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tulun wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
The issue with Transports is that you give up a LOT to use them. Especially for an army like Orkz where CC is so important. The best units to field in them are, by necessity, ones that have a primary role as medium-range firepower, and we only have a few units that fit that role. Long-range units are better off using Grot-Shields, and close range units want to be able to charge after firing.

I think if 10 Shoota boyz w/ 2 Rokkits (8 points each instead of 12, at 86 total) + trukk was about total 130-135 points, it might be close. But yeah, exactly. If only we could charge out of trukks...

Well... I think it's sad to say, but Orks are *not* a CC army. As depressing as that sounds.

We are an army that can charge if it need to. Woo 2 attacks and WS 3+

Look at the units we love: Lootas (shooting), TBs (shooting), Mek Gunz (shooting), SAG/SSAG (shooting), Dakkajets (shooting), Flash Gitz (shooting). Most of our stratagems are used to buff our shooting.

Its mostly just some Boyz (which are falling out of favour due to Marines) and a Warboss which are really combat focused... but yeah. We shoot. If MANz become cheaper though, maybe we got somethin'.

Thats because 8th has been designed as a ranged combat edition. Players were very butt hurt about alpha strikes in 7th, not to mention the invincible close combat units. And ironically, all of our ork shooting REQUIRES massive investments in CP except for Mek Gunz which in my opinion are actually OK where they are since they are relatively easy to remove.

Also, most of our stratagems are NOT used to buff shooting. but since its a ranged combat edition, the ones we use most frequently are buffing ranged shooting. In an edition where a 30 strong unit of boyz can be shredded in the overwatch phase....whats the point?

Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.

russellmoo wrote:
So as far as fixing trukks. What if they were cheaper say around 50ppm, and could hold more models, say 15, Would this make trukks viable?

Of course, I optimally just want cheaper stormboyz and cheaper buggies.

Since units of 20 boyz are still terrible when you put them into BW, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, the trukk could use a price drop, but the main problem is with small units of boyz being terrible, and additional three models are unlikely to fix that. Trukks with tank bustas or flash gits inside already are viable, just recently we had a list with two trukks placing third at a GT.

 Jidmah wrote:

russellmoo wrote:
So as far as fixing trukks. What if they were cheaper say around 50ppm, and could hold more models, say 15, Would this make trukks viable?

Of course, I optimally just want cheaper stormboyz and cheaper buggies.

Since units of 20 boyz are still terrible when you put them into BW, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, the trukk could use a price drop, but the main problem is with small units of boyz being terrible, and additional three models are unlikely to fix that. Trukks with tank bustas or flash gits inside already are viable, just recently we had a list with two trukks placing third at a GT.

What?? Where ?? How I missee that??! Whose list??


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Any Cover Bonus to Saves applies to the ROLL, not the CHARACTERISTIC.

In the same way, AP applies to the ROLL as well.

So, his +2 should be canceled out by your -4, for a total modifier to the roll of -2. If the result is less than the unit's Save Characteristic, then it fails

So an eliminator unit in cover become:
AP 1: 2+
AP 2: 3+
AP 3: 4+
AP 4: 5+
AP5: 6+

Right?

tulun wrote:
I'm not trying to misrepresent you here; you seem to acknowledge Trukks *give* utility, which is part of the thing I'm throwing out here. But it seemed to me you were focused solely on how good Trukk Boyz were at killing Primaris Marines. If this is incorrect, what exactly is your argument here? I don't disagree. Boyz suck at killing 2W power armour.
If you extrapolate that, then boy profiles in general suck against Marines, and probably should be shelved in all their forms (Stormboyz, 30 man blobs, etc).

A mob of 30 boyz gets one attack more (including for the PK) and even if you get just 20 models into combat, they kill almost twice as many primaris as the 12 trukk boyz, while having still having 10 ablative wounds.
However, what's much more important, is that boyz are a utility unit right now. Their main purpose is to lock down shooting units by piling into them, with the goal of arresting one to stay safe from shooting. Due to the low model count, doing any of this is pretty much impossible for trukk boyz.
If you really want to efficiently deal damage with boyz, you need to use stratagems - but moar dakka+showing off with shoota boyz to clear screens, fighting twice, green tide or even casual-level stratagems like loot it, skarboy or extra stikkbombs are just not worth using on 12 boyz.
So the things which trukk boyz can do is hit stuff with choppas (bad because no green tide bonus), shoot stuff with shootas (too many points for 20 S4 shots) or quickly get where you need them (not actually that fast, disembarking costs a turn, multiple deep strike options available to insert larger mobs). They need to be better than mobz of 30 boyz in at least one of these areas.

I think we both understand the sum of a units usefulness is *not* just in what it can kill. And TAC lists might include units that are bad against 1 popular army, but good against another one.

The thing is, there aren't any things that trukk boyz can kill efficiently. Sure they can kill a unit of guardsmen or gretchin, but the trukk itself already costs more than those. If you think there is something I missed, please provide the math.

I'm also not saying Trukk Boyz are currently good for their points; I am arguing that they should be made cheaper, which I think we also both agree on.

Actually, I disagree. 12 boyz need something to make them worth taking, both for the trukk and the bonebreaka. Less points isn't the answer to everything - making a unit cheaper just increases its efficiency, which is great for units that work in general, but are just too expensive to take. Most buggies are an example of this, while a mek workshop would be useless even at 0 points.
If a unit fails at the things it's supposed to be good at, it needs to get better at those things. Otherwise you keep making it cheaper until some other aspect becomes efficient enough to take them despite them not pulling their weight, at which point you end up with a broken unit. The 30 point trukk would be an example of this, it's so cheap for its wounds, you could prevent Mortarion from moving for the entire game for 450 points, with him having no chance of getting out of there despite fighting and pulsing mortal wounds each turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.

I guess you can pull it off by charging the big knight with the 3d6 flamer, or trying to charge two units of agressors overwatching on 5+. He probably is exaggerating to bring across his point


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Emicrania wrote:
What?? Where ?? How I missee that??! Whose list??

Sorry, it was just 4th place:
https://www.40kstats.com/fieldsofdamnation
2x 10+2 tankbustas in trukks

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Any Cover Bonus to Saves applies to the ROLL, not the CHARACTERISTIC.

In the same way, AP applies to the ROLL as well.

So, his +2 should be canceled out by your -4, for a total modifier to the roll of -2. If the result is less than the unit's Save Characteristic, then it fails

So an eliminator unit in cover become:
AP 1: 2+
AP 2: 3+
AP 3: 4+
AP 4: 5+
AP5: 6+

Right?

Thanks Jid!

I thought there was a rumor a while back about there being army specific detachments? and I guess what magic number would make them more viable in terms of CP generation. For instance If there was the typical ork warband detachment. 2 HQ and 3 Ork boy units = 7 CP? Would it be viable at that point? or worse would we end up spamming this detachment with 10 man boy squads. What CP generation would it need to be to be 2 HQ and 3 30 man squads?

I see Flash Gits being talked about a little in this thread. I think they're really cool and want to use them, but their rules seem super awkward.

Are they competitively viable? if so how do you field them?

The problem with 3 blobs of Boyz is that you can only Da Jump one at a time. A Boy Blob that you don't Da Jump is just a big target for all your opponent's anti-Infantry (also if you fail a charge after Da Jump). To make a three Blob detachment work, Boyz would need better durability or speed to survive until they can cross the board. Deathskullz can help with the durability (KFF too, but it's pretty hard to keep that many models in a KFF bubble), and Evil Sunz can speed you up, but even in these Kulturz it's incredibly risky. Remember that each Blob costs over 1/10th of your point total, so losing one before it can do anything is a huge blow.

Being expensive also means you have less points for other "heavy lifting" units. As Jid mentioned, Boyz have a primary purpose of locking units into CC to prevent them from shooting. This means you need other units to actually deal damage (though against Infantry, Boyz can handle this well enough) and score Objectives. And Boyz themselves aren't actually all that CP hungry, outside of EGT and Get Stuck In, so additional CP doesn't do them a whole lot of good.

So, for me, the risks of bringing 3 Boy Blobz outweigh the benefits of any increase in CP generation. But if you wanna bring em, you can probably still perform just fine outside of a hyper-competitive environment.

As for the Gitz: I believe most folks are putting 12 of the in a Trukk and fielding them that way.

I don't get FG in trukk, you can't benefit from freebooterz and you can't benefit from Badrukk. You loose like 50% of offensive for mere 10 extra W T6.

You can benefit from Freebooterz if the Transport does (because it transfers ALL Modifiers to the occupants). I believe it's mostly used as a means to get your otherwise slow Gitz into range with their 24" guns. And you can also Loot It to give then a 3+ Save, for a bit more survivability after it pops.

mhalko1 wrote:
I thought there was a rumor a while back about there being army specific detachments? and I guess what magic number would make them more viable in terms of CP generation. For instance If there was the typical ork warband detachment. 2 HQ and 3 Ork boy units = 7 CP? Would it be viable at that point? or worse would we end up spamming this detachment with 10 man boy squads. What CP generation would it need to be to be 2 HQ and 3 30 man squads?

To be honest, you'd probably just see people bring 3 10 man squads of Boyz if the extra CP was worth it, which probably isn't that much better than just bringing 3 10 man grot squads in terms of being thematic. We need CP too badly in order to compete.

footfoe wrote:
I see Flash Gits being talked about a little in this thread. I think they're really cool and want to use them, but their rules seem super awkward.

Are they competitively viable? if so how do you field them?

I don't think they've been in any top 4 lists, but they are probably just a couple hairs below viable. Baddruk is an awesome HQ on his own, though.

The main problems they face are short ranged guns combined with not being able to shoot twice guaranteed; they fill a similar role to Lootas, but Lootas are probably better, even with the various # shots and mob up nerfs. They also cannot get grot shields without fielding an entire detachment of Freebootas, and with the # of D2 shots around, are in s

I think generally people put them in a trukk or wagon. You can pile Baddruk, 2 ammo runts, and 9 flash gitz in a trukk, and then loot the trukk when it pops for a 3+ armour save for the unit. The ammo runts give some ablative wounds as well for disembarking / shooting. If you didn't wanna field Baddruk, you could also just do 10 gitz + 2 runts.

flandarz wrote:
The problem with 3 blobs of Boyz is that you can only Da Jump one at a time. A Boy Blob that you don't Da Jump is just a big target for all your opponent's anti-Infantry (also if you fail a charge after Da Jump). To make a three Blob detachment work, Boyz would need better durability or speed to survive until they can cross the board. Deathskullz can help with the durability (KFF too, but it's pretty hard to keep that many models in a KFF bubble), and Evil Sunz can speed you up, but even in these Kulturz it's incredibly risky. Remember that each Blob costs over 1/10th of your point total, so losing one before it can do anything is a huge blow.

Being expensive also means you have less points for other "heavy lifting" units. As Jid mentioned, Boyz have a primary purpose of locking units into CC to prevent them from shooting. This means you need other units to actually deal damage (though against Infantry, Boyz can handle this well enough) and score Objectives. And Boyz themselves aren't actually all that CP hungry, outside of EGT and Get Stuck In, so additional CP doesn't do them a whole lot of good.

So, for me, the risks of bringing 3 Boy Blobz outweigh the benefits of any increase in CP generation. But if you wanna bring em, you can probably still perform just fine outside of a hyper-competitive environment.

As for the Gitz: I believe most folks are putting 12 of the in a Trukk and fielding them that way.

KFF + Painboy gives boyz roughly 45% chance of making a save; but this is probably still not enough to make them survivable slogging.

And now, with the new Marine toys like Auspex Scan, it's hard to deep strike boyz without them getting totally blown apart.

 Emicrania wrote:
Going on another subject.

I had a discussion with a SM player the other day. He claimed that eliminators in cover can get 1+ due the rule that gives them +2 when in cover.
I said that is impossible because MANZ cannot have 1+ thanks to loot it, so nobody can have it
We discussed it a while, arriving nowhere .
So I shot one unit with smashaguns and tripointed another one

Who is right ?

the difference was that loot it changes the characteristic. so they would be a 1+ SV. this is differerent then getting a +2 to save and being at a 2+ SV already. and again the +2 and -4 would offset to become -2 or the same as a 4+ roll needed to save.

Lol the new 56 point Mortifiers there (the penitent engines piloted by sisters, the new type) can dish out 15 attacks strengh 6 attacks ap-2 after having fired 6 heavy bolter shots (no penalty to move as they can make em assault).

3 of these, for only 168 points, can just walk up to a 30 boyz mob, shoot, charge, and more or less wipe em out with just one buff.

They are movement 9 so they should get there quite easily. It really is not just SM now.

footfoe wrote:
I see Flash Gits being talked about a little in this thread. I think they're really cool and want to use them, but their rules seem super awkward.

Are they competitively viable? if so how do you field them?

They have had multiple appearances even on top tables. You basically use them instead of lootas as they require a grot shield to work. Use turn one to bring them and their gretchin in position somewhere near the center of the board (preferably in cover) and then just shoot away until everything with 24" is gone or they die. In general, it's better to move and shoot a good target than stay still and shoot a sub-optimal target.
Alternatively, you can put them in a battlewagon with a unit of gretchin to do the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:
I thought there was a rumor a while back about there being army specific detachments? and I guess what magic number would make them more viable in terms of CP generation. For instance If there was the typical ork warband detachment. 2 HQ and 3 Ork boy units = 7 CP? Would it be viable at that point? or worse would we end up spamming this detachment with 10 man boy squads. What CP generation would it need to be to be 2 HQ and 3 30 man squads?

90 points for 5 CP is still a better deal than 210 for 7 CP. Plus, you don't really want to incentive more than 3x 30 boyz because of chess clocks.

Right now the mix of 3-6 units of gretchin and 3 units of boyz is quite healthy, so both units are good compared to each other. If you improve or nerf one, this balance will topple. What we really need is to have trukk boyz which can replace either.

 flandarz wrote:
You can benefit from Freebooterz if the Transport does (because it transfers ALL Modifiers to the occupants). I believe it's mostly used as a means to get your otherwise slow Gitz into range with their 24" guns. And you can also Loot It to give then a 3+ Save, for a bit more survivability after it pops.

Are you absolutely sure about this? That freeboterz trait is great but confuses me utterly everytime!

Yup. Read Open-Topped.

Been covered multiple times, Open-Topped confers modifiers (exclusively denying the Mobile Fortress anti-modifier) that the transport gains to the occupants.
Occupants are technically NOT benefiting from the Freeboota trait, they are benefiting from Open-Topped sharing it through the wagon/trukk. If it were possible to put nonfreeboota in there they would benefit from it too. Seeing as how its literally the only modifier our codex even has...its also the only rule that actually DOES get shared by open-topped

We actually have 1 more modifier that can be shared by Open-Topped: Long, Uncontrolled Bursts with a Chinork.

Hmm....never thought about that one.
Not 100% sure if that would work since its conditional modifier but off hand it makes sense. I'd have to have that strat infront of me to remember exactly how its worded.

In other news.... Red Gobbo has rules
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/19/da-red-gobbo-legends-rules-for-warhammer-40000/

Overall really kinda crap. Pistol is actually punchy but typical pistol range makes that a moot point, and hes still a grot so super easy to kill despite 3W and5+.
His "gift" ability is stikkbombs on a 2+, causing a mortal wound otherwise. Stikkbombs....really? If that was Tankbusta bombs oh feth yeah lol.

But....is 30pts worth giving grots a 6+ leadership?
edit: nvm just noticed they literally said "will be joining legacy soon" in the article.
Other armies get out of codex releases and we get legacy crap. Nice one GW

Yeah. :(

But for 30 pts, he ain't that bad. Gift ability is garbage (since Grots can't use Extra Stikkbombs), but otherwise? Pretty average.

Not expecting a ton of change in chapter approved mostly waiting for psychic awakening next book to get past the blood angel tyranid push and onto the space wolf vs ork book and hope for the best!

The most relevant info of that article is the confirmation of legends coming in December.

I am thrilled to see how far is GW willing to take the legends book.

Nazgred? Wazdakka? Old Zogg? Just to name a few.

Of couse, expect characters on bikes (aside maybe FW warboss), KFF normal big mek...

What else?

Lol Da Red Gobbo is yet another slap in our green faces. First new model for our faction all year, can't use it in tournament play (despite it being awful). Legends is going to gut our faction from the meta entirely. I haven't seen a list without index choices finish in the top 4 since before the marine meta. The sisters look broken too. Welcome to 8.5 edition, only another 18 months to wait until we get decent rules, if our wait for a codex is anything to go by.

MA warboss, big gunz, buggy, skorcha and wartrakk are sure to go as well.

Also note it might clean up with a lot of index wargear shenanigans.

 Jidmah wrote:


Also note it might clean up with a lot of index wargear shenanigans.

AKA bye bye Deathskullz brigades with cheap Kustom Mega Blastas (meks and koptas) spam.

Yeah orks are easily the main army hurt by the legacy thing. I cant think of any other army that has more than 3 things that are Legacy only, and we have 8(10)
(MABoss, Bikeboss, KFF Mek, Bike Mek, Painboy Bike, Wartrakk, Warbuggy, Big Guns, and if you wanna count them Zogwort/Wazdakka).
I dont think the 3 looted vehicle profiles count as Legacy since they have no point costs.

 flandarz wrote:
Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.

Sadly I am not exaggerating in the slightest :( I faced off against a Tau onion of death (50 Firewarriors) I tried to assault it, he had the buff character near it which gave it 150 shots as Tau sept so hitting on 5s. He rolled slightly above average hits like 60ish and wounding on 3s meant he wiped the unit out in overwatch. An onion of death is basically an assault proof unit so long as you don't get a strategy that lets you avoid overwatch.

That is when I decided I had to take a loota bomb to counter the tau onion of death and a bunch of other factions ridiculous tactics. The next time I met that player in a tournament he tried the same thing, I double shot my Lootas with exploding 5s and wiped out his onion turn 1 along with a broadside suit. Turn 2 I assaulted him and it was basically GG.

I never saw KMB koptas nor mini meks as a worthwhile investments of my points. You are getting +2 CP for spending over 200 points on six ~BS4 shots...

I'm actually surprised they gave above average stats for the Red Gobbo, he's still not great but at least he's flavourful for narrative games and I personally laugh at how he can kill a grot unit he's passing out the stikkbombs to.