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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





StraightSilver wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 kodos wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I mean, that's just wrong. It is not the case that making money automatically disqualifies one from a fair dealing claim under UK law, any more than it disqualifies one from a fair use claim under US law.

but it makes it much much easier to claim that the original owner of the IP lost income

if it is for free, harder to claim that people would have paid for it if made by the IP owner

if the others make money with something like Patreon, you even have a number to show your losses


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Lord Zarkov wrote:

It’s to avoid things like Nazi Guardsmen,

Um, GW themselves have already done this. Who, pray tell, do you think the Steel Legion is modeled after? It's a fallschirmjäger wearing a British gas mask.

which is still different from showing up with swatiska or SS symbols on your minis


Have you looked at the very basic symbol of the Imperium, the Aquilla? That's the Nazi Eagle, just Legally Distinct.


The very fact that's officially known as an Aquilla means it is a Roman Eagle, not a Nazi one.

I know the Nazis did stylise themselves on the Roman Empire but the fact that the 40k Aquilla has 2 heads and is stylistically different means it isn't a Nazi Eagle.

It supposed to infer a fascist, totallitarian regime so obviously will draw parallels, but it isn't specifically a Nazi symbol. And sci-fi uses eagles to represent bad guys all the time, it isn't distinct to 40K.

And single and 2 headed eagles are common in the real world - they aren't all Nazi flags.


In fact the dobule headed eagle is specificly noted as being a charge associated with empire. Notable empires that used one in their hereldry are:

the Byzentine empire, Serbia, Russia, Albania and the Holy Roman Empire.

of course there's some similarity between the nazi eagle and the IoM eagle, but that's more because they where drawing on similer sources (the HRE and the roman empire) I suspect then GW drawing on Nazi imagry

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 10:46:20


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Have you looked at the very basic symbol of the Imperium, the Aquilla? That's the Nazi Eagle, just Legally Distinct.

not even close, the Aquila has more in common the Doppeladler than with the Reichsadler

Reichsadler WW2
Spoiler:


Doppeladler
Spoiler:




40k
Spoiler:


and the double eagle is a license free symbol, no need to make it legally distinct (but unique for their IP)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 10:50:45


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Alfa posted an update of sorts on the YT releases of the Part 30 of TTS (I've taken out the episode spoilers):
Spoiler:
I want to address some things for those who want to know;

This wasn't, and isn't, supposed to be the end.
Just as a spoiler for what was supposed to come next so I don't leave anyone suffering for however long;

The third part will not be released despite it honestly being quite close to finished.
It was meant to be released about a month after the release of this part but my son was born so I kind of had to take a break...
But with the situation now, other than needing to focus on starting up new projects and the lack of motivation,
it also, in a horrible way, felt kind of apt to end it here. Sorry.

This is all going to be on hiatus until we see the zero-tolerance policy altered and until we see ourselves not entirely attached onto a single license as we have been.
This was not a smart thing. It never was.

Now, EP30 Part 1 and 2 have existed on Patreon (for free) for a few months now, as you can see on the upload date.
The reason why I hadn't uploaded them publicly earlier is because the plan was to start experimenting with Part releases on Patreon (again, for free, no paywalling) and then transition into doing it on YouTube. I know many tend to be averse to change, so I didn't want to start releasing significantly shorter pieces of a full episode all willy-nilly.
But now, change has become the norm on this channel so, like, yknow... feth it.

If you want to see what will be worked on next, I will try to be very transparent about my working process and posting regular updated on Patreon (for free).
Transparency is important. I don't want this whole stunt to look like a grift for money. I honestly expected everything to drop across the board after this announcement due to sheer disinterest. I had made my peace with that.
The fact that the Patreon instead fething exploded has shocked and straight up frightened me and it has made my need to perform scream like a giant bat.

So, I want to do my best with it and I desperately hope people don't look at this and see it as me trying to scam people because fething GOD NO I want to make internet videos not dedicate myself to a state-of-the-art fraud scheme holy gak

Nevertheless, a huge thank you to everyone who has stuck with us throughout the years, and I am sorry about this mess, I truly do hate it and we just want to move on from it now.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles






 kodos wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I mean, that's just wrong. It is not the case that making money automatically disqualifies one from a fair dealing claim under UK law, any more than it disqualifies one from a fair use claim under US law.

but it makes it much much easier to claim that the original owner of the IP lost income

if it is for free, harder to claim that people would have paid for it if made by the IP owner

if the others make money with something like Patreon, you even have a number to show your losses


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Lord Zarkov wrote:

It’s to avoid things like Nazi Guardsmen,

Um, GW themselves have already done this. Who, pray tell, do you think the Steel Legion is modeled after? It's a fallschirmjäger wearing a British gas mask.

which is still different from showing up with swatiska or SS symbols on your minis

What is wrong with that? Honestly are we at a point to where nazis are Voldemort and they cannot be named or pictured in toys or games? There is a very big difference between someone having a themed army and someone preaching nazism. I will gladly play against nazi guardsmen, vietcong tau, soviet orks, and american astartes without a second thought because themed armies are cool and its just a game. If someone is being a jerk with their words and actions, their army could be unpainted and it is still their behavior that makes me not want to play them. Would you really turn down Wolfenstein Admech because ERMAGERD NAZIS?

Either way the point is moot because GW will have a really fun time trying to actually provide tangible damages caused by offensive content unless the person claims it is official GW content which is a libel/defamation issue because its inherently false. GW is overreaching and the burden of proof should highlight it for you. Especially when the atrocities committed by basically every major race except maybe the Tau are infinitely worse than what real humans have done. There were implied 'pleasure' slave miniatures for the Dark Eldar that were available on the webstore until recently and those are official minis.

As a side note, it is kind of amusing that even GW's legal team sucks at writing clear cut rules so their fans are stuck trying to divine their intentions. It is just unfortunate that their history of ruthless enforcement combined with an open ended policy (legal or not) is why we can't have nice things.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
Alfa posted an update of sorts on the YT releases of the Part 30 of TTS (I've taken out the episode spoilers):


Yep. He ended up getting another kind of Sword of Damocles with this unexpected success on Patreon instead of getting rid of the previous one...

This update is interesting as it puts light on other details, like his lack of motivation recently and the half-words admitting it was kinda his wish to indeed do something else than Warhammer, updated GW guidelines or not.

It comforts me on what I thought about this whole situation ; genuine guy, but it wasn't just his fears about GW that motivated him to make this decision. It simply came at a convenient time to take the jump.

And yeah, it was to be expected he'll get some flack because of his own success on Patreon. That's why this whole buzz is complete gak.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 15:20:18


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

 DominayTrix wrote:

What is wrong with that? Honestly are we at a point to where nazis are Voldemort and they cannot be named or pictured in toys or games? There is a very big difference between someone having a themed army and someone preaching nazism. I will gladly play against nazi guardsmen, vietcong tau, soviet orks, and american astartes without a second thought because themed armies are cool and its just a game. If someone is being a jerk with their words and actions, their army could be unpainted and it is still their behavior that makes me not want to play them. Would you really turn down Wolfenstein Admech because ERMAGERD NAZIS?


Um, yeah, I'd be very uncomfortable playing against a Nazi-themed Imperial Guard army. I'd go so far as to ask why that person felt the need to even do such a themed army. What the Nazis perpetrated was utterly abhorrent, and representing that on the tabletop with your Warhammer 40k that's plastered in SS symbols and swastikas is awful. You want to play Nazis? Go play Flames of War or Bolt Action. There's a big difference between murdering 6 million people in an actual historical context vs "the Imperium of Man is a terrible place and regularly commits genocides against it's populations" fictional context. People don't convert entire 2,000 point Warhammer armies with Nazi insignia because they think the Nazis were horrifying. At best they do it for the shock value.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 DominayTrix wrote:
What is wrong with that?

simple answer? you, the club that allowed you to play, and everyone accepting it will face a law suit for showing forbidden symbols in public, using them without being clearly against the ideology, as well a a trial for revival of Nazism if you try to defend their use outside of historical context/documentation/teaching

GW showing such models on FB will get them into trouble

Similar as Wargaming needed to change the Achievements in World of Tanks which were named after SS Officers and is not allowed to show the historical flags/icons/symbols

the US is a little different here, but I guess there would be also nothing wrong with a Space Marine army painted as KKK

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

And yet for me it wouldn't phase me one bit. As you say people play Bolt Action; people play Axis in ever so many video games. Axis and Allies as a game is something I've just grown up with.

It's in films, computer games, board games. It's somehow not managed to replace cowboys and indians (though I think that might have died on its own due to stuff and the lack of westerns being on the TV in a long while in a big way).

But in general today for the vast majority of people WW2 is a part of history; as much as the Roman Empire, Mongols, or any other historical event. You are no more evil modelling your Imperial Guard after the Nazis than you are modelling your Skaven after Mongols or your Bretonnia after Crusaders

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles






 Mr. Grey wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:

What is wrong with that? Honestly are we at a point to where nazis are Voldemort and they cannot be named or pictured in toys or games? There is a very big difference between someone having a themed army and someone preaching nazism. I will gladly play against nazi guardsmen, vietcong tau, soviet orks, and american astartes without a second thought because themed armies are cool and its just a game. If someone is being a jerk with their words and actions, their army could be unpainted and it is still their behavior that makes me not want to play them. Would you really turn down Wolfenstein Admech because ERMAGERD NAZIS?


Um, yeah, I'd be very uncomfortable playing against a Nazi-themed Imperial Guard army. I'd go so far as to ask why that person felt the need to even do such a themed army. What the Nazis perpetrated was utterly abhorrent, and representing that on the tabletop with your Warhammer 40k that's plastered in SS symbols and swastikas is awful. You want to play Nazis? Go play Flames of War or Bolt Action. There's a big difference between murdering 6 million people in an actual historical context vs "the Imperium of Man is a terrible place and regularly commits genocides against it's populations" fictional context. People don't convert entire 2,000 point Warhammer armies with Nazi insignia because they think the Nazis were horrifying. At best they do it for the shock value.

I don't assume people's intentions. I would ask them and if the answer is "because I like nazis" then we have a problem. If the answer is "I like to have history inspired armies" or "I grew up playing Wolfenstein so this is 40k Wolfenstein" then we are probably good. You would refuse this army which was posted by a guy who was clearly not a neo-nazi in any way shape or form? : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/blog/389266.page Don't get me wrong, Wehraboos are typically terrible people who should be shunned and ignored, but if you spend enough time playing WW2 games you can spot a Wehraboo from a mile away just like you can tell the difference between nudity and erotic art. That being said, I would not personally want a nazi themed army because I do not want to be associated with Wehraboos and I would prefer to leave it at that because its treading dangerously close to politics and away from the topic at hand which is that "this harms our brand" is hard to measure based on if it offends people.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

Doesn't the Armageddon Steel Leigon literally use the SS lightning bolt as one of their insignia and put the tricolored shield on the sides of their Stalhelm, as Nazis did.

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






The Steel Legion insignia is just a lightning bolt in a circle, like Valhallans are just a star in a square but the tricolour yes they do seem to use that.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 DominayTrix wrote:
"this harms our brand" is hard to measure based on if it offends people.


This is probably why the line uses vague terms like ‘prejudicial’ tbh. It’s hard to define and they don’t want to accidentally imply something is acceptable which ends up causing outrage.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Lord Zarkov wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:
"this harms our brand" is hard to measure based on if it offends people.


This is probably why the line uses vague terms like ‘prejudicial’ tbh. It’s hard to define and they don’t want to accidentally imply something is acceptable which ends up causing outrage.


That is not really a vague term, though. It has specific definition in a legal context that's different from the usual one. 2nd definition from google:

Law
harm or injury that results or may result from some action or judgement.
"prejudice resulting from delay in the institution of the proceedings"


Missing or not realizing that word is there and means that completely changes the interpretation of it in a way that implies something entirely different (and worse). It's quite an important part for the overall meaning of that line.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/05 17:04:14


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 Gert wrote:
The Steel Legion insignia is just a lightning bolt in a circle, like Valhallans are just a star in a square but the tricolour yes they do seem to use that.


And nobody has any doubts Valhallans are a bootleg version of the Red Army, now do they.

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 Overread wrote:
You are no more evil modelling your Imperial Guard after the Nazis than you are modelling your Skaven after Mongols or your Bretonnia after Crusaders

playing a historical army in a historical game is one thing, modeling an army after people who found ethnic cleansing cool is something different

modeling something after German Army, like the Steel Legion is, is something different than coming up with the Nazi theme

as argument "because I like historical armies" falls flat if you chose a political ideology as theme

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 kodos wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:
What is wrong with that?

simple answer? you, the club that allowed you to play, and everyone accepting it

Basically this.

Nazi 'hams can feth off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 17:18:32


 
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






You can certainly theme your guard army on the WWII German army, without using offensive icons. If you have to include Iron Crosses and Swastikas', maybe you're working on the project for the wrong reasons. Lots of folks play Historical German armies in games like Flames of War, and Bolt Action, without using that iconography.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 17:19:57


Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I mean I'm a pretty avid history buff but the Steel Legion doesn't remind me of fallschirmjäger. The Valhallans are pretty obvious because of the winter gear, red stars, Russian-sounding names, and stereotypical wave tactics (which never actually happened btw).
The Steel Legion have a fairly generic helmet and a lightning bolt symbol but doesn't use camo patterns, and importantly are mechanised infantry rather than paratroopers (intent not reality BTW I do know the fallschirmjäger basically became normal infantry after a certain point). Are all lightning bolt symbols Nazi imagery now? If I really look into it then yeah I can see the similar helmet design but it's not nearly as obvious as Catachans or Valhallans what the influences are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 17:22:07


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






All edge, no point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 17:28:37


 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles






 jaredb wrote:
You can certainly theme your guard army on the WWII German army, without using offensive icons. If you have to include Iron Crosses and Swastikas', maybe you're working on the project for the wrong reasons. Lots of folks play Historical German armies in games like Flames of War, and Bolt Action, without using that iconography.

That's generally how you spot a Wehraboo yes. Swastikas are tacky and not nearly as cool as a half-track or stahlhelm. Totenkopfs/SS Bolts are probably more offensive than an Iron Cross and a much more clearcut "they are after the ideology not the history."

Bringing it back to the topic, the policy strikes me as a an attempt to go after people like Arch who are a much bigger brand risk and GW wants to be able to make absolutely clear they are not brand ambassadors. The only real threat nazi guardsmen pose to GW's bottom line is that you can get 30 Bolt Action Germans for only $10 more than 10 Cadians. Kromlech has been left alone and I hope they remain untouched because historical parody orks are fantastic.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 DominayTrix wrote:
 jaredb wrote:
You can certainly theme your guard army on the WWII German army, without using offensive icons. If you have to include Iron Crosses and Swastikas', maybe you're working on the project for the wrong reasons. Lots of folks play Historical German armies in games like Flames of War, and Bolt Action, without using that iconography.

That's generally how you spot a Wehraboo yes. Swastikas are tacky and not nearly as cool as a half-track or stahlhelm. Totenkopfs/SS Bolts are probably more offensive than an Iron Cross and a much more clearcut "they are after the ideology not the history."

Bringing it back to the topic, the policy strikes me as a an attempt to go after people like Arch who are a much bigger brand risk and GW wants to be able to make absolutely clear they are not brand ambassadors. The only real threat nazi guardsmen pose to GW's bottom line is that you can get 30 Bolt Action Germans for only $10 more than 10 Cadians. Kromlech has been left alone and I hope they remain untouched because historical parody orks are fantastic.



Alternatively, you can get 30 WW1 Germans from WGA for 4 pounds less than 10 GW Cadians.

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Well, I'm given to understand that more modders are being gone after, including those not associated with CA games, so money is this mysterious force is GW, which a lot of people have been saying, but some here have been denying hard and trying to blame CA.



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 BaronIveagh wrote:
Well, I'm given to understand that more modders are being gone after, including those not associated with CA games,


Such as?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 DominayTrix wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:

What is wrong with that? Honestly are we at a point to where nazis are Voldemort and they cannot be named or pictured in toys or games? There is a very big difference between someone having a themed army and someone preaching nazism. I will gladly play against nazi guardsmen, vietcong tau, soviet orks, and american astartes without a second thought because themed armies are cool and its just a game. If someone is being a jerk with their words and actions, their army could be unpainted and it is still their behavior that makes me not want to play them. Would you really turn down Wolfenstein Admech because ERMAGERD NAZIS?


Um, yeah, I'd be very uncomfortable playing against a Nazi-themed Imperial Guard army. I'd go so far as to ask why that person felt the need to even do such a themed army. What the Nazis perpetrated was utterly abhorrent, and representing that on the tabletop with your Warhammer 40k that's plastered in SS symbols and swastikas is awful. You want to play Nazis? Go play Flames of War or Bolt Action. There's a big difference between murdering 6 million people in an actual historical context vs "the Imperium of Man is a terrible place and regularly commits genocides against it's populations" fictional context. People don't convert entire 2,000 point Warhammer armies with Nazi insignia because they think the Nazis were horrifying. At best they do it for the shock value.

I don't assume people's intentions. I would ask them and if the answer is "because I like nazis" then we have a problem. If the answer is "I like to have history inspired armies" or "I grew up playing Wolfenstein so this is 40k Wolfenstein" then we are probably good. You would refuse this army which was posted by a guy who was clearly not a neo-nazi in any way shape or form? : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/blog/389266.page Don't get me wrong, Wehraboos are typically terrible people who should be shunned and ignored, but if you spend enough time playing WW2 games you can spot a Wehraboo from a mile away just like you can tell the difference between nudity and erotic art. That being said, I would not personally want a nazi themed army because I do not want to be associated with Wehraboos and I would prefer to leave it at that because its treading dangerously close to politics and away from the topic at hand which is that "this harms our brand" is hard to measure based on if it offends people.



I looked at that thread and the OP says "My grandfather died in a concentration camp. He fell out of a watchtower lol"

Yea, very clearly NOT a neo-nazi. Just quacks like one and models an army like one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 18:53:09


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians



Everyone who makes use of the Steam Workshop and puts their beta builds on Patreon or accepts donations. So, basically, most of them.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Rihgu wrote:

I looked at that thread and the OP says "My grandfather died in a concentration camp. He fell out of a watchtower lol"

Yea, very clearly NOT a neo-nazi. Just quacks like one and models an army like one.



The sheer amount of edgelordism, clean wermacht mythology, "efficient nazi organisation" (spoliler: they were gak at it)... well, my Internet bingo card overfloweth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 19:17:39


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 BaronIveagh wrote:


Everyone who makes use of the Steam Workshop and puts their beta builds on Patreon or accepts donations. So, basically, most of them.


So... basicly people making a profit off the IP without a lisence, gotcha

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

BrianDavion wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:


Everyone who makes use of the Steam Workshop and puts their beta builds on Patreon or accepts donations. So, basically, most of them.


So... basicly people making a profit off the IP without a lisence, gotcha


And i don't see how that's something morally wrong

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 BaronIveagh wrote:


Everyone who makes use of the Steam Workshop and puts their beta builds on Patreon or accepts donations. So, basically, most of them.


I've not seen any mention of stuff involving modders not associated with CA games, can you be more specific?
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Gert wrote:
I mean I'm a pretty avid history buff but the Steel Legion doesn't remind me of fallschirmjäger.


You need to look at their early war uniform then.



Look familiar?


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
 
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