Switch Theme:

Craftworld Eldar have the worst of it.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






How do?

So this is something I’ve been pondering for a decent while. Much as I have a personal joke opinion that Craftworld players are never satisfied, I genuinely believe they’ve had the rough of it, and possibly always have. Please note I am not an Eldar player, so please don’t think this is a wailing and gnashing of teeth from a butthurt collector.

For context, I’ve been knocking around a long old while. There for the tail end of Rogue Trader, but cut my teeth proper on 2nd Ed. I’ve also recently completed a collection of Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed Epic Space Marine books. And reading through those, it seems clear to me that Craftworlds have somewhat been left in the dust when it comes to the Citadel offerings.

How left in the dust? Well, looking at their current range using GW’s website, the only unit types not available since early Rogue Trader?

1. Phoenix Lords. Debuted in 2nd Ed
2. Warp Spiders. Debuted in 2nd Ed
3. Shining Spears. Debuted as rules in 2nd Ed, but first got models in 3rd Ed (possibly 4th Ed?)
4. Autarch. Debuted in 5th Ed (again, I think, I may be out one edition either side)
5. Wraithknight
6. Hemlock Wraithfighter
7. Crimson Hunter.

That’s it, since 1994, they’ve had very few new things added. Now, the eagle eyed among you will have noticed I’ve not included the various flavours of Grav Tank. That’s not an oversight, because those buggers have existed since at least 2nd Ed Epic - which was contemporaneous with Rogue Trader. Yes they came to 40K relatively late in the day (Falcon 2nd Ed, Prism Tank and Waveserpent 3rd/4th Ed, Nightspinner whichever Ed was in 2010ish).

The other one which is debatable is Wraithguard. As they are, they debuted in 2nd Ed. But, they’re an amalgamation of two Rogue Trader era units - the Ghost Warrior, and Spirit Warrior. But again, they were a unit choice in 2nd Ed Epic Space Marine, released around 1992, so well within Rogue Trader.

27 years, and only 7 completely new new unit options.

Yet, dear reader, they have had releases in most if not all editions. So what’s going on there then?

Well.....I can only put it as buggering about. First and foremost, 3rd Ed kicked them pretty hard. The original Aspect Warriors were replaced with frankly fugly ones, such as the Bucktooth Scorpions, and the crap looking Fire Dragons. I mean....yikes. Those were then replaced in 5th/6th with the current ones - which really aren’t terribly different from their Rogue Trader originating ones. And the poor old Warp Spiders are older than some of my friends!

They’ve never had a big range refresh. Ever. It’s all been quite the drip feed. Compare them to Necrons, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and Orks, and it’s clear they’ve just not had the same oomph put in.

The upside? To the best of my knowledge, other than the Ghost and Spirit Warriors I mentioned earlier? They’ve not had anything invalidated. If you’ve got an army gathering dust since 2nd Ed, you can field all of it in 9th Ed. But again, only because their range has been Red Headed Stepchild’d, because reasons.

And it’s all been so uneven. Current models still in service since 2nd Ed?
1. The Phoenix Lords
2. Falcon Grav Tank
3. The Avatar
4. Warp Spiders
5. Vyper Jetbike
5 and a smidge. The Jetbikes for Shining Spears
6. Certain Warlock Models.

So realistically five, counting the Phoenix Lords as a blob entry, 6 if we’re strict about the Jetbike still being in production, as it does come with all the bits for a vanilla Jetbike.

That’s...pretty shameful, GW. We’ve literally seen Jes Goodwin’s sketch books. You sold them to us. And whilst I never did grab a copy for myself, they’re a treasure trove of awesome sketches and sadly wasted potential.

If we weren’t looking at such a long period of time (quarter of a century for some models. Mmm. Shock value!), I’d suspect there was someone with a vendetta nixing their development. But the only persons still around from those days, so far as I can think, are Jes and John Blanche, neither of whom seem the type to hold back a range.

So....what is going on? Why has one of 40k’s original and iconic armies been left to wither on the vine? We know they’re popular. We know they sell pretty well as a result. So where’s their dues, let alone the studio love?

What did they do to you, GW?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

I think they're a victim of their own success. In particularly, they're a victim of the success of selling a somewhat motley collection of models as a single line of models. The Space Marine line was very kit-bashable, but the Eldar and particularly their Aspect Warrior stuff wasn't suited to the kind of collecting and kit-bashing that the SM was. I mean, there was something of an attempt to do with the Falcon what was done with the Rhino, but it never really worked out.

There's a palpable irony because kits like the Sisters of Battle Squad can build 3x the units, and the Eldar came by dual-purpose kits a little too late to really do the line any good. The sheer variety of the Eldar works against them.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





IMO one of the reasons they've never had a proper refresh is their position in 40k.

Alongside the imperium and arguably the tau (the tau have a more antagonistic relationship with the imperium because they offer membership to humans and undermine the imperium while the eldar are happy doing their own thing), they're a 'good guy' faction. That is, they're far more likely to appear on the side of the imperium than any other army.

So what this means in terms of releases is that they are unlikely to appear as an antagonist force in a starter box with marines.

Xenos armies seem to get their rebuilds when they hitch a ride to the marine wagon, which generally only happens in that antagonist spot.

As they have never in 9 editions put a non imperial (and non space marine) faction into the starter as the protagonist good guy, eldar are in perhaps the worst position than any other army in the game.

They won't ever have the spotlight and they won't ever get the shared spotlight of the antagonist of the imperium.

So GW drip feeds them between other things, releases a few things with a codex, or will have to deliberately rebuild them in a massive release independently of any other factor.

I hope we get a massive update, but they will need to deliberately engineer the space to do that, rather than just do it in association with other factions.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






That’s certainly an interesting point. And I do wonder how successfully the various Aspect Warriors could be dual-kitted and still maintain their distinctiveness from one another.

But....Guardians. Meant to be the building block, yes? Now not touching on the rules (that’s a different topic), but they’ve been around since the earliest days of 3rd Ed. Overall, I think they hold up pretty well. But, Storm Guardians still remain a separate expansion pack. Possibly the last in the game - certainly no others spring to mind.

The only thing they’ve had is a repack to 8 plus Grav Platform in the intervening time.

Let’s turn to the 2010 era, when we saw a real push toward a plasitifcation of ranges.

The Craftworld Eldar once again largely missed out. Yes, Wraithguard benefitted from it, and the Wraithlord and War Walker too.

But why didn’t the Aspect Warriors get a redo in metal then Finecast? Why have only 2 out of...erm...8 been redone in plastic to date?

They’re not only units iconic within the army, but central parts of the army. Except Swooping Hawks, who I reckon remain just as cack today as they’ve always been.

Let’s compare to Dark Eldar first.

Around 2010, they got a complete facelift. And since then, ever more of those relatively new kits have been released in plastic.

Necrons? The first Xenos range to not only receive a total facelift, but to have every option in their Codex released. All of them. And other than their special characters, no Finecast to be seen. Well. Maybe the Destroyer Lord, but that’s still a simple enough kit bash to avoid it.

Orks? Leaps and bounds ahead of Craftworld Eldar. Yes they lost a handful of units along the way, and took ages to get Clan rules back - but as a range they’ve received a lot of love over the years.

Tyranids? Three, arguably four distinct aesthetics since their debut in late Rogue Trader. I’d argue they had it the roughest in 3rd Ed, with a wholesale shift in design, and not in a good way. But ever since they’ve clawed (lol) their way back. And again, rules to one side, they’re probably tied with Necrons in terms of overall range quality.

Craftworlds just do not compare favourably. Each of their update phases, looking back, feel distinctly half arsed.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nurglitch wrote:
I think they're a victim of their own success. In particularly, they're a victim of the success of selling a somewhat motley collection of models as a single line of models. The Space Marine line was very kit-bashable, but the Eldar and particularly their Aspect Warrior stuff wasn't suited to the kind of collecting and kit-bashing that the SM was. I mean, there was something of an attempt to do with the Falcon what was done with the Rhino, but it never really worked out.

There's a palpable irony because kits like the Sisters of Battle Squad can build 3x the units, and the Eldar came by dual-purpose kits a little too late to really do the line any good. The sheer variety of the Eldar works against them.


The Falcon and Fire Prism are basically just weapon swaps (and transport capability). The Nightspinner was just a weapons swap, while retaining the transport capability (Why would a player want an artillery piece meant to hang back, transporting troops around?)

The ultimate reason is because GW have had the theme of the Craftworld Eldar get eroded over the many editions and though they have always been competitive from a few overpowered units each edition, as a whole the army has trouble having a theme. Their original thing of speed got taken in theory by the Dark Eldar. Their high tech long range firepower by the Tau. Their psychic dominance is contested by Tzeentch, and all the anti-psyker stuff out there. Is it short to medium range shredding firepower? There was a time with the Windriders and their scatter lasers but that time has gone. Even when there is an unexpected update like Jain Zar and the new Banshees, it doesn't change the overall lack of vision for the army as a whole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 21:41:48


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






I love Eldar, and they are my favorite race (and i have about 4,000 points of them still from back in the 2nd edition era).

But I also think Eldar are in need of more than just a model refresh. Looking a lot of the other armies at this point, the Eldar I feel really lack character. Part of the that is the models, but part of it comes down to things like unit customization and wargear, and what that means in turns for kit basing and models. I also don't know how you change that without disrupting things too much. But I had a few thoughts...

The lore talks about the various aspect paths, and how many warrior walk multiple paths. What if units of aspect warriors worked such that you could run a "pure" aspect list, but could also make hybrid aspect units. Imagine warp spider jump generators coupled to a striking scorpion close combat kit. Or swooping dragons, etc. I think there could be some opportunity to make units more customizable and unique and shake up the static nature of the eldar units.

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.





Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





We can hope that when the new Dex comes, they'll get something... Hoping the minimum = one character and one unit. Until recently, I would have believed more in this than I currently do; but the treatment of DE has eroded the faith. I now believe that everything we needed to know was in the trailer video: it contained SM, Sisters and Guard vs. Crons.

And there folks, are the four factions scheduled for BIG releases this edition. Everyone else will get something, but those four factions were the poster children for the edition, and they are the ones who are getting range refreshes or large second wave releases. Crons and Marines have already had their huge waves, though there is some stuff still trickling for them. We know Sisters are getting the Palatine and the Paragon, minimally; the preview that showed us the Paragon made a few references to a big wave for Sisters

And guard are the Wildcard- there, but distant enough that we don't even have rumours yet.

The optimist in me, who somehow still hasn't been strangled by the cynic, says, "But wait a minute- if those were the big four, and two have already almost been done... With Sisters looking to be on the way soon, there's gotta be a few more big splashes before the inevitable 10th edition."

And I hope the optimist turns out to be right. It's still early in the edition, and once we get Covid/ Brexit under control, there will be an unprecedented boom. There is a lot to be gained for GW by really fixing all four existing Eldar factions. And given that they've brought the four factions so much closer together via the whole Ynarri plot, I think that IF it comes, it's going to be a race update including some content for all four of the factions.

And that would go some distance toward explaining the sparsity of the DE release. Because maybe GW planned it that we would get our Vect, Truborn and Blood Brides in the same splash that gives the Avatar and the Aspect Warriors for CWE, a Great Harlequin and bespoke wraithlord acrobat for the Quins, and bespoke Aspect + Troops choice + Transport for Ynarri.

Now obviously, that's a pipe dream. But if we even get half of those things, the point will still stand.

Marine stuff is almost done- I mean obviously, it'll never really end... But it's getting ready to shift so that Marine releases will become occasional while another faction- or hopefully several factions catch up a bit.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 22:08:59


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mezmorki wrote:
I love Eldar, and they are my favorite race (and i have about 4,000 points of them still from back in the 2nd edition era).

But I also think Eldar are in need of more than just a model refresh. Looking a lot of the other armies at this point, the Eldar I feel really lack character. Part of the that is the models, but part of it comes down to things like unit customization and wargear, and what that means in turns for kit basing and models. I also don't know how you change that without disrupting things too much. But I had a few thoughts...

The lore talks about the various aspect paths, and how many warrior walk multiple paths. What if units of aspect warriors worked such that you could run a "pure" aspect list, but could also make hybrid aspect units. Imagine warp spider jump generators coupled to a striking scorpion close combat kit. Or swooping dragons, etc. I think there could be some opportunity to make units more customizable and unique and shake up the static nature of the eldar units.

Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game. They are close range units but get slaughtered in close combat - making them very risky (and not at all lore aligned) to use. something needs to be done with them too.


Guardians are a relic from when the Imperial Guardsman was supposedly the standard of comparison. Due to Marine focus over the editions, that has shifted to MEQ. Guardians are to Guardsman like WHFB Elves were to Humans. Basically baseline humans with +1 Ld and +1 WS/BS. Unfortunately if the metric is against MEQ, that just doesn't cut it anymore. Even against Guardsman they don't really cut it, since Guardsman got Orders (which I have never been a fan of, from the moment they were first introduced).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/08 22:13:31


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Early on Eldar were pretty clearly the developers' favorite faction; they got the cool stuff and the cool rules and the cool fluff. They were the closest thing to "good guys" in the setting. Along with Space Marines, they were one of the two preeminent factions; Space Marines were the noob faction that were just brute strength that got people into the IP, and then Eldar were what the cool kids in the know moved on to, because they had the neat tricks and wicked, if fragile, toys.

At some point, that favoritism ended, and they've never recovered since, because the developers have never known what to do with them since. I guess there's a certain irony there, since their placement in 40k overall mirrors their backstory - once dominant, now only a pale shadow of their former selves. They remained very strong rules-wise right up until the release of 9th, but it was largely on the back of a few overpowered units in each edition, with the rest of the army being junk, which is a sure sign of an army the developers don't know what to do with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 22:18:39


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I do agree they need work beyond the models, but as I’m not up on the main rules, let alone specific armies, it’s not something I felt able to weigh in on.

Certainly I don’t recall a time when Craftworlds were considered weak as such - but my impression is that’s more down to specific borken builds than a solid core book? Spamming certain units, as opposed to the current Necron Codex where pretty much anything can be included, and still produce some form of workable army?

I feel Guardians could find their feet again if they could be lead by a Warlock. With psychic powers for the unit, you could better tailor them to a role, either supporting your preference in Aspect Warriors, or covering a skills gap left by your preference in Aspect Warriors? Oh, and bump the Shuriken Catapult to 18”, yeah? They were terror weapons in 2nd Ed (better than a Storm Bolter), but in the modern game, the 12” might as well be Harsh Language.

But rules buffing is merely one sliver of the wider problem they face.

They feel old and tired to my mind. I like their models well enough (there’s certainly none I look at an think “urgh”), but I just don’t feel inspired by them. They’ve not had anything that’s made me go “well, looks like I’m starting Craftworld Eldar!”

It’s all....well, I think the word might be “patchy”. Like three smaller forces crudely welded into one (Aspect heavy, Guardian heavy, Wraith Construct heavy), and somehow feeling lesser than the sum of its parts?

Again, I’m not an Eldar player, so please do take what I post with a pinch of salt. If an opinion expressed seems controversial, please be assured it’s not intentional. I’m not looking to provoke any specific reaction.

I think it really is the lack of a Wow Factor. I get that nebulous and highly subjective thing from Dark Eldar - it’s all sleek, but deadly looking. Minimalist yet distinctly pointy spiky. And that very much is an army of three distinct flavours masquerading as one force - but thanks to being redesigned from the ground up all at once, it works. Warriors, Wyches and Wracks all look visually distinct, but clearly belong to the same design language.

Compare to Guardians, Aspects and Wraiths. That unity just isn’t as apparent. Now that might be down to the Aspects in particular, and their colour scheme being Temple rather than Craftworld based. That made them visually interesting in Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed, as armies were much smaller. But in the sprawling size of the current day, it’s perhaps more visually confusing?

Again I’m really sorry if this comes across as me pooping on Craftworld Eldar. I swear I’m not!

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
Early on Eldar were pretty clearly the developers' favorite faction; they got the cool stuff and the cool rules and the cool fluff. They were the closest thing to "good guys" in the setting. Along with Space Marines, they were one of the two preeminent factions.

At some point around 3rd edition or so, that ended, and they've never recovered since, because the developers have never known what to do with them since. I guess there's a certain irony there, since their placement in 40k overall mirrors their backstory - once dominant, now only a pale shadow of their former selves.


Starting point might be to finally recognize they messed up with the 3rd edition catapult. A 12" range is cripplingly short range and one extra S4 shot doesn't make up for it. The fact Avengers got a range boost to 18" was a silent admission of the problem.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




One thing I'd love to ask someone at GW is why they effectively abandoned the Ynnari thing. It seemed like they had finally decided to shake things up for the Eldar by unifying them into one superfaction...but then they backed off again, made Ynnari irrelevant from a rules perspective, and now seem to pretty much pretend like the whole thing never happened.

It was the first hint in a long time of them paying any real attention to Eldar...and it ended in such a damp squib.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm not sure about lacking character. If they lack characters its because - like basically Marines and *maybe* (sorry not sorry) Orks - they've got a big enough range to have a crack at everything (whether the rules support it or not is a different matter). Ironically given 8th edition, I feel you can make an army reflecting any of the major Craftworlds that has a clear "I see what you did there" apart from Alaitoc (fear ranger spam I guess).

By comparison Codex: Venom Spam and Codex: Riptide Spam perhaps have a tighter theme, but only because... you are reduced to a relatively small number of things.

My suspicion is that CWE were going to be Ynnarified like Primaris, but then GW got cold feet. And now they aren't quite sure what to do. But hey, maybe late 2021, or early 2022 could be Eldar's big year.

As have said repeatedly over the years, couldn't really care less about new Striking Scorpions or Dark Reapers. Have to admit a New Avatar of Khaine of comparable scale to that new Belakor model though? It could be like the 90s all over again.
   
Made in ro
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

yukishiro1 wrote:
One thing I'd love to ask someone at GW is why they effectively abandoned the Ynnari thing.


I would also love to know, if only so that I could buy whoever made the decision a beer.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Ynnari have an AoS feel to them in my opinion. As in, they’re awaiting their slot in the narrative before really coming into their own.

But for now, I agree they definitely feel symptomatic of Craftworld Eldar’s slightly half arsed air.

My fear though is they’ll become a fourth full Eldar Faction (which would be cool), entirely at the expense of the Original getting their time in the sun.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Lately I've been infected by Wraith Host mania.

When I learned that Hemlock Wraithfighters were psychic constructs, it kinda blew my lid. And with the addition of Fliers to standard detachments, I can fit a Hemlock just about anywhere.

I loved the pre-nerf Wraithseer, and initially hated the new version until I read the Goonhammer review. As it stands, I'd field them just for rule of cool.

I'm not investing in Eldar anytime soon, but I did recently get Blood of the Phoenix and a box of Dire Avengers, so I have a bit of a core stashed away if GW puts effort into the range.

Obsec is an issue with a Wraith Host.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Exodites are coming, they'll be an AoS army in 40k basically. Mark my words. Craftworld Eldar likely won't get another model.

Personally though I'd love to see the army go more back to it's 2nd/3rd ed roots, with the Eldar more varied in terms of appearance, far far more organic looking wraithbone (they've gotten awfully techy looking over the years), bring back the exotic furs and corsair greatcoats.

Most importantly though Warlocks as squad leaders for guardians again, actually makes them an interesting unit.

Also goes without saying, shuriken cannons to become d2, starcannons to go back to 3 shots like the glory days, and just much moah psyker. Really though I think they need to figure some kind of real replacement for move-shoot-move, they kind of don't work without it.

Alas, I think my time relying on gw is done, don't with WFB anymore and the hobby's better than ever, with a great community uber hobby focussed. Kind of want that to happen with 40k too.

p.s. I'm genuinely serious about the Exodites. Prepare yourselves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/08 22:39:54


 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

 Mezmorki wrote:
Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game.


This is like, really not reflective of reality at all. Ulthwe is probably the most popular Craftworld for people to collect and you ain't collecting Ulthwe unless you buy in to their Lore and their Guardians. If anything, from a conceptual standpoint, Guardians are one of the strongest things in all of Craftworld Lore and are actually the prime example of the "Ordinary Heroism" trope within the setting. Unlike Guardsmen they aren't forcibly conscripted and brainwashed with endless propaganda, with trillions upon trillions more waiting to take their place should they die. Neither are they born into their role which is only reinforced further with endless indoctrination and propaganda, like Fire Warriors or Sororitas. They willingly and voluntarily take up arms to fight the worst horrors the entire galaxy has to offer, with full and terrible knowledge of what happens to them should they fail and/or die in a way that prevents their Spirit Stone from being recovered. People love that.

Where they fall down is their old models. Which people end up being 50/50 on. I've had equal numbers of people say how much they adore the models despite them being near 20 years old, I've also heard them be the main reason people don't want to collect Eldar; because they're old and because said person would feel like wanting to take them.

Now, from a gameplay perspective what you said is absolutely true and as others have mentioned many of their stats are emblematic of legacy issues that plague a lot of armies and units. Lorewise they're a fairly defensive unit, and one that Eldar commanders would not want to throw away in risky attacks or suicide moves. Yet in-game this is how they're played because a 12" Assault 2 gun was good in 3rd Edition, but fething sucks in present rules.

It also doesn't help that overall, CWE have lost rules and mechanics whereas every other army has gained them. Ork Boyz have lost their AP they used to have in 3rd, but they've also gained Mob Rule, Ere' We Go, Dakka Dakka Dakka and Green Tide. All Eldar units have lost stuff like Fleet of Foot and important stats like I and old-WS and basically gained nothing in return. Wow, advancing and shooting assault weapons without penalty and a useless rule against a faction that realistically is like 5% of the game. Brilliant. Remember when all Marines had was ATSKNF? Now look at just the core rules they get. Battle Focus just can't compete on its own.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 harlokin wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
One thing I'd love to ask someone at GW is why they effectively abandoned the Ynnari thing.


I would also love to know, if only so that I could buy whoever made the decision a beer.


I mean I don't disagree on the substance of keeping the factions separate. But the point is that it was the first attention that had been paid to the faction in a long time, and now it seems like the whole thing was basically a narrative dead-end except for rezzing Super Hero Smurf Dude (which is an almost perfect metaphor for modern 40k generally - Xenos just get to be NPC bit players whose greatest aspiration is to get to be useful to the Super Chads before going back into the dustbin of history).
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






On the loss of Fleet of Foot etc?

Something we saw as very Elven and Eldar in naval games is move-shoot-move, or move-move-shoot (but possibly not shoot-move-move?).

Would that help them any in 40K?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ynnari have an AoS feel to them in my opinion. As in, they’re awaiting their slot in the narrative before really coming into their own.

But for now, I agree they definitely feel symptomatic of Craftworld Eldar’s slightly half arsed air.

My fear though is they’ll become a fourth full Eldar Faction (which would be cool), entirely at the expense of the Original getting their time in the sun.


This is an issue with Ynnari and a lot of AOS factions in that, they're so focused on being part of an ongoing narrative, that GW doesn't bother to actually flesh them out and make them feel like a real civilization/organisation/country (choose whichever, depending on faction)

The most compelling and interesting part of Ynnari is: how do they even live their daily lives? What does Ynnari society look like? How do they live? Where do they live? What does a Ynnari civilian do?

We know the answers to these questions for Craftworld and Drukhari, we even know lots of these things for Corsairs and Exodites, neither of which really exist anymore in real terms. Even Harlequins have some of this stuff expanded and explained, despite being mostly kept as a mysterious force.

But GW have expanded on none of this for Ynnari. Instead they're a narrative-focused faction, revolving entirely around 3 named characters, a vague concept of "hope" and an impossible goal to achieve. Why should I give a gak about that? This is an issue that is going to catch up to AOS eventually too and kind of already limits the appeal of some of its factions. You need to give me actual reasons to care about the faction in order to be invested in it. Hell, even in battlefield terms its all still really vague and I'm still unclear as to how Spirit Stones, Drukhari life leeching and Cegorach's protection even work or apply with them. What is a Guardian Defender or Kabalite Warrior within the context of a Ynnari army? Instead we just get vague gak about "oooooh the powers of death swirl around them and give them power" yeah okay cool dude but how is a Ynnari army actually organised? That's what people are actually here for.
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.

I think the problem is that no one at GW has been able to follow on the original designs Jes Goodwin set down for the race.

Perhaps it is time to fracture the craftworlds monolith appearance (& traits) so they inject some new units and aesthetics into the line.

It never ends well 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I’ve a differing opinion on the AoS side of things, but that’s of course a different topic.

Ynnari? I think they more need to be a Cult, rather than a society. A semi-proscribed religious order, rather than a people unto themselves - at least at this stage. There is a clear potential for real world religious allegory, but let’s agree that bit isn’t really for Dakka!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Y’know. I am going to weigh in on the rules side after all. Not in a tier way, or offering fixes way. But in a comparing of development way.

Now, I have of course said I’m not familiar with the current game, let alone Craftworld Eldar specifically. So have your salt at the ready. Hell, grab some Tequila and Lime wedges whilst your at it, make a party of it. Maybe don’t take a shot every time I say something wrong though!

But rules wise, Craftworlds have been very, very staid and stagnant.

Now. A chunk of that in my mind is a relic of the 3rd Ed gutting of psychic powers. Sure, things were super daft in 2nd Ed, but it was like finding your stock liquid too salty, so just using water instead.

Aspects are probably the worst example of stagnant rules. They’re all so settled in their niche, they don’t do anything particularly interesting. I’d say Dark Reapers have suffered the most. They used to be super accurate support units. In 3rd, and for a while after, they just became Marine Deleters, and poorly suited to anything else (not enough shots or models for hordes, not enough Strength to worry vehicles). Swooping Hawks just don’t do....anything, so far as I can tell. Fire Dragons can slag vehicles well enough - but need a transport to get into effective range - but all of the transport options can serve as longer range anti-tank. All of them risk being wasted in your list if your opponent doesn’t include their Victims Of Choice.

For pre-arranged games, that’s perhaps mitigated if you’re fortunate enough to be able to afford a wide collection. But for Tournaments, where you really don’t know who you’ll be matched against, it seems like you risk hobbling yourself.

I dunno. Everything about the Craftworlds just feels somewhat disjointed. And as such, interesting builds are limited to just spamming certain units, rather than building a force which reflects the background and can more or less hold its own on the field of battle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/08 23:11:12


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.


If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






 Dysartes wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
It's odd that the race based on fantasy elves gets so little love in Sci-Fi.


If you think that's bad, wait till we tell you what happened to the Dwarves In Spaaaaace....


Actually planning a three on that very subject

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Aspects are probably the worst example of stagnant rules. They’re all so settled in their niche, they don’t do anything particularly interesting. I’d say Dark Reapers have suffered the most. They used to be super accurate support units. In 3rd, and for a while after, they just became Marine Deleters, and poorly suited to anything else (not enough shots or models for hordes, not enough Strength to worry vehicles). Swooping Hawks just don’t do....anything, so far as I can tell. Fire Dragons can slag vehicles well enough - but need a transport to get into effective range - but all of the transport options can serve as longer range anti-tank. All of them risk being wasted in your list if your opponent doesn’t include their Victims Of Choice.

For pre-arranged games, that’s perhaps mitigated if you’re fortunate enough to be able to afford a wide collection. But for Tournaments, where you really don’t know who you’ll be matched against, it seems like you risk hobbling yourself.

I dunno. Everything about the Craftworlds just feels somewhat disjointed. And as such, interesting builds are limited to just spamming certain units, rather than building a force which reflects the background and can more or less hold its own on the field of battle.


This is an interesting point though. The background on Eldar is that the farseers largely know what will happen ahead of time and therefore the very limited Eldar forces can be chosen specifically for the mission. Eldar should never have to build a take all comers force, because they should know ahead of time what they will be facing and can cannon up accordingly. This is a logistics and strategic maneuverability issue out with the ability of 40k to address.

To be true to the ethos of eldar, the players really need a stratagem that allows them to basically tailor their force after they know what their opponent has taken. I dont see this as being likely to ever be implemented as it would require all.Eldar players to basically have multiple sets of each possible unit to counter all of the things they might come up against. It also runs the risk of the pre-game time being radically extended while the eldar player peruses the list and fiddles.

On the wider point of the thread, I wonder if eldar suffer from having a very early extensive set of models that, in my opinion, absolutely smashed aesthetics and design space out of the park. GW tried to refresh them as has been mentioned but utterly failed in translating the aesthetic and then reverted back to something very close to the original. It's possible GW just doesnt want to open themselves up to mucking about with what are already nice models. So they test the waters occasionally, leaving everyone unsatisfied.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Craftworld Eldar need the ground up redo Necrons recently got.
Hell they need it more than Necrons even did.

The fact that 75% of the Eldar range still hasn't made it to plastic, while Space Marines are rounding out their 2nd complete plastic army is goddamn absurd.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 dan2026 wrote:
Craftworld Eldar need the ground up redo Necrons recently got.
Hell they need it more than Necrons even did.

The fact that 75% of the Eldar range still hasn't made it to plastic, while Space Marines are rounding out their 2nd complete plastic army is goddamn absurd.


The thing is....with space marines they did the whole make them bigger thing and it required some pretty epic fluff gymnastics, with necrons, well they're machines so just add newer bigger machines. But Eldar....well you can just redo the aspects in plastic, but I suspect that's not an attractive prospect to them, and it seems the new banshees didn't sell as well as they'd hoped. You can't just make new bigger but different versions of the aspects with new names as they are fundamentally linked and described in the fluff, so I guess you could make new aspects, but then the fluff justification is tricky (I guess they did it with shadow spectres), and you're still left with the old metal/resin ones, and what do you do with those? Write them out of the lore? There's quite a lot of vehicle options, but they've actually reduced the options there significantly with forgeworld cutting back so much.

I agree the lack of support Eldar has gotten is absurd, especially when you consider how well they've sold over their lifetime, but I just really can't see GW redoing that many non power armoured models unfortunately, the problems become too big, easier for them to cut their losses and start something new (Exodites). Sisters of battle are a way for them to reach a new audience, necrons were in the starter box so had to be fleshed out. I'm afraid there isn't much love left for the Eldar at GW, I mean look at their rules, they're a half arsed joke. Maybe I'm just trying to lower my expectations, but it seems pretty rational to me.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

the only reason banshee didn't sell well is the duel pack they were in was the most expensive GW did and mostly had old Eldar models and then big fancy new banshee; followed up by being an expensive 5 person kit when sold on their own.

That and I think there's also the lack of hype. It's 1 new kit in an army that needs a LOT of new kits to rekindle existing eldar fans. That alone might have been more of an issue than the price. It's easier to soak a higher price when there's loads of new shiny things to get excited over.



I do agree Eldar need a big rework.

I wonder if the sole reason is that, despite having loads of concept designs, there's just no one in the design team who likes them enough to have done them and no management pressure to get them done. That said whilst we know that GW is often design-led we've no real idea of the internal politics of the company to say for sure. It might be plastic eldar revamps are sitting on the shelf ready to go and someone in management hates them or just never found a slot for them.


What's really odd is GW went all in on Yinnari which is basically just allied craftworld and dark eldar and yet didn't pair that with a big update. It was a lazy way to try and boost sales in both armies by selling them to the "other side" as it were.



As for Exodites I think GW only rolls them out in the hope people by lizardmen/seraphon kits to convert into Eldar riding dinosaurs. Otherwise there's no reason that they keep rolling that lore out over and over with no model delivery in decades.



I think there's a slot for Eldar, they just need someone to kick them out of the slump they are in right now at GW. As a necron player I do agree, Necrons didn't "need" the update. Its a fantastic update and I love the new sculpts and new models, but darn it Eldar want the love too.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Bosskelot wrote:
 Mezmorki wrote:
Another issue, IMHO, are guardians. I think part of what gets people excited about a faction is how cool, fun, exciting, inspiring their basic troop choices are. Guardians are about the least interesting unit in the game.


This is like, really not reflective of reality at all. Ulthwe is probably the most popular Craftworld for people to collect and you ain't collecting Ulthwe unless you buy in to their Lore and their Guardians. If anything, from a conceptual standpoint, Guardians are one of the strongest things in all of Craftworld Lore and are actually the prime example of the "Ordinary Heroism" trope within the setting. Unlike Guardsmen they aren't forcibly conscripted and brainwashed with endless propaganda, with trillions upon trillions more waiting to take their place should they die. Neither are they born into their role which is only reinforced further with endless indoctrination and propaganda, like Fire Warriors or Sororitas. They willingly and voluntarily take up arms to fight the worst horrors the entire galaxy has to offer, with full and terrible knowledge of what happens to them should they fail and/or die in a way that prevents their Spirit Stone from being recovered. People love that.

Where they fall down is their old models. Which people end up being 50/50 on. I've had equal numbers of people say how much they adore the models despite them being near 20 years old, I've also heard them be the main reason people don't want to collect Eldar; because they're old and because said person would feel like wanting to take them.

Now, from a gameplay perspective what you said is absolutely true and as others have mentioned many of their stats are emblematic of legacy issues that plague a lot of armies and units. Lorewise they're a fairly defensive unit, and one that Eldar commanders would not want to throw away in risky attacks or suicide moves. Yet in-game this is how they're played because a 12" Assault 2 gun was good in 3rd Edition, but fething sucks in present rules.

It also doesn't help that overall, CWE have lost rules and mechanics whereas every other army has gained them. Ork Boyz have lost their AP they used to have in 3rd, but they've also gained Mob Rule, Ere' We Go, Dakka Dakka Dakka and Green Tide. All Eldar units have lost stuff like Fleet of Foot and important stats like I and old-WS and basically gained nothing in return. Wow, advancing and shooting assault weapons without penalty and a useless rule against a faction that realistically is like 5% of the game. Brilliant. Remember when all Marines had was ATSKNF? Now look at just the core rules they get. Battle Focus just can't compete on its own.


I like this post. I think it hits a lot sticking points.
The core rules for the army are just terrible. You get battle focus.. Aaand thats it. Battlefocus which only works on T3 1 infantry (aspects and guardians) and bikes (T4 2W)..
Apart from that you get nothing... Its not even a buff really.. its just something that makes the 12" basic gun functionable..

Of course we had a PA updated traits which although interesting, only really give you one option: Expert crafters. Ironicaly its a trait marines of a green colour once had... funny that... So you pick that every time becasue its an auto take and pick something else for flavour and that's it. The faction only has 6 generic warlord traits and the same one or two relics for years..

This brings me to the clutch issue of having design space Erroded away by marines and other factions. All of the things that specific Eldar units used to be really good at, taken away to fuel the "uniqueness" of other factions. So here we are with 12" guardian bodies as our core... Costing nearly as many pts as 4/5 of a basic marine for most of the edition thus far.

All of the rules that any Eldar thing gets there is something that just does it better elsewhere.. Want heavy hitting heavy infantry ? There's things like gravis and terminators that make wraith constructs look pedestrian with heir eyewatering traits, warlord traits, auras, psychic powers, rules and starts combos....

Psychic might of the Eldar? Please... a tzeenchan sorcerer or a shiny Space marine librarian gets to cast better then Eldrad. You know Eldrad. The millennia old Farseer who is the most powerful psyker in the galaxy.. Apparently.. Yeh that guy.

And here lies the problem. There just doesn't seem to be unwillingness to put the work in and write the rules that make the army work.. The imperial Armour is just another example... Exarch powers were actually a good idea. It needed work but it was a good idea. But no. Lets abandon it entirely..

We have just gone through two years of 2 marine codexes and 2 sets of supplements.. You telling me nobody at GW knows how to write good/ varied rules for a faction to make them specialise at certain things..? Where is my saim-hann/jetbikes rules? Wraith host rules.. just look at the Iyanded traits... We have had multiple threads and topics over the last few years since ive been hobbying people lamenting how bland the CWE rules are (bland does not mean not effective). Some random posters ona forum can come up with bucket load of ideas of the cuff in an afternoon... But paid game developers/ rules team cant figure it out? I don't buy it. I think its a top down decisions to actively ignore the faction in favour of other stuff. I guess people att he top are butt hurt over loosing to some eldar cheese back in the day.. Dunno.

And don't even get me started on the Failcast choice of models and the whole BOTP debacle.... Not only are the rules bad for most units the fact is that youd have to more likely than not use failcast models which is just something that auto -repels peaople.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/03/09 00:46:20


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: