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Not including allies, I'm debating what is a better method to add lascannons for Chaos.
Oblits have the lowest density of lascannons per point and only a 50% fire rate. Havocs have the highest density per point but are the least durable platform if you keep them cheap. Predators are in the middle for firepower but suffer all issues being armor.

Lascannon havocs are awesome. I might be tempted to add MoN, VotLW or a extra wound catcher to make up the survivability but they are still cheap and nice.

Oblits are best mainly because they are versatile and only have lascannon la when you need to reach out and touch high av.

In terms of sheer number it'll be Havocs > Triple Las Pred > Obliterators

If you're really worried about high av then go for a unit of havocs (get 7, I find it gives them enough wound catchers) with quad las cannons and then get a triple las pred. I still run CSM with Rhinos, despite how fragile they have become so I have good armor saturation. Park the Pred in behind some cover for an obscured 5+ at the very least. AV 13 is still pretty damn hard to crack.

To make sure the havocs don't get focus fired you can either have a second squad of them or rush up some dangerous troop units in rhinos with melta to make people think once or twice about what they target.

I find VotLW a near mandatory upgrade for havocs and oblits.

I like the LC havocs but I'm worried that they get expensive fast if you make them more durable whereas the Predator in cover is a fairly well rounded option.

For havocs, simply buy the fearless icon, no need for vet.

Havocs are your best bet for lascannons, with predators and obliterators coming in a close second.

 juraigamer wrote:
For havocs, simply buy the fearless icon, no need for vet.

100% Disagreement. A 7-man havoc squad will cost you 7 points to give them Veterans of the Long War and make them Leadership 10. The Fearless Icon is MUCH more than that.

 juraigamer wrote:

Havocs are your best bet for lascannons, with predators and obliterators coming in a close second.

Agreed, but I prefer the versatility of the Obliterators. I might not need lascannons every turn!

Fearless doesn't roll for falling back, vets do, vets can run, fearless units can't. For a small price increase, you make sure that while your havoc's are alive, they are shooting.

You should always have at least 10 guys in a havoc squad, the 5 guys and champ in front, the 4 cannons and icon in the back.

I'll gladly pay a tiny tax to make sure my guys stay put.

 minigun762 wrote:
Not including allies, I'm debating what is a better method to add lascannons for Chaos.
Oblits have the lowest density of lascannons per point and only a 50% fire rate. Havocs have the highest density per point but are the least durable platform if you keep them cheap. Predators are in the middle for firepower but suffer all issues being armor.

If you're looking for volume of fire from lascannons, the havocs are probably the best. A predator can be put down with one shot, while havocs can survive losing a few guys.

The best plan is to jam them in a bastion. Then they cannot be targeted and they are fearless. So you don't need to bloat the squad for survival or take any upgrades to their leadership. If you position the bastion correctly you should have excellent fields of fire. This all works as you can fire 2 models out of each fire point on a building.

The case for obliterators is that they are much more versatile. You can deep strike them to use their melta and multi-melta weapons to reliably put down armor. If you're shooting at non-vehicle targets and want lascannons specifically, the havocs are probably better.

The other way to maximize your lascannon output would be to take a Tzeentch herald with some pink horrors. Have them man the quad gun on top of the bastion and cast prescience on the havoc squad inside the bastion.

 kronk wrote:
I might not need lascannons every turn!

There's always that turn when you wish you could have them again.

 juraigamer wrote:
Fearless doesn't roll for falling back, vets do, vets can run, fearless units can't. For a small price increase, you make sure that while your havoc's are alive, they are shooting.

You should always have at least 10 guys in a havoc squad, the 5 guys and champ in front, the 4 cannons and icon in the back.

I'll gladly pay a tiny tax to make sure my guys stay put.

I guess that's just our different play-styles, which is fine!

I like my havocs cheap. 7 man with auto-cannons, VofLW and done. I don't consider the Icon a "tiny tax"!

 juraigamer wrote:
For havocs, simply buy the fearless icon, no need for vet.

Havocs are your best bet for lascannons, with predators and obliterators coming in a close second.

and lose the ability to go to ground?

It's really nice to go to ground against massive fire one turn and then snapshot flyers next turn

In addition to the already excellent feedback (oblits, havocs, triple-lascannon preds), I also like to run 1 or 2 objective camping las-plas CSM squads of 10 troopers.

They sit back with my preds, oblits, and havocs and take potshots and their champ(s) with powerfist(s) can defend those more shooty elements from any attackers that make it to my line.


Night Lords,
"The quick and the dead."

 Mr. Voidness wrote:
It's really nice to go to ground against massive fire one turn and then snapshot flyers next turn

with str9 AP2 weapons that can down anyhting

I was originally leaning towards the predator for additional armor saturation but the two examples of using bastions or ADL with havocs are very intriguing.

Don't forget the IoV can die and you lose fearless. Sucks when it's supposed to be an ablative wound.

I like the predator to be honest, for havocs I go with auto canons. The predator can redeploy midfield up flank turn one and threaten side armor if needed. I just love its cheap cost in the new dex.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Don't forget the IoV can die and you lose fearless. Sucks when it's supposed to be an ablative wound.

I like the predator to be honest, for havocs I go with auto canons. The predator can redeploy midfield up flank turn one and threaten side armor if needed. I just love its cheap cost in the new dex.

the dude with the icon can have the las cannon right?

I never can bring myself to go triple lascannon with the predator these days due to the sheer number of foot troops. I stick with the twin link LC but bring HB sponsons in case someone starts getting too close. I park as far away as I can and use the twin linked LC to snipe armor and MC. I used to bring a LC in a chosen squad full of plasma and meltas but they lost infiltrate and unless I'm bringing Huron I don't bother with chosen much anymore, though it still is an option. The problem with Havocs as a source of LC is that it feels like a waste when the LC DOES do its job and blows up the target in one shot and the rest of the squad just stands around aimlessly for the turn. If I run them in my havocs it's usually two LCs mixed with two ML or two AC. And there's really no reason to upgrade the havocs too much, as I stay WAY the hell away from everything with them. The only time they run into trouble is with flyers and failed ML flak shots. In that case it's better IMO to run ML and AC than LC anyway. More volume of fire = more chances to hit. LCs and their one die just is not enough with my terrible rolling skills.

PS: Front armor of 13 on the Pred is NICE, don't underestimate it, just don't let them flank you.

If I wasn't going to use full LC Predator, I think I'd go with a true hybrid version with AC/LC and Havoc Missile addition.

5 shots @ 48" that can almost always find something worthwhile to target.

ooh now that's an interesting idea, using the mix like that, do you have an MC to smash AV14 if nescessary? because if you do then I would say go for the mix, maybe even the flakk upgrade

 minigun762 wrote:
I find VotLW a near mandatory upgrade for havocs and oblits.

I don't. With their squad leader they're already leadership 9 (For CSM, I understand why you'd put it on obliterators). That's extremely good. You'll most likely have that squad leader surviving considering you need to roll a 6 from a sniper/character and then wound, and then you have to fail an armor and a lookout sir. I'll take those odds.

The only time you're really in danger of losing the squad leader is in assault. But I assume that if your havocs are being assaulted then it's already over for them.

I think the biggest trap of Codex: CSM is spending points on small upgrades all across the board. I'll put VotlW on assault squads or rhino rush squads that I want to stick around to get into CC or to get close for a melta shot, but otherwise I leave it off.

I like 10 Havocs, with 4 Lascannons, behind an Aegis line.

Barrywise wrote:
ooh now that's an interesting idea, using the mix like that, do you have an MC to smash AV14 if nescessary? because if you do then I would say go for the mix, maybe even the flakk upgrade

I reread my post and realized I might not have been clear.

I was referring to a Predator with autocannon turret, lascannon sponsons and the havoc missile launcher upgrade. Nice and cheap with lots of long range shooting.

Oh ok I see what you're saying, I feel like the missile launcher just can't compare to auto cannons though. Paying extra to lose a shot but increase S by 1 just isn't worth it. Also have you tried a forgefiend as AA? Using its daemon forge power with prescience can absolutely wreck flyers

Barrywise wrote:
Oh ok I see what you're saying, I feel like the missile launcher just can't compare to auto cannons though. Paying extra to lose a shot but increase S by 1 just isn't worth it. Also have you tried a forgefiend as AA? Using its daemon forge power with prescience can absolutely wreck flyers

I agree with your assessment on missile launchers. The reason to take them is because you need flakk missiles for anti-flyer shooting.
As for the Forgefiend, I agree that it's a good backup AA choice like the AC Havocs.

Just 7/8 Havocs with VotLW, the weapons and nothing else should do nicely. The Fearless icon would be nice, but for two things:

1) as mentioned, it can be killed. You'll wind up picking it off before a heavy weapon anyway.
2) Failing Leadership 9 isn't terribly likely. By the time you've taken the Champ away you're already looking at losing heavy weapons, so you're already under concentrated fire. Alternatively, if you're worried about them getting caught in combat and swept - you're looking at a heavy unit in combat. At that point you can likely kiss goodbye to them being useful for the rest of the game anyway.

Honestly, I'd rather pick up a Mark of Nurgle than the Icon. Make them tougher to kill in the first place.

Mark of nurgle makes havocs expensive quick. I have ran 7 man squad with MON and autocannons and they still drop like flies. They are a priority target....so lascannons makes them higher in addition to being alot more costly points wise. I would stick with the predator as AV 13 is not so bad and immune to small arms fire. Not to mention it cant run away...

Even if you went the TL LC turrent route its only 140 for three lassconnons, one being TL. BS4 not too shabby IMO. I dont have the book in front of me but i belive its about 200+ for 7 man squad and 4 LC and MON.

 Kasrkin52 wrote:
Mark of nurgle makes havocs expensive quick. I have ran 7 man squad with MON and autocannons and they still drop like flies. They are a priority target....so lascannons makes them higher in addition to being alot more costly points wise. I would stick with the predator as AV 13 is not so bad and immune to small arms fire. Not to mention it cant run away...

Even if you went the TL LC turrent route its only 140 for three lassconnons, one being TL. BS4 not too shabby IMO. I dont have the book in front of me but i belive its about 200+ for 7 man squad and 4 LC and MON.

7 MoN Havocs with 4 Lascannons is 202, 209 with VotLW.

Really depends what your armor saturation is, and where you have to put your guys. Havocs in ruins with a good field of fire, can go to ground and if your list is all infantry leave your opponenent with few targets for his AT. If you dont have that kind of field of fire cover and have everything in rhinos and walkers having the predator is very nice.

Chaos has a couple extra places to get Lascannon shots besides the Heavy Support Section.

- Chosen can have a Lascannon in 5 man squads for relatively cheap (And can be troops with Abby).
- Dread/Helbrute with a Twin-Linked Lascannon isn't a terrible idea.
- Aegis Defense Line with Icarus Lascannon works really well with just about everything.

Also, you can ally with IG for heavy weapon teams, a Vendetta and Vet or Line squads with lascannons, and bringing a CCS lets you use Bring it Down or Fire on My Target.