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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Mezmorki wrote:

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.
The thing that originally made Guardians sexy (not including the models, which I love) was their ability to carry the most potent basic rifle of the game at the time. (pre Tau, Pre Necron). The Shuriken Catapult had a 24" range, S4 and a -2 AP with a Sustained fire dice (approximate* D3). Space Marines had to stand still to fire their weapon twice, while Guardians could move and pump out excellent anti-infantry firepower, if only a bit less accurate. (BS3) They could actually take Lasguns too, at the time. In practice, Guardians were like Guardsmen with access to a MUCH better weapon. (They also had better armor).

The Shuriken Catapult never recovered from it's drop to 12" range in 3rd edition. In 3rd it actually worked ok at that range, because of the comparative nature of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons at the time. But the Bolter has improved continuously since 3rd, particularly in the hands of a Space Marine, while the Catapult has languished.

It's sad, because I really like Guardians.
Oh yeah, Guardians also had moveable Heavy Weapons in their squads. That was a huge deal too.

*Sustained Fire Die - six sided die printed thusly:( 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - JAM ) 50% chance of 2+ shots, 17% chance that you couldn't fire and would have to spend your next firing phase clearing the jam.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/09 00:47:44


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Been Around the Block




 Insectum7 wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.
The thing that originally made Guardians sexy (not including the models, which I love) was their ability to carry the most potent basic rifle of the game at the time. (pre Tau, Pre Necron). The Shuriken Catapult had a 24" range, S4 and a -2 AP with a Sustained fire dice (approximate* D3). Space Marines had to stand still to fire their weapon twice, while Guardians could move and pump out excellent anti-infantry firepower, if only a bit less accurate. (BS3) They could actually take Lasguns too, at the time. In practice, Guardians were like Guardsmen with access to a MUCH better weapon. (They also had better armor).

The Shuriken Catapult never recovered from it's drop to 12" range in 3rd edition. In 3rd it actually worked ok at that range, because of the comparative nature of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons at the time. But the Bolter has improved continuously since 3rd, particularly in the hands of a Space Marine, while the Catapult has languished.

It's sad, because I really like Guardians.
Oh yeah, Guardians also had moveable Heavy Weapons in their squads. That was a huge deal too.


I agree with all of this. I'd add that having warlocks as the squad leader was really key too, at that time every unit had some kind of leader that was usually a fighter, Eldar having a psyker gave them a unique identity. One little thing that would be nice would be the ability to take a unit of 10 guardians that includes the heavy weapons team, so they're not quite so vulnerable to blast weapons.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.
The thing that originally made Guardians sexy (not including the models, which I love) was their ability to carry the most potent basic rifle of the game at the time. (pre Tau, Pre Necron). The Shuriken Catapult had a 24" range, S4 and a -2 AP with a Sustained fire dice (approximate* D3). Space Marines had to stand still to fire their weapon twice, while Guardians could move and pump out excellent anti-infantry firepower, if only a bit less accurate. (BS3) They could actually take Lasguns too, at the time. In practice, Guardians were like Guardsmen with access to a MUCH better weapon. (They also had better armor).

The Shuriken Catapult never recovered from it's drop to 12" range in 3rd edition. In 3rd it actually worked ok at that range, because of the comparative nature of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons at the time. But the Bolter has improved continuously since 3rd, particularly in the hands of a Space Marine, while the Catapult has languished.

It's sad, because I really like Guardians.
Oh yeah, Guardians also had moveable Heavy Weapons in their squads. That was a huge deal too.

*Sustained Fire Die - six sided die printed thusly:( 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - JAM ) 50% chance of 2+ shots, 17% chance that you couldn't fire and would have to spend your next firing phase clearing the jam.


I would say the 12" shuriken catapult never worked even in 3rd edition because of the AP system being all or nothing, and MEQs still being the most common opponent. One extra S4 shot was nothing, and then armies started being able to effectively assault ovever 12" rendering their whole gun worthless. The 2nd edition gun was best, arguably overpowered, but some minor tweaking was what was needed rather than a nerfbat, such as reducing the armor save modifier to -1 instead of -2, and perhaps just making it a straight 2 shot weapon instead of the finicky Sustained Fire Dice.

Guardian armor was only better in 2nd edition compared to Guardsmen, who got a 6+ (5+ vs. blasts and templates).

Ironically the Eldar are more vulnerable to LD issues than the Guard because they got all those various morale boosting or LD re-rolls or test on the officer LD over the various editions, whereas the Eldar didn't get any of that so their base LD started looking subpar.

As others have mentioned, there has been erosion of design space and right now nobody in GW seems enthusiastic about them. That is not to say they cannot create effective albeit bland units. The Eldar have always been competitive usually due to a few overpowered units and combos that then get spammed. It's just that it's fairly obvious that GW authors seem to gush over with ideas with SM, they seem to suddenly lack them when it comes to Eldar or other xenos races and settle for a few boring re-rolls or other tweaks that don't really fire up players' imagination.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/09 01:01:10


 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Ielthan wrote:
and it seems the new banshees didn't sell as well as they'd hoped. .

Because there was no point in buying Banshees. They are aesthetically, close enough to the previous models, the rules aren't exactly compelling and the box is overpriced reaching 1$ per point.

And it's probably the whole issue with CWE. GW can't, somehow, come up with new ideas (probably because they are not sure how but also because the aesthetics probably aren't something the fan base wants to see changed, which would tie into Ynnari being abandoned) so it isn't a really as good a business move to just make new models like the previous ones, outside of 6th/7th where they over corrected, every edition's codex has mostly been about nerfing the stuff that was strong in the previous codex and a lot of mechanics where moved from CWE to other flavours of Eldars and eventually other armies. Even something iconic like heavy weapons platforms in guardians unit is more of a joke than anything nowadays. So the interest for players and collectors alike have declined. It's kinda why, as another poster speculated, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if exodites were released in the next few years before a new CWE range, as it feels like they started to also pop up in the lore.
There was also a period when FW/GW was reimagining a few concepts (the titans, the super heavies and created a few new vehicles, for Epic and 40K), dunno why it didn't translate into the main range though.

But since they are in their "let's remake our 90s ! Everyone loves that" period and the models are old enough maybe we can hope for a sister of battle treatment. AKA a close redesign of all the entries with barely anything new conceptually to "test" waters although it would be harder to achieve (can't redo CWE with just a few infantry boxes apparently).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/09 01:03:36


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




dhallnet wrote:
Ielthan wrote:
and it seems the new banshees didn't sell as well as they'd hoped. .

Because there was no point in buying Banshees. They are aesthetically, close enough to the previous models, the rules aren't exactly compelling and the box is overpriced reaching 1$ per point.

And it's probably the whole issue with CWE. GW can't, somehow, come up with new ideas (probably because they are not sure how but also because the aesthetics probably aren't something the fan base wants to see changed, which would tie into Ynnari being abandoned) so it isn't a really as good a business move to just make new models like the previous ones, outside of 6th/7th where they over corrected, every edition's codex has mostly been about nerfing the stuff that was strong in the previous codex and a lot of mechanics where moved from CWE to other flavours of Eldars and eventually other armies. So the interest for players and collectors alike have declined. It's kinda why, as another poster speculated, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if exodites were released in the next few years.
There was also a period when FW/GW was reimagining a few concepts though (the titans, the super heavies and created a few new vehicles, for Epic and 40K), dunno why it didn't translate into the main range though.

But since they are in their "let's remake our 90s ! Everyone loves that" period and the models are old enough maybe we can hope for a sister of battle treatment. AKA a close redesign of all the entries with barely anything new conceptually to "test" waters although it would be harder to achieve (can't redo CWE with just a few infantry boxes apparently).


Exodites were hinted at in Phoenix Rising, with it saying how younger Exodites were growing discontented with their elders and wanted to play a bigger part in the galaxy's affairs, spurred on by the Ynnari.

I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.
   
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Iracundus wrote:
I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.

As far as I'm concerned, I just don't want Ynnari if it means "let's make a super faction and merge CWE/Dark eldar designs together !". I'm also completely fine with them being a bunch of specific characters with followers from various other Aeldari cultures. Since that's actually what they are.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




dhallnet wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.

As far as I'm concerned, I just don't want Ynnari if it means "let's make a super faction and merge CWE/Dark eldar designs together !". I'm also completely fine with them being a bunch of specific characters with followers from various other Aeldari cultures. Since that's actually what they are.


Your two sentences just seemed to contradict each other, first by saying you don't mind a super faction merging them together, but then saying you don't mind them being characters with followers from different cultures.

I don't think Ynnari should be Eldar soup. They need to develop their own identity as a faction rather than just consist of units scavenged from Craftoworld, Dark Eldar, or Harlequin lists.

The problem is right now we don't have information on what the Ynnari are up to now, or how they function as a society/cult. The movement is described as spreading yet all we ever see the focus on is Yvraine and her immediate circle of followers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/09 01:10:27


 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Iracundus wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
I don't mind the Ynnari if it revitalizes the Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins as a whole, but the Ynnari need to be fleshed out as a faction rather than having units that are basically scavenged from elsewhere. They would also benefit from more background and generic characters rather than the same triumvirate over and over.

As far as I'm concerned, I just don't want Ynnari if it means "let's make a super faction and merge CWE/Dark eldar designs together !". I'm also completely fine with them being a bunch of specific characters with followers from various other Aeldari cultures. Since that's actually what they are.


Your two sentences just seemed to contradict each other, first by saying you don't mind a super faction merging them together, but then saying you don't mind them being characters with followers from different cultures.

I don't think Ynnari should be Eldar soup. They need to develop their own identity as a faction rather than just consist of units scavenged from Craftoworld, Dark Eldar, or Harlequin lists.

The problem is right now we don't have information on what the Ynnari are up to now, or how they function as a society/cult. The movement is described as spreading yet all we ever see the focus on is Yvraine and her immediate circle of followers.

What I meant is I don't want a merge of CWE aesthetics and Dark Eldars aesthetics to form a third aesthetic which would replace the previous two. I think we're safe on this side now but it wasn't that clear when they introduced Ynnari.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/09 01:33:25


 
   
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Fayetteville NC

I really thought Ynarri was a concept years back where GW was going to ultimately merge the Aeldari factions into a single army. Then something changed, and I don't know what happened.

Right now, I've got about 15,000 points of painted Craftworld and loved the new Banshee models in plastic. Clean details, well designed models and retaining the Jes Goodwin original concept. If GW does update the line, I will happily buy the new models to paint and replace my aged model collection. I've played Eldar since Rogue Trader and am willing to expand the collection.

Whoah....I have played 40K for over 30 years.  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So....what is going on? Why has one of 40k’s original and iconic armies been left to wither on the vine? We know they’re popular. We know they sell pretty well as a result. So where’s their dues, let alone the studio love?
Same thing as with the imperial guard, they are a faction with a very broad range of legacy models and are not marines/chaos.
Even orks and nids - what new units have they actually seen since 2014? How many have they lost? (2015 was craftworlds and harlies)

Necrons and DE by comparison are still in the process of being filled out with units. It's new stuff taking priority over resculpts.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Craftworlds just do not compare favourably. Each of their update phases, looking back, feel distinctly half arsed.
I don't know... orks and nids have had a bad case of codex shrinkage over the years. The Eldar have never actually lost units other than the odd character and have a few recently released spin-off subfactions.


Besides - 'worst of it' is going to go to the inquisition any day of the week, players of which look on with envy at the steady flow of new squat and zoat models.
   
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Executing Exarch






 Sarigar wrote:
I really thought Ynarri was a concept years back where GW was going to ultimately merge the Aeldari factions into a single army. Then something changed, and I don't know what happened.

Right now, I've got about 15,000 points of painted Craftworld and loved the new Banshee models in plastic. Clean details, well designed models and retaining the Jes Goodwin original concept. If GW does update the line, I will happily buy the new models to paint and replace my aged model collection. I've played Eldar since Rogue Trader and am willing to expand the collection.


Exactly. The only reason Eldar players dont have collect and play more aspects is that they are garbage fine cast or expensive metal OOP. Neither of which is appealing. I would love to get me couple squads of swooping hawks in plastic. I dont own any and would chomp at the bit to get my hands on 10 or 20 and another bunch of scorpions etc.. Loads of people would.

I got new Jain Zair as well as 2 sets of banshees when they came out. But... at £35 per 5x 1W t3 infantry is a bit hard to swallow.. Luckily there are discounter retailers but stil.. That's a silly price.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Iracundus wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.
The thing that originally made Guardians sexy (not including the models, which I love) was their ability to carry the most potent basic rifle of the game at the time. (pre Tau, Pre Necron). The Shuriken Catapult had a 24" range, S4 and a -2 AP with a Sustained fire dice (approximate* D3). Space Marines had to stand still to fire their weapon twice, while Guardians could move and pump out excellent anti-infantry firepower, if only a bit less accurate. (BS3) They could actually take Lasguns too, at the time. In practice, Guardians were like Guardsmen with access to a MUCH better weapon. (They also had better armor).

The Shuriken Catapult never recovered from it's drop to 12" range in 3rd edition. In 3rd it actually worked ok at that range, because of the comparative nature of Assault and Rapid Fire weapons at the time. But the Bolter has improved continuously since 3rd, particularly in the hands of a Space Marine, while the Catapult has languished.

It's sad, because I really like Guardians.
Oh yeah, Guardians also had moveable Heavy Weapons in their squads. That was a huge deal too.

*Sustained Fire Die - six sided die printed thusly:( 1 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 3 - JAM ) 50% chance of 2+ shots, 17% chance that you couldn't fire and would have to spend your next firing phase clearing the jam.


I would say the 12" shuriken catapult never worked even in 3rd edition because of the AP system being all or nothing, and MEQs still being the most common opponent.
I understand the sentiment but I disagree on the basis that the Bolter was also very limited, being able to only fire one shot on the move and disalowing charging afterwards. This gave Guardians a huge boost to their fluidity of action.

Assault was . . . Interesting in 3rd. Generally not bad with the exception of BAs, and I don't think Gav Thorpe really understood what he was doing when he wrote that book.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
I understand the sentiment but I disagree on the basis that the Bolter was also very limited, being able to only fire one shot on the move and disalowing charging afterwards. This gave Guardians a huge boost to their fluidity of action.
Not even that - infantry rapid fire weapons got no shots at all on the move 3rd-5th edition.
Though at 12" the guardians didn't have many options. The 18" avengers on the other hand...
   
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We haven't even got into what a joke aspect warriors have become. They went from probably the most deadly infantry in the game in past editions, to a literal joke now that even generic space marines will happily pound into submission with no trouble, whether at range or in combat.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm loading up Dire Avengers because they're cheaper than Banshees and they're plastic, which means they're unlikely to be replaced. They're also troops, so there's that.

I haven't assembled or painted any CWE, but my concept flies in the face of Expert Crafters. I wanted a pure Aspect detachment- three units of Dire Avengers, three units of Banshees, Jain Zair and Asurmen; he was going to be the last model I bought in order to give GW the longest possible span of time to replace him with plastic.

And if they did, I'd be able to say I had a pure plastic Battalion of Aspect Warriors. Because of the specialized build, I'd use the Children of Khaine CW trait to add a point of damage to melee attacks on a six and the Superior Shurikens CW trait for an extra 4" range on everyone's gun. I'd kit one unit of Banshees with Slashing Impact for Mortal wounds on the charge in addition to war shout.

As for the Dire Avengers, I'd give them all Bladestorm instead of Battle Fortune for extra hits on exploding 6's and load the exarchs up with shimmer shields for the Invul.

I like this combination of CW Traits for pure Aspect Warriors better than the Biel Tan perks.

I also really like Iyanden Spirit Hosts as a second detachment to add some support for the Children of Khaine.

I'm not terribly competitive; I don't know if that would be decent on the table or not, but I like it for rule of cool. Whether it wins or not is a secondary concern.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/09 03:39:10


 
   
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A.T. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I understand the sentiment but I disagree on the basis that the Bolter was also very limited, being able to only fire one shot on the move and disalowing charging afterwards. This gave Guardians a huge boost to their fluidity of action.
Not even that - infantry rapid fire weapons got no shots at all on the move 3rd-5th edition.
Though at 12" the guardians didn't have many options. The 18" avengers on the other hand...
Rapid Fire in 3rd was shoot once at half range on the move, twice at half range/once at full range standing still.

Iirc, 4th upgraded them to fire twice on the move, half range.

5th gave Marines Bolt Pistols back as standard equipment, giving them the ability to shoot once at 12" and then assault.

Nowadays with my Ultramarines I'm moving, firing twice at 24", and with a -1 AP for tactical doctrine. If I ran Primaris *spit* I'd be firing twice at 30" at a -2APin Tac Doctrine. Meanwhile Shuriken Catapults are still 12" range at AP0. . . . It's totally fething stupid.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/09 03:56:28


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
We haven't even got into what a joke aspect warriors have become. They went from probably the most deadly infantry in the game in past editions, to a literal joke now that even generic space marines will happily pound into submission with no trouble, whether at range or in combat.


The steady power creep has also led to things like the Eradicators and their entire squad's melta rifles being each equal to the Fire Dragon Exarch's relic Firepike. It's like 3rd edition again when Gav Thorpe or the rest of GW balked at giving Fire Dragons S8 weapons and so gave them "advanced" Fusion guns that were S6, thus under performing the melta weapons of the "primitive" races.
   
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 Dysartes wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.


If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....


Dammit, now why'd ya have ta bring that up
   
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Mississippi

 Overread wrote:
the only reason banshee didn't sell well is the duel pack they were in was the most expensive GW did and mostly had old Eldar models and then big fancy new banshee; followed up by being an expensive 5 person kit when sold on their own.

That and I think there's also the lack of hype. It's 1 new kit in an army that needs a LOT of new kits to rekindle existing eldar fans. That alone might have been more of an issue than the price. It's easier to soak a higher price when there's loads of new shiny things to get excited over.



I do agree Eldar need a big rework.

I wonder if the sole reason is that, despite having loads of concept designs, there's just no one in the design team who likes them enough to have done them and no management pressure to get them done. That said whilst we know that GW is often design-led we've no real idea of the internal politics of the company to say for sure. It might be plastic eldar revamps are sitting on the shelf ready to go and someone in management hates them or just never found a slot for them.


What's really odd is GW went all in on Yinnari which is basically just allied craftworld and dark eldar and yet didn't pair that with a big update. It was a lazy way to try and boost sales in both armies by selling them to the "other side" as it were.



As for Exodites I think GW only rolls them out in the hope people by lizardmen/seraphon kits to convert into Eldar riding dinosaurs. Otherwise there's no reason that they keep rolling that lore out over and over with no model delivery in decades.



I think there's a slot for Eldar, they just need someone to kick them out of the slump they are in right now at GW. As a necron player I do agree, Necrons didn't "need" the update. Its a fantastic update and I love the new sculpts and new models, but darn it Eldar want the love too.


Also, I imagine several people didn't buy the Banshees as they were waiting for the rest of the aspects to go plastic (I was one of them).

However, what's really needed is a Guilliman-sized kick in the pants. Just redoing existing sculpts isn't going to pull in those who already have full armies - you need something new. And they need to pull in someone who will champion the line - both on the model side and the rule side.

I'm thinking a return of Asurmen event. He's been gone for a bit to contemplate and decided that the eldar have fallen into stagnation that threatens them. Throws out the bad of old aspect shrines, and remolds them into improved versions of the old shrines, as well as some new.

And he's totally opposed to Ynarri, convinced the current Ynead is a Slaanish trick, and is convinced that the current torn state of the galaxy is the fault of humanity. They have to go. To create - y'know - tension.

Then, to the kits - new sculpts and options for the existing shrines. Rebuild Asurmen's shrine warriors as a new faction, but leave things open enough they can still build craftworld forces if they want.

Make each aspect kit a dual kit - to build an existing Aspect and a new type (like the Tau Fire Warrior/Breacher unit). Rebuild each existing Aspect with brand new rules and options (move the old Aspect rules to Legends?). Bring in some new Phoenix lords, to boot. And a complete reworking of the Avatar on par with a primarch. Throw in a new tank with no transport capacity that doesn't us the falcon kit.

Something like

Banshees - Sirens (melee troops)
Scorpions - Cobras (assassins)
Spiders - Krakens (assault)
Dragons - Chimera (anti-tank)
Hawks - Phoenixes (scouts)
Reapers - Hounds (ranged troops)



It never ends well 
   
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Iracundus wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
We haven't even got into what a joke aspect warriors have become. They went from probably the most deadly infantry in the game in past editions, to a literal joke now that even generic space marines will happily pound into submission with no trouble, whether at range or in combat.


The steady power creep has also led to things like the Eradicators and their entire squad's melta rifles being each equal to the Fire Dragon Exarch's relic Firepike. It's like 3rd edition again when Gav Thorpe or the rest of GW balked at giving Fire Dragons S8 weapons and so gave them "advanced" Fusion guns that were S6, thus under performing the melta weapons of the "primitive" races.
Actually there was a semi-reason behind that, and it had to do with armor penetration. In 2nd ed the armor pen (against vehicles) of a Meltagun wasn't all that great, especially when compared to the 2nd Ed Multimelta. If the Fusion gun kept it's S8 for 3rd it would have suddenly had the same anti armor capability at a Multimelta. I think they wanted Fire Dragons to be required to assault vehicles with Meltabombs, which is what was required for 2nd most of the time, while S6 was still plenty good against most models with a T value at the time.

That doesn't mean the fact that Imperial Meltaguns keeping S8 isn't awkward, but there does seem to be some logic around S6 Fusion Guns based on intended unit behavior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Stormonu wrote:
Spoiler:
 Overread wrote:
the only reason banshee didn't sell well is the duel pack they were in was the most expensive GW did and mostly had old Eldar models and then big fancy new banshee; followed up by being an expensive 5 person kit when sold on their own.

That and I think there's also the lack of hype. It's 1 new kit in an army that needs a LOT of new kits to rekindle existing eldar fans. That alone might have been more of an issue than the price. It's easier to soak a higher price when there's loads of new shiny things to get excited over.



I do agree Eldar need a big rework.

I wonder if the sole reason is that, despite having loads of concept designs, there's just no one in the design team who likes them enough to have done them and no management pressure to get them done. That said whilst we know that GW is often design-led we've no real idea of the internal politics of the company to say for sure. It might be plastic eldar revamps are sitting on the shelf ready to go and someone in management hates them or just never found a slot for them.


What's really odd is GW went all in on Yinnari which is basically just allied craftworld and dark eldar and yet didn't pair that with a big update. It was a lazy way to try and boost sales in both armies by selling them to the "other side" as it were.



As for Exodites I think GW only rolls them out in the hope people by lizardmen/seraphon kits to convert into Eldar riding dinosaurs. Otherwise there's no reason that they keep rolling that lore out over and over with no model delivery in decades.



I think there's a slot for Eldar, they just need someone to kick them out of the slump they are in right now at GW. As a necron player I do agree, Necrons didn't "need" the update. Its a fantastic update and I love the new sculpts and new models, but darn it Eldar want the love too.


Also, I imagine several people didn't buy the Banshees as they were waiting for the rest of the aspects to go plastic (I was one of them).

However, what's really needed is a Guilliman-sized kick in the pants. Just redoing existing sculpts isn't going to pull in those who already have full armies - you need something new. And they need to pull in someone who will champion the line - both on the model side and the rule side.

I'm thinking a return of Asurmen event. He's been gone for a bit to contemplate and decided that the eldar have fallen into stagnation that threatens them. Throws out the bad of old aspect shrines, and remolds them into improved versions of the old shrines, as well as some new.

And he's totally opposed to Ynarri, convinced the current Ynead is a Slaanish trick, and is convinced that the current torn state of the galaxy is the fault of humanity. They have to go. To create - y'know - tension.

Then, to the kits - new sculpts and options for the existing shrines. Rebuild Asurmen's shrine warriors as a new faction, but leave things open enough they can still build craftworld forces if they want.

Make each aspect kit a dual kit - to build an existing Aspect and a new type (like the Tau Fire Warrior/Breacher unit). Rebuild each existing Aspect with brand new rules and options (move the old Aspect rules to Legends?). Bring in some new Phoenix lords, to boot. And a complete reworking of the Avatar on par with a primarch. Throw in a new tank with no transport capacity that doesn't us the falcon kit.


Something like

Banshees - Sirens (melee troops)
Scorpions - Cobras (assassins)
Spiders - Krakens (assault)
Dragons - Chimera (anti-tank)
Hawks - Phoenixes (scouts)
Reapers - Hounds (ranged troops)


Oh lord no. . . Not that

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/09 04:10:06


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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PenitentJake wrote:
I'm loading up Dire Avengers because they're cheaper than Banshees and they're plastic, which means they're unlikely to be replaced. They're also troops, so there's that.

I haven't assembled or painted any CWE, but my concept flies in the face of Expert Crafters. I wanted a pure Aspect detachment- three units of Dire Avengers, three units of Banshees, Jain Zair and Asurmen; he was going to be the last model I bought in order to give GW the longest possible span of time to replace him with plastic.

And if they did, I'd be able to say I had a pure plastic Battalion of Aspect Warriors. Because of the specialized build, I'd use the Children of Khaine CW trait to add a point of damage to melee attacks on a six and the Superior Shurikens CW trait for an extra 4" range on everyone's gun. I'd kit one unit of Banshees with Slashing Impact for Mortal wounds on the charge in addition to war shout.

As for the Dire Avengers, I'd give them all Bladestorm instead of Battle Fortune for extra hits on exploding 6's and load the exarchs up with shimmer shields for the Invul.

I like this combination of CW Traits for pure Aspect Warriors better than the Biel Tan perks.

I also really like Iyanden Spirit Hosts as a second detachment to add some support for the Children of Khaine.

I'm not terribly competitive; I don't know if that would be decent on the table or not, but I like it for rule of cool. Whether it wins or not is a secondary concern.


I mean it could work in a casual/ semi competative games for sure and in smaller points games. All of that would only add up to 1.5k point . But it could literally take two redemptor dreads/ lotsa lasrifles or storm bolters to clear all of the aspects in one round of shooting+ morale. So youd need some wave serpents to hide in.

I would suggest having an autarch as well for reroll 1's.

Anyway this is the list you would run I gues?(see below)
Personally Id change up a couple of things.. But I can see it working against an average list. You can do some minor tweaks like give the Exarchs battle fortune and twin guns so they can tank for the squad if need be as in all likely hood you'd want them near Asurmen for that 4++

And Id run hunters of ancient relics with so many banshees. Potentially it would double their attack output. Also put a bunch of the DA in DS to keep them coming into the meat grinder and prevent them from getting shot T1.

I like the concept. I was thinking a similar list but with a horde of storm guardians and AOK for biel tan strat for funsies.

Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [90 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration [12CP] +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

Craftworld Attribute
. *Custom Craftworld*: Children of Khaine, Superior Shurikens

Detachment Command Cost

+ HQ [15 PL, 285pts] +

Asurmen [8 PL, 160pts]: 2x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, Defence Tactics, Hand of Asuryan, Shield of Grace, The Sword of Asur, Warlord

Jain Zar [7 PL, 125pts]: Acrobatic, Banshee Mask, Blade of Destruction, Cry of War Unending, Silent Death, The Storm of Silence, War Shout

+ Troops [30 PL, 690pts] +

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [5 PL, 115pts]: Defence Tactics
. 9x Dire Avenger [99pts]: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch [16pts]: Plasma Grenades, Shimmershield & Power Glaive [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

+ Elites [18 PL, 455pts] +

Howling Banshees [6 PL, 155pts]: Acrobatic, Banshee Mask
. 9x Howling Banshee [135pts]: 9x Power Sword, 9x Shuriken Pistol
. Howling Banshee Exarch [20pts]: Shuriken Pistol & Executioner [5pts]
. . Exarch Power: Decapitating Strike

Howling Banshees [6 PL, 150pts]: Acrobatic, Banshee Mask
. 9x Howling Banshee [135pts]: 9x Power Sword, 9x Shuriken Pistol
. Howling Banshee Exarch [15pts]: Mirrorswords
. . Exarch Power: Whirling Blades

Howling Banshees [6 PL, 150pts]: Acrobatic, Banshee Mask
. 9x Howling Banshee [135pts]: 9x Power Sword, 9x Shuriken Pistol
. Howling Banshee Exarch [15pts]: Mirrorswords
. . Exarch Power: Whirling Blades

+ Dedicated Transport [27 PL, 570pts] +

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 190pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Spirit Stones [10pts], Transport, Twin Aeldari Missile Launcher [40pts]

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 190pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Spirit Stones [10pts], Transport, Twin Aeldari Missile Launcher [40pts]

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 190pts]: Explodes (Hover Tank), Hover Tank, Serpent Shield, Shuriken Cannon [10pts], Spirit Stones [10pts], Transport, Twin Aeldari Missile Launcher [40pts]

++ Total: [90 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++


I think this would genuinely win if you understand how to play the missions correctly vs a lot of lists. Thats 90+ bodies to chew through and 36 T7 wounds as well from the wave serpents. Some armies would not be able to break you quick enough to stop you running away with the VP. Especialy if asurmen + banshees can go to town and plow into their side of the board capping objectives.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/09 04:30:50


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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^I think that lists worst nightmare would be devilgaunts.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Swooping Hawks just don’t do....anything, so far as I can tell.


My 2nd favorite Aspect.
But I agree, beyond just looking cool, they haven't done much since their 2e days. But when I eventually get around to pulling my CWE out of storage I'll still include them in my force.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Fire Dragons can slag vehicles well enough - but need a transport to get into effective range - but all of the transport options can serve as longer range anti-tank. All of them risk being wasted in your list if your opponent doesn’t include their Victims Of Choice.


That's literally impossible as far as I'm concerned. Much like how I play meltas in my various SM forces, I am quite content to point those fusion guns at whatever my foe brings to the table.
Their transports? I always used them in the same way I use Razorbacks. FS with a transport option.
BTW, Firedragons are my favorite of the Aspects. They look cool AND carry fusion guns.
   
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The sad thing about Eldar is that even the plastic they have is not that great. I was also browsing their range the other day and stumbled across dire Avengers. I mean,just look at that sprue. It reminds me of historical ranges today, pretty straightforward, guns for everyone, a command sprue, pay 25€, get 20-30 models. But no, not with Eldar. Pay 25€ for an outdated sprue for a squad of 5.
Banshees? I know that new sets don't hold up to the awesome things from 5th/6th Edition because of their limited poses and few options, but they could have thrown anything new in there. They made new weapons whenever they overhauled their tactical SM squad, why is that not possible for Eldar?
The only thing that really works right now is a spirit host, as the Wraiths are great, the Flyer is great, wraithlord and wraith knight are great sets and even the Spiritseer is in Plastic.
   
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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The sad thing about Eldar is that even the plastic they have is not that great. I was also browsing their range the other day and stumbled across dire Avengers. I mean,just look at that sprue. It reminds me of historical ranges today, pretty straightforward, guns for everyone, a command sprue, pay 25€, get 20-30 models. But no, not with Eldar. Pay 25€ for an outdated sprue for a squad of 5.
Banshees? I know that new sets don't hold up to the awesome things from 5th/6th Edition because of their limited poses and few options, but they could have thrown anything new in there. They made new weapons whenever they overhauled their tactical SM squad, why is that not possible for Eldar?
The only thing that really works right now is a spirit host, as the Wraiths are great, the Flyer is great, wraithlord and wraith knight are great sets and even the Spiritseer is in Plastic.


I was really hoping when they redid banshees they would let aspect warriors take weapon options but they dissapointed there... and then releasing them so overpriced and holding them hostage for a bit in that godawful box was equally insulting. You never know when a hero held hostage in a box will get its own overprixed 40-50$ box, let alone a unit, could be a month, could be a year, could be never.

Then I compare it to something like bolt action (granted not the best quality models to exist) where I can get a box of 30 german infantry for 48$ coming with a decent spread of options compared to the Cadian infantry box which is 10 for 36$.

looking at the website, cadian box comes with 10 lasguns, 2 chainsword/pistols, 2 grenade launchers, 2 flamers, 2 radios, and accessories

opening up a box of german grenadiers comes with 4 identicle sprues and a 5th sprue of bases, with a spread of Rifles, smg's, assault rifles, LMG's, panzerfauts, and rifle grenades. easy proxy for various auto guns, heavy stubbers, missile launcher teams, grenade launchers (edit, replaced heavy bolter with heavy stubber)

hell gw has proven they cant even be bothered to give a spread of the "new" thing, looking at the chaos chaincannon, getting 1 in a box was one of the most disgusting thing GW has done with a kit.

I do hope someday eldar gets the rework it deserves. the ancient model line has been one of the things that have kept me out of picking up an eldar army, that and GW being the asshats that they are over the last decade. Though i havent seriously played 40k since 5th edition since I seem to have a knack at picking armies GW deletes from the game or doesn't support after their launch

My expectation for unshelving my DE army are already abysmally low, but at least we should get a feel at how eldar will be treated in 9th with how DE is treated in the next few weeks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/09 06:45:08


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UK

I think while there have been some good points raised, if anything was to change about any of this, 9th is the Edition for it to happen. GW have already shown willingness to overhaul rules and statlines kept stagnant for near 20 years with the books released so far. The giant Necron refresh at least provides precedent for the potential happening with Craftworlds too.

Personally I'd love a big Eldar and Tyranid update at the same time, with a Battlebox and storyline focused around the Laevenir War from the rulebook. But I'm also realistic in that GW updating two Xenos lines at the same time and also doing a box for them is basically not happening.

But who knows? AOS has always been a test bed for 40K, so maybe the way its 2nd Edition has been structured points to how 9th Edition will be.

Or maybe I'm just in the bargaining/denial stage of grief.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






On the Aspect Warrior conundrum.

They, kinda like Marine Terminators, aren’t what they once were. They’ve lost their edge.

Fire Dragons still have some capacity to be nasty (certainly only a fool parks a vehicle near them). But....Wraithguard do exist. And they’re much tougher.

Striking Scorpions? Traditionally the melee bruisers. Lots of attacks, higher than army average strength. Except....Banshees now get +1 Strength from their Power Swords like everyone else. So...erm....why would I field Scorpions instead?

Certainly I feel no trepidation fighting those units, and all die more or less as easily as each other to moderately anti-infantry weapons, let alone the guff my Necrons can fart out all day long.

This is of course me looking from the outside in, so don’t take any as gospel. But on the off chance I’ve clocked an issue Eldar devotees share, you can probably say it does need addressing, and isn’t the result of “but I don’t want to have to think” type complaints.

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Nuremberg

While reading the thread, I thought an interesting idea to represent the foresight of the Eldar would be allowing them to change up the order of the phases. Do shooting or combat first, movement last, something like that.

But the issues go a lot deeper than a gimmick. I think Eldar are in one of those phases where no one at the Studio really cares about them. Since they are quite unprofessional and undisciplined it seems, they are content to allow factions to wither on the vine in that situation unfortunately.

I am building small skirmish forces for a bunch of stuff for the 40K universe at the moment, and I decided my Eldar would be of the Dark Variety. Their kits are far cheaper, mostly a lot nicer, and visually very cohesive. I really like Aspect Warriors, but from GW they are overpriced and in a poor material or REALLY overpriced and in plastic.

Dire Avengers and Banshees both are plainly just a rip off testing the waters to see how high they can push the price. No way. If I decide I want to do the Aspect Warrior force I have in mind I'll just go looking for old metals on Ebay instead.

   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Addendum.

Craftworlds still feel somewhat stuck in the Rogue Trader era, or at least the Aspects do.

See, back then and in 2nd Ed, armies were typically pretty small. Certainly blob squads of the modern day didn’t debut until 30 strong Ork Mobz in 3rd Ed.

This meant equally small but super efficient units went a long, long way. Every squad deleted from your opponents line was a significant gap for them to cover. Losing two in a turn could spell curtains.

Now, not so much. This alone has defanged Aspect Warriors. They can’t have the same impact they once did, and they’ve gained nothing in terms of resilience. Other armies seems to have cushioned those changes better overall.

Maybe there’s a certain amount of familiarity breeding contempt. Because Eldar haven’t really changed since I got properly started around 1995, I still know want to expect. My target prioritisation hasn’t changed - but the tools I get to implement that have broadly improved.

This all feeds into the feel of them being somewhat left behind.

What the solution is? That’s for wiser minds than myself to suggest! But there needs to be one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though increasing the range of Guardians, and letting them take a Warlock as a unit leader seems popular, and justifiably necessary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/09 09:02:18


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Of all the game companies, GW shouldn't have sculpts that are over two decades old - its embarrassing. And especially not for a faction that is one of the most iconic of the game.

The situation of the Ynnari is equally embarrassing; its the big new faction yet its codex is reduced to an article in White Dwarf? Either slap them in the Harlequin codex or select the most suitable units from all three eldar factions, give them Ynnari-specific datasheets and put them in their own codex. And what is the point of the Ynnari if one can't mix faction units in the same detachment? How are we supposed to mix it up in a "Combat Patrol" when we are only allowed one detachment? Might as well just go for one of the other three factions which do have a codex...

And for goodness sake its really no effort to introduce Ynnari to Kill Team. This really needs to happen in the next big product - whatever that might be.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
 
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