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Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Worry ye not Doc I thought you was quoting The Shirehorses

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Oh now those Braw Lads I’d quote all day!

Except probably not on Dakka. Because why is it always Dairy Lea?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m sure there was an edition beyond 2nd Ed where Warlock powers just sort of worked, with no need to roll?

I remember they weren’t terribly impressive as psychic powers went at the time, but the “always on” thing went some way to balancing that out.

For modern day Warlocks? And indeed Farseers?


Yes they could give a 5+ cover save, boost guardians to a mighty WS 3 and i5, or allow rerolls to morale, besides the heavy flamer that didn’t penetrate 3+ armor. They also cost points, sometimes considered to be too many to bother with a warlock at all.

Sorry to say the idea of having base and boosted versions seems like too much of an outlay in complexity for not very much in return.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






On your second bit, in what way?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh now those Braw Lads I’d quote all day!

Except probably not on Dakka. Because why is it always Dairy Lea?


Like Legions II and XI I suspect we'll never know, despite the contract stipulating Bree

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh now those Braw Lads I’d quote all day!

Except probably not on Dakka. Because why is it always Dairy Lea?


Like Legions II and XI I suspect we'll never know, despite the contract stipulating Bree


Fancy a brew?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





So people where talking earlier about how to give eldar farseers some dicks with fate abilities,

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/19/introducing-the-thousand-sons-infernal-masters-who-forge-unholy-pacts-with-daemonkind/

that's a new 1K sons unit that seems to be almost in that line, might be an intreasting template to see on a far seerer

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:
So people where talking earlier about how to give eldar farseers some dicks with fate abilities,

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/19/introducing-the-thousand-sons-infernal-masters-who-forge-unholy-pacts-with-daemonkind/

that's a new 1K sons unit that seems to be almost in that line, might be an intreasting template to see on a far seerer


It seems to be the eldar's lot in life to be the field in which every other army's rules gets grown....

There was a time when these were faction specific abilities and you played those factions because you like those abilities. Now it seems you never have to leave space marines to play however you like.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Hellebore wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
So people where talking earlier about how to give eldar farseers some dicks with fate abilities,

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/19/introducing-the-thousand-sons-infernal-masters-who-forge-unholy-pacts-with-daemonkind/

that's a new 1K sons unit that seems to be almost in that line, might be an intreasting template to see on a far seerer


It seems to be the eldar's lot in life to be the field in which every other army's rules gets grown....

There was a time when these were faction specific abilities and you played those factions because you like those abilities. Now it seems you never have to leave space marines to play however you like.


TBH having spellcasters with bespoke powers they can use instead is hardly some marine only thing you can also see it used in AOS.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The new Thousand Sons character is basically a refluffed chaplain/dark apostle. It is a good example of how inconsistently Deny the Witch applies to things though. Stop a psychic power from turning off overwatch? Of course! Stop a sorcerer from conjuring demons from the warp who turn off overwatch? Clearly nothing witchy to deny about that.

Honestly, giving eldar litanies wouldn't really recapture what I used to like about warlock powers. It used to be that warlock powers were always active and didn't require a psychic test. It conveyed the narrative that they were playing it safe using extremely specific and carefully regulated forms of psychic power to avoid being eaten by Slaanesh. It made sense narratively, and it gave eldar a unique mechanic. Getting off an undeniable not-psychic power on a 3+ doesn't really recpature that for me.
   
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If Kill Team 2.0 is on the same page as the Eldar Codex looks like Dire Avengers are staying at 4+. I know there was some speculation that aspects might get a bump up on Armor Save like the Incubi but perhaps not for DAs. Still hope for Striking Scoprions at least.
   
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Incubi and Scorpions are still 3+, like they always have been since 3rd edition, right?
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 The Red Hobbit wrote:
If Kill Team 2.0 is on the same page as the Eldar Codex looks like Dire Avengers are staying at 4+. I know there was some speculation that aspects might get a bump up on Armor Save like the Incubi but perhaps not for DAs. Still hope for Striking Scoprions at least.


Its likely but I dont think we should be reading too much into KT

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Moronic Maelignaci 1st Gen Aberrant






So, I know there's been a lot of talk about giving eldar certain things to make them certain things to give them the punch they need, but I wonder if perhaps some work could be done with what already exists. For example, take the Battle Focus rule: Treat all non heavy weapons as having not moved after advancing.

Now, if Eldar are supposed to be a glass cannon army that protects the glass by movement, (and I know that's been debated about whether they should be) should it not be all weapons, including heavy? And shouldn't units like say the Dark Reapers have it? Removing the heavy weapons, most of the "cannon" in the Glass Cannon idea, defangs it, making it just fast moving glass, which may hurt once but then it's over.

Now while I doubt this alone would be enough to make up the gulf, but maybe focusing on the little things could assist long enough until GeeDubs figures out what to do with the Eldar. Things like most of the Warlord traits being Meh, similar story with the relics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 13:30:43


 
   
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So there aren't a whole lot of Eldar infantry that use Heavy weapons so retooling Battle Focus to do that would actually harm the army quite a bit.

Agreed that the Warlord traits need some work.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 The Red Hobbit wrote:
So there aren't a whole lot of Eldar infantry that use Heavy weapons so retooling Battle Focus to do that would actually harm the army quite a bit.

Agreed that the Warlord traits need some work.


not really it'd just mean "all weapons act like they eldar haven't moved" TBH I don't see anything wrong with this given that ultramariens and argent shroud basicly have that version of the rule and it makes them good but not BROKEN

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Moronic Maelignaci 1st Gen Aberrant






BrianDavion wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
So there aren't a whole lot of Eldar infantry that use Heavy weapons so retooling Battle Focus to do that would actually harm the army quite a bit.

Agreed that the Warlord traits need some work.


not really it'd just mean "all weapons act like they eldar haven't moved" TBH I don't see anything wrong with this given that ultramariens and argent shroud basicly have that version of the rule and it makes them good but not BROKEN


That's basically what I mean. It's clear that as it stands GW either doesn't know what to do with CWE, or at least isn't ready to update them yet, so trying to fix the little things that hold CWE back from at least being decent. The small things that bring them from alright to meh, to even bad.
   
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I think Hobbit's point is that that change to Battle Focus wouldn't mean much of anything since it would help... literally just long rifle Rangers? Huh. Why don't Dark Reapers have Battle Focus?
   
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 Arachnofiend wrote:
I think Hobbit's point is that that change to Battle Focus wouldn't mean much of anything since it would help... literally just long rifle Rangers? Huh. Why don't Dark Reapers have Battle Focus?


It'd help guardians as well, and I have no idea why they don't. Besides that it wouldn't help them because they only have heavy weapons.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Huh. Why don't Dark Reapers have Battle Focus?
They're too cumbersome maybe, with the targetting computers and such? They wouldn't benefit from the 'moving with heavy' thing, hitting on 3+ every time anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 06:56:59


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Made in us
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 Arachnofiend wrote:
I think Hobbit's point is that that change to Battle Focus wouldn't mean much of anything since it would help... literally just long rifle Rangers? Huh. Why don't Dark Reapers have Battle Focus?

Indeed, that's what I was going for. I'm not opposed to amending Battle Focus but that change would help Rangers and I guess Heavy Weapons platforms, neither of which are good but I don't think it would do much to help the army in general. The ignore Heavy of Space Marines / Sisters, etc. is helpful for those armies who have a good selection of powerful heavy weapons, but doesn't add up to much with Eldar who have slightly more than zero heavy weapons on our infantry.

Thinking about APL in new Kill Team here's a couple ideas for Eldar.

1. Eldar Infantry can move or shoot in the movement phase and the shooting phase. This lets them play up the highly mobile aspect if they want or double up on shooting as glass cannons. Downside of course if you may end up with stationary Eldar because shooting instead of moving is too tempting to pass up and that wouldn't fit the army well.

2. Similar to a Fight Twice ability Eldar infantry have a Shoot Twice ability, so they can attack twice in the shooting phase. They can choose a new target on the 2nd round of shooting. As to why CWE would have this and not DE I suppose fluff wise this represents the extreme discipline iconic of Craftworlders on a path. Downside of course if that it doesn't benefit the stabby Aspects (or Storm Guardians) very much. Other downside is it would possibly make Eldar more shooty than Tau, and I'd hate to see that army get dunked on anymore. It also opens the floodgates to "why doesn't <insert faction/unit> get shoot twice?"


   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Wouldn't that be like a more powerful version of the Inari soul fire, specially for models like dark reapers?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Ynnari tabletop rules.

Agreed though, these rules would benefit Dark Reapers the most, which is one of the better aspects currently. Perhaps a fix to the Eldar issue would be to individually improve each of the Aspects instead of relying on a faction wide band-aid.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





I could see each Aspect getting a Strat of their own (a rubbish fix but very GW), unqualified double shoot or fight is unlikely as thats what pushed Ynnari into the most brutal nerfbatting I ever did see (yes ynnari needed a trigger but hey suicide warlocks)

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not familiar with Ynnari tabletop rules.

Agreed though, these rules would benefit Dark Reapers the most, which is one of the better aspects currently. Perhaps a fix to the Eldar issue would be to individually improve each of the Aspects instead of relying on a faction wide band-aid.


In their prior iterations Inari could proc multiple shoting and melee phases as long as they fullfiled specific requierments. Which mostly includes something being dead or killed. In its most extrem form dark eldar raven flocks and mass dark reapers were used to generate multiple shoting phases per turn. It was generally considered not healthy for the game, and GW fixed it very fast.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 The Red Hobbit wrote:
1. Eldar Infantry can move or shoot in the movement phase and the shooting phase. This lets them play up the highly mobile aspect if they want or double up on shooting as glass cannons. Downside of course if you may end up with stationary Eldar because shooting instead of moving is too tempting to pass up and that wouldn't fit the army well.

Reading the first sentence of this suggestion I thought the idea was that you could swap which phase you do the action in, so you can shoot in the movement phase but if you do so you only have the choice to move in the shooting phase. That idea is much more reasonable imo, though it'd require some testing.
   
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I was considering that at first since someone had mentioned earlier about letting Eldar move in the charge/fight phase which I thought was interesting. I think the issue with both ideas is that it would be too close to Battle Focus in 7th Ed where Eldar could move shoot move then disappear behind LOS cover. I thought the rule was fun but it definitely garnered a lot of hatred. I'm sure double shooting would also get a lot of hate too

Ynnari sound positively powerful, was that during Gathering storm just prior to the 8th launch? I remember hearing a lot about them then they completely disappeared as a faction, I guess that was due to the nerf bat.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I was considering that at first since someone had mentioned earlier about letting Eldar move in the charge/fight phase which I thought was interesting. I think the issue with both ideas is that it would be too close to Battle Focus in 7th Ed where Eldar could move shoot move then disappear behind LOS cover. I thought the rule was fun but it definitely garnered a lot of hatred. I'm sure double shooting would also get a lot of hate too

Ynnari sound positively powerful, was that during Gathering storm just prior to the 8th launch? I remember hearing a lot about them then they completely disappeared as a faction, I guess that was due to the nerf bat.



Partly nerf bat but also partly because I don't think GW knows (or if they know they haven't shown) what they want to do with the Ynnari. Right now they are this weird faction that has only 3 actual unique models, and they are all essentially special characters. There is only 1 Yncarne AFAIK.

If Ynnari are going to exist as a faction they need to get some actual models of their own and not have a list that consists of using other faction models. In terms of background, they also need better expansion and elaboration of their purpose now that their whole quest for the swords is gone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:50:06


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Move-Shoot-Move certainly has precedence for Eldar forces across other games and editions.

Yes, it can be frustrating, but they remain Eldar, and therefore prone to folding like a cheap suit when you catch them out of position.

I’d be genuinely interested to see how successful it is on the smaller 5x3 boards. With the smaller playing area, there are theoretically fewer places for them to hide, as the opponent’s troops have less distance to cover to start pincering.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Move-Shoot-Move certainly has precedence for Eldar forces across other games and editions.

Yes, it can be frustrating, but they remain Eldar, and therefore prone to folding like a cheap suit when you catch them out of position.

I’d be genuinely interested to see how successful it is on the smaller 5x3 boards. With the smaller playing area, there are theoretically fewer places for them to hide, as the opponent’s troops have less distance to cover to start pincering.


The mechanic has been tried before and 2nd edition had its "pop up" attacks, but the problem is results would vary tremendously based on the amount of terrain. Then I think the potential variance in the magnitude of the results would be an issue as people generally don't want to be on the receiving end of a crushing defeat. It would be crushing defeat for the Eldar's opponent if there were many such terrain pieces or crushing defeat for the Eldar if they were playing on Planet Bowling Ball.
   
 
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