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in a 4000 point apoc game if you run nothing but fliers ( bombers gunships fighters est ) how well would you do if your opponent didnt know about it?

lets just say your useing ig sm meqs sis of battle flyers to make things easyer


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also what would you run in that list?


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also messed up this was supposed to be on 40k disscution not tactics -_-

You'd lose automatically as per the rulebook FAQ.

*EDIT*

That sounds like a troll comment, but it's totally true.

Flyers arent broken, just some of them are massively undercosted. Ork flyers are nigh perfect for their cost, Dark eldar flyers are slightly overcosted. Space marine flyers are arguably around the mark, and necron/CSM/IG flyers are too cheap.

Well if it's an objective game, an all flyer army could only win through tabling the opponent, and getting first blood.

Start spamming the SM Hyperios Air Defense units...

Problem solved.

It would depend on what they brought, and how quickly you could kill their AA. If you brought 4k worth of fliers and they brought 4k worth of ork boys, you will kill buckets of them, but I doubt anything else would be on the table but green.
They might even have large enough footprints for you to crash and burn if you don't come on the board fast enough.
Also they would probably have enough lootas or rokkets to shoot you out of the sky. It might even be more painful if they bring warpheads and dakkajets.

On the other hand if they brought too many super heavies your jets would probably make short work of them, especially if they don't have an answer for fliers.

I agree 100% with davou

davou wrote:
Flyers arent broken, just some of them are massively undercosted.

And that, is what I call broken.
In a game balanced by points, being too cheap is a problem.
That problem is magnified when the flyer is a transport (necron) or can be fielded in squadrons (IG).

-Matt

Broken was starcannon spam against MEQ/TEQ in 3rd edition. I tabled MEQ armies in 2 turns without trying.

Fliers can effectively be ignored if they are spammed too hard. Which is this case. It will be rock, paper, scissors...you lose first turn cause you are not on the board.

If you bothered to put something on the board pray the enemy didn't field a full army of ADL and fire dragon exarchs or even better hyperios defense platforms and sabre lascannon platforms. Even worse is green tide if the board is too small as you still cannot come within 1" of them, so flying onto the board in zoom means auto crash. It is funny as can be though.

I believe fliers are fine if they are like any other vehicle choice and can only be brought in small number of them in a non-apoc game. The problem is with armies like IG or Crons that can spam them and/or have them as dedicated transports. Its hard for most non-6th armies to deal with 3 or even 6 (double FoC) fliers but its possible. Hard, but possible. But 7, 8, or even twelve fliers?

well im saying for APOC games with thunderhawks raining death from the skies maraduer bombers blowing up everything stuff like this


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also so what you all are saying is that some are and are not broken it all depends on what your useing

 jbsnv wrote:
well im saying for APOC games with thunderhawks raining death from the skies maraduer bombers blowing up everything stuff like this


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also so what you all are saying is that some are and are not broken it all depends on what your useing

Yes.

Necrons aren't so bad, they can bring lots of them, but they are paper thin and rely on reserves.

Vendettas however......purely broken due to point cost and squadrons. Stormravens are the only thing that are comparable but they cost 70 points more and you cant field more than 3 in a single FOC (C:SM), at which point they are also contending with all the other HS support options.

I gotta shut this argument down (or at least try) cuz' Fliers as a category are not broken.

It highly depends on what flier you are talking about and, of the few that are, they each have different reasons why.

Examples:

Helldrake; Oh screw MEQs and Cover. Winning!

Valkyries; ...I can't do it without stat-posting big-time but, equal capacity stats in other armies would be like 200+ points.

Night Scythe (or whatever Necron's call that circular transport); I shot down your aerial transpoort and all your guys in it now take ...oh wait they weren't actually in it

It's not the unit -type- that makes it broken, it's what it does;
off-topic example (and one I use all the time) Eldrad! BAM! Board-wide; all enemy Psychic tests on 3D6 with a perils on anything above 12. Shove him in a D-Cannon unit for T7. Bubble Wrap. -???- Profit.

RancidHate wrote:
I gotta shut this argument down (or at least try) cuz' Fliers as a category are not broken.

It highly depends on what flier you are talking about and, of the few that are, they each have different reasons why.

Examples:

Helldrake; Oh screw MEQs and Cover. Winning!

Valkyries; ...I can't do it without stat-posting big-time but, equal capacity stats in other armies would be like 200+ points.

Night Scythe (or whatever Necron's call that circular transport); I shot down your aerial transpoort and all your guys in it now take ...oh wait they weren't actually in it

It's not the unit -type- that makes it broken, it's what it does;
off-topic example (and one I use all the time) Eldrad! BAM! Board-wide; all enemy Psychic tests on 3D6 with a perils on anything above 12. Shove him in a D-Cannon unit for T7. Bubble Wrap. -???- Profit.

Year eldrad is good for anti psycher... But if you are having problems with beating elder what are you playing I thought they had overtaken tau in 6th as the weakest army.

On topic though I think some flyers (necrons) need points increases but overall not broken as for an all flyer list you lose turn one as nothing is on the boas so you are tables effectively.Though a 50% flyer army might be neat though easily countered by some armies

Heldrake is nowhere near undercosted for its very limited abilities. If you wanna talk undercosted look at a vendetta, maybe a nightscythe. Stormraven is at a perfect price point for what it does, Dakkajet as well. It all depends on your meta and how many power gamers you have.

I honestly wish there was a way to sell out the points for carrying capacity on the Stormraven in order to make it a pure gunship. I know there is the FW Stormeagle but it would be a nice option to have.

 Wingeds wrote:
Heldrake is nowhere near undercosted for its very limited abilities. If you wanna talk undercosted look at a vendetta, maybe a nightscythe. Stormraven is at a perfect price point for what it does, Dakkajet as well. It all depends on your meta and how many power gamers you have.

No way, It gets a torrent baleflamer on a turret that wounds marines on a 2+, ignores cover and ignores standard armor? This alone means its garunteed to kill its points every turn without ever needing to hover.

Then, it goes on to be the only flyer that is able to vector strike (and does so at a higher strength than some of the meaner FMC's can). Don't forget that it also manages to be able to vector strike without having to ever take grounding tests; and even better, the only drawback of vector striking does not effect it, since it counts as a vehicle and can still go on to fire its weapon.

Then, it has a demon save, has hover and av12 on three facings. So not only does it have all of the advantages listed above, but it never has to jink (and lets not forget that it takes something strength 6 or up to even threaten this most of the time) when it is pelted by something, so short of blasting it out on one turn, you have no way to limit its ability to put out damage.

Finally, it is in a slot that competes with almost no good codex choices. You don't even have to give anything up to get this thing on the table!

That gak is abusive starting at the first model you put down; and downright broken beyond that; It needs a 30 point bump in points.

 jbsnv wrote:
in a 4000 point apoc game if you run nothing but fliers ( bombers gunships fighters est ) how well would you do if your opponent didnt know about it?

In my case you'd win by default, because I'd refuse to play this sort of list.

 jbsnv wrote:
in a 4000 point apoc game if you run nothing but fliers ( bombers gunships fighters est ) how well would you do if your opponent didnt know about it?

If you are trying a cheap trick like this to "pull a fast one" on your opponent, you have missed the point of 40K in general and Apocalypse in particular.

With such ideas I'd prefer that you didn't play at all.

 jbsnv wrote:
...if your opponent didnt know about it?

This is the biggest problem with the question. If you run an army composed entirely of one sort of unit, it doesn't matter what the unit is, a balanced army will usually have some trouble against it; not to mention that the whole thing is appallingly bad sportsmanship. There are no cheap auto-win tricks in 40k; learn to play the game and show up with a balanced army, and you'll do just fine without spamming.

At 2K, and higher, I could arguably field a "balanced" IG list and still bring 5-6 vendettas. This is why being so undercosted has so many repercussions.

The thing is at over 2K points, 40K starts to break down anyway. Apocalypse isn't concerned too much with tactics or lists or units, more about dice rolls. At least from my experience.

davou wrote:
Flyers arent broken, just some of them are massively undercosted. Ork flyers are nigh perfect for their cost, Dark eldar flyers are slightly overcosted. Space marine flyers are arguably around the mark, and necron/CSM/IG flyers are too cheap.

And Dark Angels pay a 50-point markup on fliers for no good raisin.

 FerrusFair wrote:

davou wrote:
Flyers arent broken, just some of them are massively undercosted. Ork flyers are nigh perfect for their cost, Dark eldar flyers are slightly overcosted. Space marine flyers are arguably around the mark, and necron/CSM/IG flyers are too cheap.

And Dark Angels pay a 50-point markup on fliers for no good raisin.

Omg I almost died laughing. This must have been a joke, I hope I'm not just being rude.

"I am the greetest! Mwa-ha-ha-ha! Now I am leaving Earth for no raisin!"

 Griddlelol wrote:

 FerrusFair wrote:

davou wrote:
Flyers arent broken, just some of them are massively undercosted. Ork flyers are nigh perfect for their cost, Dark eldar flyers are slightly overcosted. Space marine flyers are arguably around the mark, and necron/CSM/IG flyers are too cheap.

And Dark Angels pay a 50-point markup on fliers for no good raisin.

Omg I almost died laughing. This must have been a joke, I hope I'm not just being rude.

"I am the greetest! Mwa-ha-ha-ha! Now I am leaving Earth for no raisin!"

No worries, it was deliberate. I, too, love Futurama.

Year eldrad is good for anti psycher... But if you are having problems with beating elder what are you playing I thought they had overtaken tau in 6th as the weakest army.

Yea Smiley as an Eldar player I can agree we do have the weakest codex, especially since the former weakest, Tau, are getting a new codex in the next 2 weeks. It's not to say Eldar don't have their uses, especially Eldrad as "battle-brother" support to Tau or Dark Eldar.

6th edition made a lot of Eldar irrelevant (and a lot of their units were over-costed and undersized to begin with) but, the way buffed artillery really helps Eldrad. Let's say you don't much care for Eldar, you could just get 1 random unit of 3 Jetbikes and Eldrad and BAM! Divination Buffs on 3 seperate targets + Boardwide anti-psyker. I use Eldrad everytime I play -because- he is OP. He's an auto-include.

Funny scenario:

Oh, that squad of Grotesques that normally only gets FNP? They now have a 4i save.
That Beastpack of all Clawed Fiends? They also have a 4i save.
Also, that squad the Beastpack is now 5 inches away from has to re-roll their -passed- saves.

Other guy, " "

The BT, Sisters, and BA are all weaker than the current Eldar or Tau atm, I think.

blood angels are not where they were in 5th but are above and still a mid teir army.

black templar are a lower teir army but can still do some good lists and you have the landraider crusader spam option which is pretty good but pricey to play.

sisters are actually pretty good and again a mid teir army their new white dwarf codex lacked much imagination but it did knock em up the power curve a bit.

tau even got more powerful with precition shots. broadside shas'vre being a character means you can poof away somethign with a precition shot. they are still low teir but then again their new codex is a few weeks away.

Well back to the original point, flyers aren't broken just because they're fliers.

Now about the HellTurkey...

F the HellTurkey!

its broken in a sense that you can take more than 3. due to squands in some codexes....
if 1 codex can take a squad... all CODEXES SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE SQUADS.
3 dakkajets v 9 vendettas..
seems hardly unbroken to me...