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Made in us
[DCM]
Pious Warrior Priest





life.






I now say GW has gone too far for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 14:20:23


I play: AOS Death, AOS Cities of Sigmar, 40K imperial soup.

Co-owner of Two Idiots Printing Service, a 3D printing service. 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





Terrible.

They pretty much got me into the game.
I'll definitely look for their next project !

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in ua
Dakka Veteran




Quite likely, their work WOULD fall into fair use (or fair dealing in the UK), but that's not what the issue is. The issue is the COST of defending their stance in court, and the length of time and damages that Games Workshop would put them through to defend their legal position. Sad but can't say unexpected.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pious Warrior Priest





life.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.


Yes, quite.

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.

I play: AOS Death, AOS Cities of Sigmar, 40K imperial soup.

Co-owner of Two Idiots Printing Service, a 3D printing service. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I've been trying to be positive about a lot of the things about GW and Warhammer recently but these last couple of weeks have really been hard. TTS has been such a joy to watch and grow alongside.
I'm really enjoying playing Warhammer again after this last year of chaos but honestly now it's just sad to sit down after a game and think "oh I can't really enjoy my hobby anymore".
The team at my local GW are such a nice bunch as well but the company itself is so broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.

This was a bit rude TBH. There was no way people could have know everything that was going to happen. Companies threaten parody sites and shows all the time and rarely anything comes of it. Just because people don't automatically hate everything GW does, doesn't make them a shill. Have some respect.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 23:46:04


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 Gert wrote:
I've been trying to be positive about a lot of the things about GW and Warhammer recently but these last couple of weeks have really been hard. TTS has been such a joy to watch and grow alongside.
I'm really enjoying playing Warhammer again after this last year of chaos but honestly now it's just sad to sit down after a game and think "oh I can't really enjoy my hobby anymore".
The team at my local GW are such a nice bunch as well but the company itself is so broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.

This was a bit rude TBH. There was no way people could have know everything that was going to happen. Companies threaten parody sites and shows all the time and rarely anything comes of it. Just because people don't automatically hate everything GW does, doesn't make them a shill. Have some respect.


It's GW, they really should've known better

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





 lord marcus wrote:


Yes, quite.

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


Nay. Everything GW related.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






Feth GW

"Don't Feed the Troll"

ETC is the forum equivalent of a short bus. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

It's GW, they really should've known better

Yes how could people have known TTS would stop when nobody can see into the future. GW could have gone after TTS any time in the past 8 years especially when it got big enough to be an entry point into the hobby but TTS continued. And again, have some respect instead of immediately posting about how right you were that a group of people just lost a major source of income.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pious Warrior Priest





life.

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
 lord marcus wrote:


Yes, quite.

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


Nay. Everything GW related.



*Insert Darth Vader screaming*

I play: AOS Death, AOS Cities of Sigmar, 40K imperial soup.

Co-owner of Two Idiots Printing Service, a 3D printing service. 
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

GW shooting themselves in the foot. Wasn't a fan, but TTS got a lot of folks into 40k & had a huge audience.

The Circle of Iniquity
The Fourth Seal
 ClockworkZion wrote:
And sure, I assumed too much
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





A lot of people seem to be missing that the article on the GW site was just an update of their previous policy and it's all protections that are in place by copyright regardless of they had written that or not.

Here's a link to the policy as of 2014: https://web.archive.org/web/20140702151219/http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Intellectual-Property-Policy

It's pretty much the same stuff as the new version - don't distribute copyrighted art/text/material, don't use their trademarks wrongly, don't sell any fan works and make it clear they're not official etc.

It even says the same thing as the current one does regarding fan animations and games, just worded differently - You don't have the copyright and so can't do whatever you like, but if you want to do those things, then you need a license from GW.

Licensing

If you think you have a winning idea and want to make a video game, an app, some merchandise, a movie or anything else that you will be distributing (either for free or at a cost) using Games Workshop’s IP then you need permission in the form of a license from Games Workshop. If you've got a strong vision of something you want to produce, using our imagery, and have a sound plan to make it a reality, then the people to talk to are our licensing department. They really want to hear from you! You can reach them at licensing@gwplc.com.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 00:08:26


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Well, right. The only thing that changed is GW got into the streaming game.

   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Gert wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

It's GW, they really should've known better

Yes how could people have known TTS would stop when nobody can see into the future. GW could have gone after TTS any time in the past 8 years especially when it got big enough to be an entry point into the hobby but TTS continued. And again, have some respect instead of immediately posting about how right you were that a group of people just lost a major source of income.


How could people have known? This was the entire point of GW’s latest policy update, to remove any Warhammer video content that didn’t directly earn them money. This isn’t some unforeseen second-tier consequence. This was the message received loud and clear.

I don’t see any disrespect in agreeing with TTS about GW.

   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Daedalus has it. In Alfa's and Earndil's statements they talk about how GW has been the shadow overhead for 8 years but despite that GW didn't make any moves against TTS. The fact that GW is specifically emphasising fan animations and films now is the difference purely because of Warhammer +.
And as for licensing, parody should fall under fair use but obviously the TTS team doesn't trust GW enough not to go after them despite this.
TTS doesn't skirt around its jokes about GW or 40k, it's very clearly poking fun at both. And again, I very much feel the need point out the 8 years of no interference from GW in regards to "you should have known".
What other fan project has had the longevity of TTS? Astartes was maybe a year old, same with SODAZ work AFAIK. This isn't some brand new thing that catapulted to fame overnight and was picked up on by corporate.
As for the respect part, immediately jumping on and posting about how right you were isn't close to respectful of the situation and calling people shills because they don't agree with you is just as bad.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 00:32:07


 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I've been trying to be positive about a lot of the things about GW and Warhammer recently but these last couple of weeks have really been hard. TTS has been such a joy to watch and grow alongside.
I'm really enjoying playing Warhammer again after this last year of chaos but honestly now it's just sad to sit down after a game and think "oh I can't really enjoy my hobby anymore".
The team at my local GW are such a nice bunch as well but the company itself is so broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.

This was a bit rude TBH. There was no way people could have know everything that was going to happen. Companies threaten parody sites and shows all the time and rarely anything comes of it. Just because people don't automatically hate everything GW does, doesn't make them a shill. Have some respect.


It's GW, they really should've known better


Thank God we have you to educate us.

You should take that act outside and shake your fist at the sky. You know...really DO something.

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Gert wrote:
Daedalus has it. In Alfa's and Earndil's statements they talk about how GW has been the shadow overhead for 8 years but despite that GW didn't make any moves against TTS. The fact that GW is specifically emphasising fan animations and films now is the difference purely because of Warhammer +.


Just how is this them "specifically emphasizing" them with that supposed new negative connotation, when the previous policy version also said those very same things weren't allowed and you'd need to get a license with games, apps and movies (so, animations) all coming under that "you need a license" aspect in both versions? The only difference is that they've now got an extra line above the section saying they're "infringements" (which they were before, too - that hasn't changed) with the multiple large paragraphs of the old version being simplified and the information in them spaced out so video games and movies/animations aren't bundled in the same line as before.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 00:35:23


 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

I'm not sure why everyone is outraged at GW over this. It sounds like they didn't actually do anything. They didn't say anything to these guys or threaten them with any kind of legal action, did they? I guess they're worried that with GW moving into animation themselves they might come after them, but you're getting mad over something that might or might not happen?
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Important information from the video, though : GW has actually done nothing to the channel nor contacted the creator, and the creator hasn't contacted GW either.

He decided to do that on his own. He simply read the updated rules on GW's website and gave up. That's it.

I watched the full video and I don't really understand why it's so long just for that...oh, right. It's a youtube video.

Predictable how people are immediately raging about GW while GW...did nothing to him specifically. That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Spoiler:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Just how is this them "specifically emphasizing" them with that supposed new negative connotation, when the previous policy version also said those very same things weren't allowed and you'd need to get a license with games, apps and movies (so, animations) all coming under that "you need a license" aspect in both versions? The only difference is that they've now got an extra line above the section saying they're "infringements" (which they were before, too - that hasn't changed) with the multiple large paragraphs of the old version being simplified and the information in them spaced out so video games and movies/animations aren't bundled in the same line as before.

The expanded definition is what matters. What is a movie? To me a movie is something I see at a cinema or watch from a DVD/streaming service, something like the Ultramarines Movie. A 20 minute animation on YouTube that makes silly jokes about GW and 40k isn't a movie, it's a video. I consider movies to have extremely high budgets ranging in the hundreds of thousands. I very much doubt TTS costs hundreds of thousands to make.
There is also a distinct change in the tone and language of the IP rules. The old ones were more suggestive and light hearted with lines like "They'd love to here from you!" and "You need permission". Compared to "We have a zero tolerance policy" and "Our products must not be imitated". It's not the same.

For the peeps saying "GW didn't do anything", this is yes and no. GW didn't do anything specifically to the TTS crew in terms of C&D's or sternly worded emails, instead the IP rules were changed from fairly calm wording to very lawyer hardline wording that makes it much more difficult to work with. Historically GW hasn't gone after fan-art either, yet many artists have cancelled commissions for any Warhammer related content in case GW does decide to go after fan-art. TTS should be protected under parody and satire fair use rules but until the waters are tested over the IP updates, nobody is going for a swim.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 00:54:28


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

It's GW, they really should've known better

What should they have known?

Going by the video, they haven't been shut down by GW, they've chosen to shut themselves down rather than risk potential legal action.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

But... but GW has changed guys! They have a Facebook page now. And an Instagram, which means they're just like us. And they make Primaris Lieutenant jokes like we do. They're our friends... right?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
It's GW, they really should've known better
It's GW. We know full well that they don't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 01:00:59


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Just how is this them "specifically emphasizing" them with that supposed new negative connotation, when the previous policy version also said those very same things weren't allowed and you'd need to get a license with games, apps and movies (so, animations) all coming under that "you need a license" aspect in both versions? The only difference is that they've now got an extra line above the section saying they're "infringements" (which they were before, too - that hasn't changed) with the multiple large paragraphs of the old version being simplified and the information in them spaced out so video games and movies/animations aren't bundled in the same line as before.

The expanded definition is what matters. What is a movie? To me a movie is something I see at a cinema or watch from a DVD/streaming service, something like the Ultramarines Movie. A 20 minute animation on YouTube that makes silly jokes about GW and 40k isn't a movie, it's a video. I consider movies to have extremely high budgets ranging in the hundreds of thousands. I very much doubt TTS costs hundreds of thousands to make.
There is also a distinct change in the tone and language of the IP rules. The old ones were more suggestive and light hearted with lines like "They'd love to here from you!" and "You need permission". Compared to "We have a zero tolerance policy" and "Our products must not be imitated". It's not the same.


The semantics of whether an animation is a movie or not is besides the point. It still says games, apps, movies and anything else along those lines needs a license and as you do not have the copyright you can't make them without that license. That's the case in both versions, and not new.

The new article is simply a summarized version of the previous guidelines. The somewhat more lighthearted wording has been removed from all of it because the article has been shortened and re-organized to make it simpler to understand and so each point doesn't take up a whole paragraph, both for the guidelines part and the infringment part. It still has some presence at the top half of the article before all that starts. They have not singled out any specific part any more than any other - it's all the same information, just said in fewer words.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 01:07:32


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 nels1031 wrote:
My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.


If you did, your third thought would have been : "GW didn't go after TTS at all, the creator decided himself alone to put his channel on hiatus"
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Sarouan wrote:
Predictable how people are immediately raging about GW while GW...did nothing to him specifically. That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here.
The way you leap on anyone who might even consider attacking (or even just mildly criticising) GW is the only predictable thing here.

More disturbing is your 'GW did nothing - this was all his decision' nonsense. Do you not understand the basics concepts of context? Cause and effect?

He didn't just do this out of the blue. He did this to hopefully avoid getting his channel nukes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 15:51:01


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Mentlegen324 wrote:
The semantics of whether an animation is a move or not is besides the point. It still says games, apps, movies and anything else along those lines needs a license and as you do not have the copyright you can't make them without that license.

It's a summarized version of the previous guidelines. The somewhat more lighthearted wording has been removed from all of it because the article has been shortened and re-organized to make it simpler to understand and so each point doesn't take up a whole paragraph, both for the guidelines part and the infringment part. It still has some presence at the top half of the article before all that starts.

Semantics aren't besides the point because if the IP rules were vague then it could easily be argued "What makes a movie?". There's a reason microwave meals have warnings on them saying "heated food will be hot, handle with care" because semantics and specificity matter in terms of law. If you do not set out as many guidelines as possible then someone will find a way around those guidelines. Take Scotlands Covid Restrictions on restaurants/bars/pubs for example, groups used to only have a 2 hour slot for a booking. However, a booking system was not explicitly required and nothing was said about simply booking another slot immediately after your first ended, so technically a restaurant/bar/pub could have a group in from opening time til close. Technicalities matter and that's the difference between the old and updated statements on GW IP rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 01:12:49


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Gert wrote:
Mentlegen324 800020 11186347 wrote:
The semantics of whether an animation is a move or not is besides the point. It still says games, apps, movies and anything else along those lines needs a license and as you do not have the copyright you can't make them without that license.

It's a summarized version of the previous guidelines. The somewhat more lighthearted wording has been removed from all of it because the article has been shortened and re-organized to make it simpler to understand and so each point doesn't take up a whole paragraph, both for the guidelines part and the infringment part. It still has some presence at the top half of the article before all that starts.

Semantics aren't besides the point because if the IP rules were vague then it could easily be argued "What makes a movie?". There's a reason microwave meals have warnings on them saying "heated food will be hot, handle with care" because semantics and specificity matter in terms of law. If you do not set out as many guidelines as possible then someone will find a way around those guidelines. Take Scotlands Covid Restrictions on restaurants/bars/pubs for example, groups used to only have a 2 hour slot for a booking. However, a booking system was not explicitly required and nothing was said about simply booking another slot immediately after your first ended, so technically a restaurant/bar/pub could have a group in from opening time til close. Technicalities matter and that's the difference between the old and updated statements on GW IP rules.


Semantics are besides the point in this situation, unless you're going to try and say that in the context of "a movie or anything else that you will be distributing (either for free or at a cost)" that an animation wouldn't either count as a "movie" or "anything else that you will be distributing". It says anything along those lines that uses their IP, you don't have permission for and will need a license, that is the point.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 01:16:52


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:

More disturbing is your 'GW did nothing - this was all his decision' nonsense. Do you not understand the basics concepts of context? Cause and effect?

He didn't just do this out of the blue. He did this to hopefully avoid getting his channel nukes.

You claim to have watched the whole video. I claim that you failed to even slightly comprehend even a single second of it.


You're biased as always. All he talked about are why he did that, and indeed his fears and personnal justifications for not even trying to contact GW and have a license / deal with them.

The cause / effect here is he read the updated rules on GW website and decided to put his channel on hiatus. End of the story.

So when you have the OP write this :

 lord marcus wrote:

I now say GW has gone too far for me.


 lord marcus wrote:

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


...it's clear that to him, GW was the one directly responsible of shutting down the TTS channel. But from the video, that's not what happened.

That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 01:20:03


 
   
 
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