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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grimskul wrote:
I'm actually surprised they gave above average stats for the Red Gobbo, he's still not great but at least he's flavourful for narrative games and I personally laugh at how he can kill a grot unit he's passing out the stikkbombs to.


Just another useless model. I was torn the other day on whether or not to buy it....i'm glad i decided against it, those rules are terrible. 6+ leadership is garbage, stikkbomms is terrible, the only thing worth a damn on him is his pistol so in essence you are overpaying for a crappier version of a heavy bolter with 1/3rd the range and a complete lack of durability.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
I never saw KMB koptas nor mini meks as a worthwhile investments of my points. You are getting +2 CP for spending over 200 points on six ~BS4 shots...

MA Warboss, Bikeboss, KFF Mek and Bike Mek are painful though. To be fair Orks have all but disappeared from the upper echelons of competitive play since Marines dropped anyway. The latest Stats Centre break down in some detail how badly hit we, GSC and Eldar have been hit. It aint pretty.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





While I agree on the units, the part about competitive play is not true. Orks have seen roughly the same amount of top placements in large tournaments as before, just less tournament winners - despite being able to go undefeated against the marine meta, marines just score more points than orks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/19 23:18:07


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Jid man you’re wrong on this. I hate to say it but the stats speak for themselves and they paint an awful picture. Win rate down something like 6%, TWIP down below 2, more Ork players losing quicker than ever before on average and less points earned on average. The stats that represent a competitive faction in 40k all point to Orks (among others) dropping off the edge of a cliff. Yes players have gone undefeated in very rare situations where, it is believed, they simply didn’t face marines.

Orks can not compete in the Marine meta, or if they can no one has figured out how to make them able yet, the stats back this up entirely.
   
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Douglasville, GA

SemperMortis wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.


Sadly I am not exaggerating in the slightest :( I faced off against a Tau onion of death (50 Firewarriors) I tried to assault it, he had the buff character near it which gave it 150 shots as Tau sept so hitting on 5s. He rolled slightly above average hits like 60ish and wounding on 3s meant he wiped the unit out in overwatch. An onion of death is basically an assault proof unit so long as you don't get a strategy that lets you avoid overwatch.

That is when I decided I had to take a loota bomb to counter the tau onion of death and a bunch of other factions ridiculous tactics. The next time I met that player in a tournament he tried the same thing, I double shot my Lootas with exploding 5s and wiped out his onion turn 1 along with a broadside suit. Turn 2 I assaulted him and it was basically GG.


Man, that's some bad luck. On average, even assuming a -1 AP to remove your Save, you should have only lost about half your unit (16.6 models). But yeah, you HAVE to weaken that onion with some solid shooting first. Right now, the only Tau unit I really have issues with are Riptides and their "we take a MW and now we have a 3++ Save" shenanigans.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





I've been literally checking the top 4 placements of all GT every week and posting them to this thread, and we had three top 4 placements just last week, with one of those 3 tying for first place.

Edit: Just for completeness - no orks in the top 4 this week, but this has happened before marines as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/20 00:20:15


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Douglasville, GA

On the topic of the Red Gobbo: I don't think he's "garbage". The Stikkbomb ability is pretty bad (again, because no Extra Stikkbombs), but Leadership 6 on Gretchin is still 2 less lost to Morale (on average). Probably still better off just letting the Grots run away, of course. Still, he's only 30 pts, and his wargear and stat line ain't awful for that cost.

If we're gonna color-code him, he's probably Yellow. Obviously not very competitive, but he's not gonna actively hurt you to take either. That said, he'd be an easy Green if he's an HQ. Him, a Weirdboy, and 3 10 man Gretchin squads will give you a 182 pt CP Battery. But, I think (like the Runtherd) he ain't got a battlefield role, which kinda sucks.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 flandarz wrote:
Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.


Sadly I am not exaggerating in the slightest :( I faced off against a Tau onion of death (50 Firewarriors) I tried to assault it, he had the buff character near it which gave it 150 shots as Tau sept so hitting on 5s. He rolled slightly above average hits like 60ish and wounding on 3s meant he wiped the unit out in overwatch. An onion of death is basically an assault proof unit so long as you don't get a strategy that lets you avoid overwatch.

That is when I decided I had to take a loota bomb to counter the tau onion of death and a bunch of other factions ridiculous tactics. The next time I met that player in a tournament he tried the same thing, I double shot my Lootas with exploding 5s and wiped out his onion turn 1 along with a broadside suit. Turn 2 I assaulted him and it was basically GG.


Man, that's some bad luck. On average, even assuming a -1 AP to remove your Save, you should have only lost about half your unit (16.6 models). But yeah, you HAVE to weaken that onion with some solid shooting first. Right now, the only Tau unit I really have issues with are Riptides and their "we take a MW and now we have a 3++ Save" shenanigans.


50 firewarriors with 150 shots hitting on 5s is 50 hits on average (rerolling 1s is another 8ish) so 58 hits on average, wounding on 3s = 39ish, vs a 6+ save = wiped mob. even without rerolling 1s its 150 shots, 50 hits 33 wounds vs a 6+ save = 28dead orkz so those 50 firewarriors only need to kill 3 wounds of T4 6+ save in CC to finish the squad off. Not exactly hard to do.

 flandarz wrote:
On the topic of the Red Gobbo: I don't think he's "garbage". The Stikkbomb ability is pretty bad (again, because no Extra Stikkbombs), but Leadership 6 on Gretchin is still 2 less lost to Morale (on average). Probably still better off just letting the Grots run away, of course. Still, he's only 30 pts, and his wargear and stat line ain't awful for that cost.

If we're gonna color-code him, he's probably Yellow. Obviously not very competitive, but he's not gonna actively hurt you to take either. That said, he'd be an easy Green if he's an HQ. Him, a Weirdboy, and 3 10 man Gretchin squads will give you a 182 pt CP Battery. But, I think (like the Runtherd) he ain't got a battlefield role, which kinda sucks.


I have to disagree, he does actively hurt you. If he was ALL Grots are fearless he would be great! but he isn't. for 5pts more you can get a Runtherd who makes grotz nearby fearless for all intents and purposes. So again, you are paying 10x for a single above average grot with a D3 shot S5 AP-1 pistol. He is solid red for me

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If people took more that MSUs of Gretchin, I might agree. But at that size, the difference between the Red Gobbo giving 6+ and the Runtherd killing D3 is slim. At 1-4 Casualties, the Red Gobbo provides better Morale protection, but the Runtherd never manages to save more than +1 or 2 Grots in a 10 man squad, even at 6-7 Casualties. He's also, arguably, more killy and useful. His gun is an upgrade in every sense of the word, his melee doesn't lag TOO far behind the Runtherd, and while Stikkbomb giving ain't great, it can be situationally useful.

I still wanna know if he has a battlefield role though, cuz just having that definitely ups his viability.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Some fun facts, red gobbo can be used for Grot Shields stratagem Take that, YA RELEASE EATIN GIT.

Some gakkier tactics, Da Red Gobbo can give Grot Orderlies / Ammo Runts and others Stikk Bombs, making them slightly useful (Especially in the context of flash gitz, possibly helping them proc Showoffs).

He can also give grenades to Killa Kanz and Mek Gunz.
My original idea was giving it to mek gunz, and having the "Grots" throw grenades after being buffed by the Mek Workshop. They auto hit because no Ballistic Skill (Raw, they can only shoot if BS is not -, and must roll higher than their BS). But it looks like the Mek Krew wording denies this.
   
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Douglasville, GA

Yeah, I think Mek Krew would require that they use the Gun's BS (as they're treated as a single model for ALL rules purposes). Still, those were some things I hadn't considered... neat. Giving Stikkbombs to Kanz is particularly interesting. They could have Rokkits for armor and Stikkbombz to deter infantry charging them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/20 01:20:36


 
   
Made in us
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Nebraska, USA

orks are not out of the competitive scene....
Jid mentions the top4 quite often and theres usually an ork in there. Hell an Ork was the only list capable of beating pre-nerf IronHands cheese.

What they ARE is unfluffy, but then again who is at the top of tournaments? MANz with red paint instead of buggies...pssh... fer shame...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/20 02:56:40


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

9000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
4000pts Admech/Knights 
   
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Jid, Vineheart - I’m not going to dance this dance with you. I literally know you are wrong (unless the guys that run 40k stats have some agenda to show Orks are weaker than they are). Listen to the latest 40k stats centre, Falcon breaks this all down at the start of the episode - not just how strong (OP) Marines are, but also how they have affected the meta and certain factions. The one Ork list you see in the top 4 at a small event most weeks is not representative of what is happening across the competitive scene. Simply put - your data sample is too small and your information too lacking to make any real judgement. I don’t have some vested interest in getting you to listen to stats centre, except to educate yourself. If you can’t be bothered that’s fine, but as I say the stats literally show that you are both wrong - Orks have seriously dropped in terms of competitive viability since Marines launched. This is a provable fact.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





 Grimskul wrote:
I'm actually surprised they gave above average stats for the Red Gobbo, he's still not great but at least he's flavourful for narrative games and I personally laugh at how he can kill a grot unit he's passing out the stikkbombs to.


Flavorful...for narratives? Unless you are playing a school musical can't see how Santa fits in 40k
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jid, Vineheart - Orks have seriously dropped in terms of competitive viability since Marines launched. This is a provable fact.


So, to summarise, the sky is falling on our heads - again. And, in other news?

Not sure if the one in six chance of a Mortal Wound is worth the Stikk Bombs on Kanz - are they not deployed as a unit, so only get to use one grenade per? I can see it for Gunz, but they would have to be within 6” of the enemy to benefit, so definitely situational. Think I’d rather have an extra Gun.
   
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Moriarty wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jid, Vineheart - Orks have seriously dropped in terms of competitive viability since Marines launched. This is a provable fact.


So, to summarise, the sky is falling on our heads - again. And, in other news?

The sky has well and truly fallen. Orks are already, currently nonviable in competitive play with Marines. Feel free to test this theory with your friends - play against marines and see how well your Orks perform. I'm surprised some of you don't see the issue for yourselves, I can only assume you haven't played marines much or don't play much generally.
   
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Italy

 Jidmah wrote:
I never saw KMB koptas nor mini meks as a worthwhile investments of my points. You are getting +2 CP for spending over 200 points on six ~BS4 shots...


Not a very competitive combo of course, you won't see them in tournaments. Still 30pts cheaper than two shokkjump dragstas, arguably the same firepower, but more wounds and the ability to deepstrike (koptas) and to repair vehicles (meks). They also help filling a brigade if you don't want tons of boring HQs. They're a solid alternative for casual and fluffy games, I've played them very often and never really regretted them, just know what you're taking, while I can't say the same for the dragstas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The sky has well and truly fallen. Orks are already, currently nonviable in competitive play with Marines.


I agree. Stop referring only to tournament datas and start considering real games with no time limitations. Orks do way better in 3 turns games than in real regular ones. They're not as competitive as they look on paper because they benefit a lot from tournaments formulas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/20 07:58:12


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 5000
 
   
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To be fair, English has been saying Orkz are bad since the Codex dropped. That said, I can see how we'd be doing poorly when Marines can Overwatch better than Tau, can deny Deepstrike, and generally just shut down a lot of our options with one or two Chapters. So, in this instance, I'm libel to agree with English that the Marine Codex and Supplements have given us a beating. Still, I'd be shocked if our win percentage has dropped below 40%, which I'd still consider "competitive".
   
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 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, English has been saying Orkz are bad since the Codex dropped. That said, I can see how we'd be doing poorly when Marines can Overwatch better than Tau, can deny Deepstrike, and generally just shut down a lot of our options with one or two Chapters. So, in this instance, I'm libel to agree with English that the Marine Codex and Supplements have given us a beating. Still, I'd be shocked if our win percentage has dropped below 40%, which I'd still consider "competitive".

Marine win rate is 60%, what do you consider that? Also funny that when I used win percentage as a qualifier some months ago everyone jumped on me and said I wasn't looking at a thorough enough breadth of stats (such as TWiP, first loss etc). Now I've shown all of those stats also show that we're no longer competitive the response is 'but we finish in the top 4 some weeks!'
   
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I was quite clear, I thought, that Marines are in a REALLY good spot right now. I'm not arguing that. 60% ain't THAT bad, though. With all the talk, I was under the impression that were closer to 90%. 60% means that, while they win a lot, you'll still beat them 2 out of every 5 games.

I "jumped" on ya because you went with a vague "Ork's win percent is under 50%" which, while true, made the 48% win rate we had seem far lower.

Like I said, unless we've dropped under 40%, I'd still consider Orkz to be competitive. In a meta where the top winning Faction is only at 60%, 40% really ain't that bad.
   
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Nickin' 'ur stuff

 flandarz wrote:
I was quite clear, I thought, that Marines are in a REALLY good spot right now. I'm not arguing that. 60% ain't THAT bad, though. With all the talk, I was under the impression that were closer to 90%. 60% means that, while they win a lot, you'll still beat them 2 out of every 5 games.

I "jumped" on ya because you went with a vague "Ork's win percent is under 50%" which, while true, made the 48% win rate we had seem far lower.

Like I said, unless we've dropped under 40%, I'd still consider Orkz to be competitive. In a meta where the top winning Faction is only at 60%, 40% really ain't that bad.


Isn't the problem with the "only 60%" that mirror matches are included as well and scew the statistics in so far that they do not represent the rate with which marines win against other armies?

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 flandarz wrote:
I was quite clear, I thought, that Marines are in a REALLY good spot right now. I'm not arguing that. 60% ain't THAT bad, though. With all the talk, I was under the impression that were closer to 90%. 60% means that, while they win a lot, you'll still beat them 2 out of every 5 games.

I "jumped" on ya because you went with a vague "Ork's win percent is under 50%" which, while true, made the 48% win rate we had seem far lower.

Like I said, unless we've dropped under 40%, I'd still consider Orkz to be competitive. In a meta where the top winning Faction is only at 60%, 40% really ain't that bad.


Lol 60% is broken. I believe it includes mirror matches too, so most of those losses are against other marines. That isn't our win rate against them either, our win rate is closer to 30% vs new Marines.

Your arbitrary 'unless we've dropped under 40% I'd still consider Orkz to be competitive' is bogus. You're the only person who'd consider a faction that loses 60% of the time competitive.

It is very, very bad (marines are 25% of all tournament lists, for example). I haven't got the time to go through the podcast again and relay it all to you, you can either trust me, listen to it yourself or simply ignore me and believe whatever you like. Unfortunately, because you're not an Ork, the latter option doesn't make the thing true.
   
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30% against Marines IS awful. Of course, with CA on the way, that could change very soon, so I'll wait until then to decide if we're "screwed over proper".


To be fair, you were the only person who thought 48% wasn't competitive when we last had this conversation, so I think I'll wait til the others weigh in on the matter before I take your word that I'm the only person who thinks winning 2 out of every 5 games is competitive.
   
Made in se
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna






I am the first to say that SM are broken and that we fell down a tad too much, at the same time, if you dont mind asking English,
What list are you playin and what lists are you meeting that makes you feel so much despair?

 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





2 weeks guys. December should be a decent month for us as CA and our PA books come along.

Otherwise, and after digesting them, rage again.
   
Made in se
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna






If not, I dunno what am I gonna do...

 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
2 weeks guys. December should be a decent month for us as CA and our PA books come along.

Otherwise, and after digesting them, rage again.


That assumes CA is actually good for orks. PA book for december is BA vs tyranids though. Ork one rumoured to be for january.

https://middleagedstrategybattlegamers.home.blog/2019/11/29/tneva82-daemon-of-an-ancient-world/<- lotr painting blog

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
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Regular Dakkanaut




I hope Tyranids get the short end of the stick, and Orks get the not so short end. Because it is sure as h... that at least one of these two armies is getting the dark eldar treatment as far as PA is concerned.
I have been playing both armies since 4th and 5th, and I have vivid memories of bitter disappointment over just so many GW publications... remember 7th Ed blood of Baal releases for nids, complete gak for no less than 5 new kits. Remember the ork supplement that gave the worst formations of all 7th edition...
So much gak is coming, brace yourselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/20 12:22:49


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






It's worth remembering that if the majority of lists nowadays are marines lists, their win ratio will skew with it. If 30% of games in each tournament are marines vs marines, there's going to be a marine success in there. I don't know if they compare the ration of marine wins vs marine losses, or just total games vs marine wins. If it's the latter, it will skew horribly - If a tournament was purely marines, 100% of the games would be won by marines.

Orks in 8th, W/D/L
7/0/3 
   
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Let me give you guys an idea of how messed up the current meta is;

Marines make up 25% of the field.
Marines make up 45% of all lists that go 4-0 at a tournament.
Iron hands make up 40% of all marine lists so roughly 10% of the field.
Iron hands make up 27% of all lists that go 4-0 at a tournament.

The primary counter to Iron Hands are daemons or other marines. Most factions have a 20% - 30% win rate vs them.

Orks win rate has dropped 7% since marine releases. Our TWiP is way down. Average first loss is below 2 (so we lose most often in the 2nd round). Boyz we are fethed.
   
 
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