (1) 40k is moving ever increasingly away from the tactical depth that sort of play needs, and (2) that sort of design only works with really tight balance - even a small mistake makes such units either OP or trash (hence what we've see of CWE historically).

Bharring wrote:
Comes down to they should be hard to kill until they engage, really killy when they engage, then fold like paper to any reprisals. Because if they didn't execute a perfect engagement.

That sounds like dark eldar, not craftworld eldar.

A.T. wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Comes down to they should be hard to kill until they engage, really killy when they engage, then fold like paper to any reprisals. Because if they didn't execute a perfect engagement.

That sounds like dark eldar, not craftworld eldar.

It is the nature of the specie. Methods within that sphere is what distinguish them, with Craftworlders using the Path and Aspects while the Dark ones use torture, pain, and body modification to excel.

 Charistoph wrote:

A.T. wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Comes down to they should be hard to kill until they engage, really killy when they engage, then fold like paper to any reprisals. Because if they didn't execute a perfect engagement.

That sounds like dark eldar, not craftworld eldar.

It is the nature of the specie. Methods within that sphere is what distinguish them, with Craftworlders using the Path and Aspects while the Dark ones use torture, pain, and body modification to excel.

They're both ambush-happy, and frequently glass cannons.

DE engage quickly, directly, excessively.

CWE engage slowly, indirectly, carefully.

They both show up in an explosion of violence, and don't generally fight protracted engagements. But DE are more charactarized by excessiveness, CWE by carefulness.

 Charistoph wrote:
It is the nature of the specie. Methods within that sphere is what distinguish them, with Craftworlders using the Path and Aspects while the Dark ones use torture, pain, and body modification to excel.

Eldar also use a lot of static artillery, giant robots, snipers and entrenched heavy weapons supported by heavy armour and psychic buffs/debuffs.

DE are glass cannons, taking casualties while piling in, kill or be killed.
If you look at Banshees by comparison they have rules for avoiding damage on the way in, rules for avoid damage when attacked, and a variety of psychic powers to make them harder to kill. Before the to-hit penalty rules were changed the whole basis of many eldar lists were that you simply couldn't hit them at all, not unlike earlier editions of moving around and picking opponents apart at arms length.

A.T. wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
It is the nature of the specie. Methods within that sphere is what distinguish them, with Craftworlders using the Path and Aspects while the Dark ones use torture, pain, and body modification to excel.

Eldar also use a lot of static artillery, giant robots, snipers and entrenched heavy weapons supported by heavy armour and psychic buffs/debuffs.

None of that is intended to fight a pitched battle. Most of the above are about avoiding fighting the pitched battle.

Snipers and CWE's versions of artillery are for redirecting the conflict, not fighting on the front. The artillery is mostly indirect-firing weaponry - with surprisingly short range. Something like a D-Cannon is best used either to light up a killbox ambush, or force enemy movement. It's range is no further than most armies' standard infantry weapons.

The heavy armor is about positioning. In theory, Serpents, Falcons, and the like pack a decent punch, but aren't fighting the battle on their own. They're skirmish kings, who shine before the forces directly engage. This is in line with the idea that CWE avoids exposure until it fully engages; a Falcon chasis is very durable before it gets close, but quite vulnerable at short range/from behind. So CWE armor is not exposed to much threat until they fully engage the foe, at which point it can be very exposed.

"Entrenched heavy weapons" are basically the same as IoM "Entrenched heavy weapons", but even worse in a pitched battle. The IoM versions come equipped with troops that can handle themselves in a protracted environment. Whether talking Guardsmen or Marines, or even Kabalites, Guardians are easily the worst suited to protracted environments.

Wraith constructs are another matter. But, fluffwise, they're only used when the Craftworld is extra specially boned. Although it's noteworthy that Wraithguard are exclusively short range (CC or 12" or less). And Dreads have much better long range firepower than Wraithlords. I don't recall how Wraithknight guns stack up to IK guns, though.

Almost everything about CWE screams hyper-specialists. They don't bring the excessive speed their DE kin do. Instead, everything is specialized and limited.

Look at their ranges. Their skirmishers (vehicles, snipers) have great range, and are hard to kill at that range, but not great firepower. Their non-skirmishers have terrible range, are easy to kill at that range, but have amazing firepower. You should need to use the skirmishers to direct combat, engage suddenly at close range, and cripple the enemy before anything even sneezes back at you.

Lumineth Realmlords are getting 11-kit second wave. I can't help but think what a similar size release could include for Eldar. Oh well.

jullevi wrote:
Lumineth Realmlords are getting 11-kit second wave. I can't help but think what a similar size release could include for Eldar. Oh well.

Well we can’t rule that out. Given how far into the thread we are, it’s understandable if you’ve not come in from the beginning. But I did set out a breakdown of how many units are ancient, and compared it to the Necron release I recently enjoyed.

If you do go back, please don’t take my stuff as completely gospel - I have likely missed things. But as an army, Craftworld’s haven’t received a huge amount of New Unit Love over the years.

Also, I remain more than chuffed we’ve reached such a high page count without any bickering.

Given the dry slap, models wise, the Dark Kin got its unlikely it would be much more than 3 and we've already had Banshees and Jain

I just read the Goonhammer review of the Drukari dex. I love Goonhammer. Here's the quote:

"You do lose one key option, though: the new Weakling Kin rule means that you can’t take any non-Drukhari models in a detachment with any Drukhari units unless all the units in that detachment are Ynnari. This means no more splashing Yvraine or the Yncarne into your Drukhari detachment for psychic support. This directly proscribes something that was a central part of the 8th edition Ynnari design, so it’s an interesting hint that there’s changes coming there, too."

Now I'm working on a pet theory; Necrons and SM got huge amounts of attention because they were starter factions. Everyone else gets Codex speed releases with minimal model support.

Once the dexes are all out, campaigns will drive things from that point on. Ynarri were invented specifically to drive change for Eldar of all stripes, and there are a number of ways it could happen. But I think that is where the army refreshing is going to happen, not necessarily with dexes.

I suspect guard and CWE will get big updates this edition; once that happens, pretty much GW's range will be modern.

Bharring wrote:
Almost everything about CWE screams hyper-specialists.

That I agree with, it was the 'all or nothing / engage then fold like paper' that didn't scream craftworlds at me.

I suspect guard and CWE will get big updates this edition; once that happens, pretty much GW's range will be modern.

I suspect this as well. I also expect that they will add something to sell them better like add Ynnari options and what not.

PenitentJake wrote:Now I'm working on a pet theory; Necrons and SM got huge amounts of attention because they were starter factions. Everyone else gets Codex speed releases with minimal model support.

So... explain Orks and Sisters under this theory.
We're looking at multiple kits for both. At least two for Sisters (past the Lt that just came out), and at least 2 for orks (some character we've seen bits of, and the Squigrider), with a video hinting at several more, at the least.

Armies associated with the first campaign book aren't getting anything beyond (1) character so far (3 of 4 factions), so the idea that army refreshing is tied to campaigns is already demonstrably not true.

Edition and codex churn isn't going anywhere.

Voss wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:Now I'm working on a pet theory; Necrons and SM got huge amounts of attention because they were starter factions. Everyone else gets Codex speed releases with minimal model support.

So... explain Orks and Sisters under this theory.
We're looking at multiple kits for both. At least two for Sisters (past the Lt that just came out), and at least 2 for orks (some character we've seen bits of, and the Squigrider), with a video hinting at several more, at the least.

Armies associated with the first campaign book aren't getting anything beyond (1) character so far (3 of 4 factions), so the idea that army refreshing is tied to campaigns is already demonstrably not true.

Perhaps I didn't choose my words well.

Yes, there is a campaign cycle happening right now. But Codexes are also coming out right now- which is why the second campaign cycle will be the one with the larger refresh releases. They've got to get those dexes out- until it's done, that is the priority for the game.

You are correct, of course correct about two models previewed for Orks and an additional two models previewed for sisters. And they might come out with dexes and mess with my theory a bit. But we don't know when any of those releases will come. Either way, neither release will be the size of the Guard and Eldar releases though, which is essentially what I'm trying to get at: releases of range refresh size happen with the starter kits; then we get a codex blitz with fewer releases. Then once the dexes are all out, campaigns have to drive the release cycle, and that opens up the space for more model releases.

Like I said- it's a pet theory; good chance a few details are off. They might refresh a range during the dex release cycle since their plan of 2 dexes/ month fell through. But that was the plan before the shipping crap went crazy, and I just don't see how they could plan to release 2 dexes per month if they were also planning to release 5 or more kits to accompany some of those releases- it would saturate the market and people would end up buying less because they'd have to pick and choose the things they wanted most if everything was all available at the same time.

 Mezmorki wrote:
My impression is that shurikens were supposed to mono-molecular and would essentially slice through armor by cleaving apart molecular bonds in the target material as opposed to trying to use more conventional methods of force and kinetic energy to break the armor.

It still needs kinetic energy to move through the air and target...and I suppose AP of -6 since it can slice through molecules.