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Doohicky wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I wonder if this is finally going to get people thinking about how ludicrous primaris statlines and stuff are getting. Everybody kind of laughs it off when you point out how they get more attacks than eldar aspect warriors, so, how we feeling about 2 more attacks than a custode bike?

Do Custodes not get shock assault (sorry I rarely play against them)? If they do then it is only 1 less. And then only on a charge.

It still is ridiculous the buffing they are getting though.

No they don't so these things as they are, are better at CC than a Custode FFS.

These things will have to be in the Custodes Jetbike points range yo be vlose to reasonable. Thats such a massive amount of points for 3 models I can't see GW not underpointing them massively as the current bikers are not even half that points.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They could have doubled everything and we'd all be playing 3k just to get most of our toys back.

And?

What does that have to do with anything? The point limit can be 10k, wouldn't matter so long as everything is balanced relatively.

Doubling the points wouldn't balance things, it'd just push us to play even higher points totals without addressing the relative balance between factions.

You really need to do a better job following topics. The increase was billed as an attempt to create room for granularity.

And I pointed out that it'd do little to fix the game since people would up the points level they play to keep their combos going, and since we know that a straight doubling in points wouldn't solve the balance issues it means some units wouldn't quite double, while others would go up even further leading to more complaining about the points increases being done unfairly.

Inventing scenarios that ultimately lead to the same end result doesn't solve anything by the way. You're just inventing reasons to complain that GW did it "wrong" while ignoring that it'd still be where it is now, only with bigger numbers attached to everything.

My bet is vastly underpointed at release, followed by a 10-15 points per model hike in CA 2020, accompanied by a "lol sorry not sorry" message about how they received testing feedback that the bikes were overtuned but decided not to do anything about it.

Doohicky wrote:
Do Custodes not get shock assault (sorry I rarely play against them)?

They don't get shock assault, and they don't get bolter discipline either. Those were pushed to marines and marines only, when marines were struggling. And now, marines got so much more on top of it that it's ridiculous.

 godswildcard wrote:
Why does every new vehicle for the imperium in 40K have to have a ‘bellicose machine spirit’?

Like, why do the bikers have to ‘dominate’ their bikes? Why couldn’t you build a bike without AI?

I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!

The definition of bellicose is "... someone who is bellicose enjoys fighting or arguing...". Would you rather go to war with a machine spirit that's a pacifist?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Because that's the entire purpose of points....

I think it's that time of day where you need more coffee

Points allow us to ensure whole armies are roughly equivalent, not individual units in completely different factions It's never created a fair comparison between individual units.

You just contradicted yourself entirely when you take a minute to think it through. If I am playing army X and you Y, then the entire rosters are unalike lol.

More coffee for sure.

Yes, you do need more coffee.

The point of points is to allow two wildly different armies to meet at a relatively equivilant strength. It allows for some comparison between units that share rules (like Intercessors vs Scouts vs Tacticals) but it's never really worked as a way to compare different units between armies (such as Cultists vs Intercessors) since those units have little to no common baseline in rules, much less wargear or stats.

Mate I am not the one called out every other day, who then claims it early and in need of caffeine when it's mid day.

Again, your contradicting yourself between posts.

What your saying also makes no sense. Your claiming internal balance justifies external imbalance which is daft. It might not be your intention but it's what your doing. The goal is to have two armies regardless of faction equivalent, you can't do that without internal balance.

Your argument boils down to saying its OK for one unit to be bad and another too good so long as the end result comes out roughly level to another army. That only works when you can't build unique armies. This is what is contradictory.

you really don't understand how points work.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
Do Custodes not get shock assault (sorry I rarely play against them)?

They don't get shock assault, and they don't get bolter discipline either. Those were pushed to marines and marines only, when marines were struggling. And now, marines got so much more on top of it that it's ridiculous.

I'm fine with them not having either since they could have other stuff baked in instead, but GW really needs to sit down and rethink how the whole Talons faction works because as it stands neither half of it is well executed.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Interestingly the outrider statline is the same than the old school attack bike. So one could reasonably use an outrider model converted to have attack bike weapons to represent an attack bike.

They are going to be about 40 points and GW have lost the plot.

Doohicky wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I wonder if this is finally going to get people thinking about how ludicrous primaris statlines and stuff are getting. Everybody kind of laughs it off when you point out how they get more attacks than eldar aspect warriors, so, how we feeling about 2 more attacks than a custode bike?

Do Custodes not get shock assault (sorry I rarely play against them)? If they do then it is only 1 less. And then only on a charge.

It still is ridiculous the buffing they are getting though.

Custodes bikes only have 4 attacks, and no “shock assault” mechanic. A normal custodian has 3 attacks. Intercessors have 3 as well, because shock assault triggers on charges AND being charged. With doctrines Primaris shoot better and have equivalent melee, right now the only place Custodes are better is toughness and an extra wound (and save, but that’s wargear-based).

I’m not upset that Primaris feel like space marines; but Custodes are fluffwise vastly superior to space marines in offense and defense, something that isn’t reflected on the tabletop and makes the points disparity between them seem unfair.

Is there currently a way for marine bikes to fall back and charge again? Because they double their number of attacks on the charge, so being charged or charging would make a big difference.

"It's very important to keep in mind both what a faction is good at, and what a faction is not good at. After all, it wouldn't be fun if you could move, shoot, fight, and do everything the best! So for necrons, they're highly resilient, but they're a little bit slow - I mean you can build some units with good mobility, but not that many."

"Yes, yes of course stu, that is all very important to creating a game that's fun for everyone involved. So, what's our next topic?"

"Well next we're going to talk about the new space marine bikes!"

Someone somewhere is aware of the irony present in these warhammer daily segments, and I am loving their sense of humor.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Because that's the entire purpose of points....

I think it's that time of day where you need more coffee

Points allow us to ensure whole armies are roughly equivalent, not individual units in completely different factions It's never created a fair comparison between individual units.

You just contradicted yourself entirely when you take a minute to think it through. If I am playing army X and you Y, then the entire rosters are unalike lol.

More coffee for sure.

Yes, you do need more coffee.

The point of points is to allow two wildly different armies to meet at a relatively equivilant strength. It allows for some comparison between units that share rules (like Intercessors vs Scouts vs Tacticals) but it's never really worked as a way to compare different units between armies (such as Cultists vs Intercessors) since those units have little to no common baseline in rules, much less wargear or stats.

Mate I am not the one called out every other day, who then claims it early and in need of caffeine when it's mid day.

Again, your contradicting yourself between posts.

What your saying also makes no sense. Your claiming internal balance justifies external imbalance which is daft. It might not be your intention but it's what your doing. The goal is to have two armies regardless of faction equivalent, you can't do that without internal balance.

Your argument boils down to saying its OK for one unit to be bad and another too good so long as the end result comes out roughly level to another army. That only works when you can't build unique armies.

you really don't understand how points work.

You're off your rocker and creating positions I'm not taking. I'm saying that points have never made for good 1:1 comparisons between different units in different books. 40k falls apart at low levels because of this, which is why people rarely played below 1k in the past, and 1.5k was held as the point where armies generally started to trade blows on more equal footing.

I'm not saying that anything is okay, I'm saying the comparison is pointless because the game doesn't work at that level. It's never worked at that level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Is there currently a way for marine bikes to fall back and charge again? Because they double their number of attacks on the charge, so being charged or charging would make a big difference.

Make them White Scars IIRC.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Is there currently a way for marine bikes to fall back and charge again? Because they double their number of attacks on the charge, so being charged or charging would make a big difference.

You could just be white scars, and do that all the time.

WS also have the 1cp strat to allow them to move 20" and charge. That's 2" more than the no-man's land in the new board size isn't it?

So guaranteed turn 1 charge with 19 attacks and can be charging every single marine turn. Hmm.

So if we assume 2 wounds for each rider +2 for the vehicle, does that mean the ATV will have 6 wounds?

Two EXTRA attacks on the charge? Doesn't that seem a bit ridiculous? Better hope the Sarge doesn't get access to melee weapons!

the_scotsman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Is there currently a way for marine bikes to fall back and charge again? Because they double their number of attacks on the charge, so being charged or charging would make a big difference.

You could just be white scars, and do that all the time.

WS also have the 1cp strat to allow them to move 20" and charge. That's 2" more than the no-man's land in the new board size isn't it?

So guaranteed turn 1 charge with 19 attacks and can be charging every single marine turn. Hmm.

Woah, that's... that's... I'm not very enthusiastic about this. Especially with T5 5W 3+ saves models, meaning even with flamers they won't even fear overwatch...

I'm not off my rocker. You basically wonder off topic constantly and contradict yourself.

It's literally right there in your posts.

I was talking about granularity and you somehow started talking about internal and external balance, and hilariously contradicted yourself.

Points are REQUIRED to have the same value between players armies, regardless of faction. Which means they need to have both internal and external balance.

the_scotsman wrote:
"It's very important to keep in mind both what a faction is good at, and what a faction is not good at. After all, it wouldn't be fun if you could move, shoot, fight, and do everything the best! So for necrons, they're highly resilient, but they're a little bit slow - I mean you can build some units with good mobility, but not that many."

"Yes, yes of course stu, that is all very important to creating a game that's fun for everyone involved. So, what's our next topic?"

"Well next we're going to talk about the new space marine bikes!"

Someone somewhere is aware of the irony present in these warhammer daily segments, and I am loving their sense of humor.

Did you notice when they pivoted to Space Marines, they described them as a "jack of all trades," without the "masters of none" bit on the end?

A freudian slip, or a rare bit of accuracy in GW hypespeak? Either way, it made me laugh.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Two EXTRA attacks on the charge? Doesn't that seem a bit ridiculous? Better hope the Sarge doesn't get access to melee weapons!

That's in addition to shock assault lol.

They probably get extra shots when they shoot too


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
"It's very important to keep in mind both what a faction is good at, and what a faction is not good at. After all, it wouldn't be fun if you could move, shoot, fight, and do everything the best! So for necrons, they're highly resilient, but they're a little bit slow - I mean you can build some units with good mobility, but not that many."

"Yes, yes of course stu, that is all very important to creating a game that's fun for everyone involved. So, what's our next topic?"

"Well next we're going to talk about the new space marine bikes!"

Someone somewhere is aware of the irony present in these warhammer daily segments, and I am loving their sense of humor.

Did you notice when they pivoted to Space Marines, they described them as a "jack of all trades," without the "masters of none" bit on the end?

A freudian slip, or a rare bit of accuracy in GW hypespeak? Either way, it made me laugh.

If you have been paying attention lately you know full well GW has decided to make them jack of all trades, master of all trades. Thats the issue.

That's no bike, that's a battle tank.

 Red Corsair wrote:

If you have been paying attention lately you know full well GW has decided to make them jack of all trades, master of all trades. Thats the issue.

That was the joke...I'll get my coat.

 Red Corsair wrote:
They probably get extra shots when they shoot too

Devastating discipline: whenever you use shoot a weapon that benefit from the bolter discipline rule, you get to shoot it twice!

They mentioned that armies all have stuff the fall short on, so leaving it as "Jack of All Trades" was more the assumption people would understand how that saying ends.

Primaris armies seem like they're going to be getting a lot smaller to fit in the bikes and other melee units.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Indomitus box was a 1k-1.5k army for each side.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
They probably get extra shots when they shoot too

Devastating discipline: whenever you use shoot a weapon that benefit from the bolter discipline rule, you get to shoot it twice!

No no no, you get to shoot twice, but only if you move. That makes it balanced.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They mentioned that armies all have stuff the fall short on, so leaving it as "Jack of All Trades" was more the assumption people would understand how that saying ends.

Primaris armies seem like they're going to be getting a lot smaller to fit in the bikes and other melee units.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Indomitus box was a 1k-1.5k army for each side.

Stream said both sides were close to 50 PL.

Remains to be seen if fighting with the box contents actually gives you a reasonably balanced match-up

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
They probably get extra shots when they shoot too

Devastating discipline: whenever you use shoot a weapon that benefit from the bolter discipline rule, you get to shoot it twice!

No no no, you get to shoot twice, but only if you move. That makes it balanced.

Those are bikes. They already get to use bolter discipline when they move, remember?
LOL

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They mentioned that armies all have stuff the fall short on, so leaving it as "Jack of All Trades" was more the assumption people would understand how that saying ends.

Primaris armies seem like they're going to be getting a lot smaller to fit in the bikes and other melee units.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Indomitus box was a 1k-1.5k army for each side.

Stream said both sides were close to 50 PL.

Remains to be seen if fighting with the box contents actually gives you a reasonably balanced match-up

I'm not familar with how that generally translates to points. What is that, about 1k?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They mentioned that armies all have stuff the fall short on, so leaving it as "Jack of All Trades" was more the assumption people would understand how that saying ends.

Primaris armies seem like they're going to be getting a lot smaller to fit in the bikes and other melee units.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Indomitus box was a 1k-1.5k army for each side.

Stream said both sides were close to 50 PL.

Remains to be seen if fighting with the box contents actually gives you a reasonably balanced match-up

I'm not familar with how that generally translates to points. What is that, about 1k?

There abouts by their reckoning.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They mentioned that armies all have stuff the fall short on, so leaving it as "Jack of All Trades" was more the assumption people would understand how that saying ends.

Primaris armies seem like they're going to be getting a lot smaller to fit in the bikes and other melee units.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Indomitus box was a 1k-1.5k army for each side.

Stream said both sides were close to 50 PL.

Remains to be seen if fighting with the box contents actually gives you a reasonably balanced match-up

I'm not familar with how that generally translates to points. What is that, about 1k?

Yes he said 52 then corrected to 50 then said approximately.

It's not exactly looking great for anyone playing another army in 9th having fun matchups vrs Marines dialing it up to 14 on the power creep 0-10 scale.