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Are they bumbling pawns in the game of the Ruinous powers? Or crafty men and occasionally women that can trick even Tzeentch when the situation demands? And how are them kept free from taint?

Also I wonder about their identities. Who can they be? There are no stupid suggestiongs (okay there are several like suggesting Sly Marbo or Ciaphas Cain just for fun).

I imagine them to be very cunning for their own gain much like Little Finger and the likes from Game of Thrones who will have their own various spies, gathering as much knowledge as possible, as the rulebook states, knowledge is power.

Alpharius and Sly Marbo, ofcourse.
Actually, I do wonder how they get promoted/found/etc.

A bunch of dirty politicians and cowards who have no real power.

Inquisitor Czevak wrote:
You are not free whose freedom is won by the sacrifice of other, more honorable men. You are merely protected. You suck the honorable man dry and offer nothing in return.

Power should go to the ones who deserve it; not to the scions of decadent aristocracies and ignorant bureaucrats.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
A bunch of dirty politicians and cowards who have no real power.

Inquisitor Czevak wrote:
You are not free whose freedom is won by the sacrifice of other, more honorable men. You are merely protected. You suck the honorable man dry and offer nothing in return.

Power should go to the ones who deserve it; not to the scions of decadent aristocracies and ignorant bureaucrats.

How do you decide whose earned it?

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
A bunch of dirty politicians and cowards who have no real power.

Inquisitor Czevak wrote:
You are not free whose freedom is won by the sacrifice of other, more honorable men. You are merely protected. You suck the honorable man dry and offer nothing in return.

Power should go to the ones who deserve it; not to the scions of decadent aristocracies and ignorant bureaucrats.

How do you decide whose earned it?

We keep the Lord of the Imperial Administration, the Representatives of the Imperial Astropath Corps and the Navigator Houses, the Fabricator-General, and add the Lord Commanders and the Lord Admirals along with the Captain-General of the Custodians. If any Primarch returns, they get a place (no Space Marines). Kick out the meddling priest, the gutless assassin, etc.

I find the High Lords doing their job allright.

I mean, it's almost impossible to rule the Imperium, and they manage to.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I find the High Lords doing their job allright.

I mean, it's almost impossible to rule the Imperium, and they manage to.

Sure they do. I'm also sure both the Emperor and Malcador would be appalled at how well run the Imperium is.

Admiral Valerian wrote:The War Council is a good example - the Primarchs and the Imperial Army Lord Commanders.

Firstly, the Primarchs were born into those positions. Considering that Lorgar (who cared more about building chapels than making war) and Magnus (who cared more about reading than making war) had spots on it, I'd say it wasn't really earned.

Secondly, would they even be good rulers? Just because a General is good at killing people doesn't mean he'd make a good ruler. He could be a terrible ruler.

See above. I edited.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I find the High Lords doing their job allright.

I mean, it's almost impossible to rule the Imperium, and they manage to.

Sure they do. I'm also sure both the Emperor and Malcador would be appalled at how well run the Imperium is.

They had the Space Marine Legions, and weren't assailed from all sides.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I find the High Lords doing their job allright.

I mean, it's almost impossible to rule the Imperium, and they manage to.

Sure they do. I'm also sure both the Emperor and Malcador would be appalled at how well run the Imperium is.

They had the Space Marine Legions, and weren't assailed from all sides.

They were also relatively forward-thinking men, something that cannot be said for the High Lords. A forward-thinker is a 'heretic', after all...

The Emperor wrote:
Verona's work was never meant for darkness. Humanity is the same. Only when it is free of a religion that teaches us not to question will we see its true brilliance.

Oh the irony. The Emperor wanted men to think, to look forward and aspire to the future...but his 'divinely-appointed' regents want men to be ignorant and to simply rot under them.

The High Lords are having a tough job. Keeping the Eclessiarchy in check, making sure no whole sectors disappear. Poor them!

The Emperor wanted men to think. Thinking, however, will probably stop the worshipping of the Emperor, wich is what is keeping the Imperium together.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
A bunch of dirty politicians and cowards who have no real power.

Inquisitor Czevak wrote:
You are not free whose freedom is won by the sacrifice of other, more honorable men. You are merely protected. You suck the honorable man dry and offer nothing in return.

Power should go to the ones who deserve it; not to the scions of decadent aristocracies and ignorant bureaucrats.

How do you decide whose earned it?

We keep the Lord of the Imperial Administration, the Representatives of the Imperial Astropath Corps and the Navigator Houses, the Fabricator-General, and add the Lord Commanders and the Lord Admirals along with the Captain-General of the Custodians. If any Primarch returns, they get a place (no Space Marines). Kick out the meddling priest, the gutless assassin, etc.

Alright, so you kick out the Ecclesiarch?

He controls the Adeptus Ministorum, which controls all the preachers and priests in the Imperium. They have their own private army, the Adepta Sororitas. They rule entire planets, known as Cardinal worlds. They've burned billions of souls for heresy.

The Ecclesiarch will kill you. Considering he owns multiple worlds, he can probably hire a lot of assassins. He can bribe your own men to turn them against you. He can bribe other High Lords to turn against you. If he wants, he can have you publicly declared a traitor and executed. And if you try to act against him, you might just spark a civil war, and go down in history as the heretical High Lord who nearly destroyed the Imperium.

And what about the Grand Master of Officio Assassinorum? Its pretty obvious what he'd do.

In the end, ruling comes down to keeping important people happy. When you start pissing off important people because, "They haven't earned their positions" (even though they probably did, through politicking and backstabbing though), your reign is going to be a short one.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Alright, so you kick out the Ecclesiarch?

He controls the Adeptus Ministorum, which controls all the preachers and priests in the Imperium. They have their own private army, the Adepta Sororitas. They rule entire planets, known as Cardinal worlds. They've burned billions of souls for heresy.

The Ecclesiarch will kill you. Considering he owns multiple worlds, he can probably hire a lot of assassins. He can bribe your own men to turn them against you. He can bribe other High Lords to turn against you. If he wants, he can have you publicly declared a traitor and executed. And if you try to act against him, you might just spark a civil war, and go down in history as the heretical High Lord who nearly destroyed the Imperium.

And what about the Grand Master of Officio Assassinorum? Its pretty obvious what he'd do.

In the end, ruling comes down to keeping important people happy. When you start pissing off important people because, "They haven't earned their positions" (even though they probably did, through politicking and backstabbing though), your reign is going to be a short one.

Not if the one who boots them off the council is the Emperor himself. The Emperor hates religion. Heck, even Bile of all people calls the Imperium out on this. And assassins aren't even supposed to operate in the open. They're the thousand blades of death in the shadows; they should be under the Captain-General's or the Emperor's direct command.

Sure, the Emperor hates religion. So what?
It is what is keeping the Imperium together

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Sure, the Emperor hates religion. So what?
It is what is keeping the Imperium together

Uh-huh. And he burned a city and humiliated a Lorgar to prove the point. I don't think he'd mind burning down the Imperium, disappearing into the shadows, and then starting over again after a few millennia.

Because the Nids, Orks, Necrons, Chaos and what all else will be happy to sit back and wait for that, right?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Are they bumbling pawns in the game of the Ruinous powers? Or crafty men and occasionally women that can trick even Tzeentch when the situation demands? And how are them kept free from taint?

Also I wonder about their identities. Who can they be? There are no stupid suggestiongs (okay there are several like suggesting Sly Marbo or Ciaphas Cain just for fun).

They direct the really, really high levels of the Imperium and make very, very broad strategic and political decisions. The Imperium is far too large for them to micromanage to any degree at all.

The Imperium is Humanity's last hope for survival against the Old Night. If the Emperor came back, burned it all down... well, Humanity is done for. If the Xenos don't get them, Chaos will. Alone, the Emperor, as a man, can do nothing significant to stop the many threats that assail the Imperium.

Like it or not, it is the faith of uncounted trillions of Imperial citizens that keeps the Imperium together and moving along. He may have hated religion, but, in the end, he attempted to keep people (Primarchs, especially) ignorant, and so they were badly-equipped to handle Chaos when they encountered it.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Imperium is Humanity's last hope for survival against the Old Night. If the Emperor came back, burned it all down... well, Humanity is done for. If the Xenos don't get them, Chaos will. Alone, the Emperor, as a man, can do nothing significant to stop the many threats that assail the Imperium.

Like it or not, it is the faith of uncounted trillions of Imperial citizens that keeps the Imperium together and moving along. He may have hated religion, but, in the end, he attempted to keep people (Primarchs, especially) ignorant, and so they were badly-equipped to handle Chaos when they encountered it.

Given that new empires that can rival the Tau are cropping up, frequently at the Imperium's expense, all over the place and not one, but two galaxy ending threats in the Tyranids and Necrons are arriving, I think the gotterdammerung of humanity is rapidly approaching.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Uh-huh. And he burned a city and humiliated a Lorgar to prove the point. I don't think he'd mind burning down the Imperium, disappearing into the shadows, and then starting over again after a few millennia.

Luckily for the Imperium he is a rotting corpse, and what he thinks doesn't matter. What the Ecclesiarch says the God-Emperor thinks matters a great deal, though.

One candidate I personally considers is the Imperial Fist Chapter Master Vladimir Pugh, very little is known to him, but if they are competent he might be the Lord Commander Solar of Sol, so I can see him being one as an explanation for that, of course that means the High Lords are in the very edges of being extremely competent political animals.

I think they're less looking to their own ends than looking to the ends of their entire establishment, they're like the Pope, sent to position BY the many rulers of said establishment OF the rulers in regards to who could best look after all of their interests at the time.. (Nepotism is instinctive after all)

At the whole the HLOT must be busy running the Empire. I have wondered about Vladimir Pugh because he is a master logistican, a trait that would be very good to have as a High Lord of Terra.

 LoneLictor wrote:


Alright, so you kick out the Ecclesiarch?

He controls the Adeptus Ministorum, which controls all the preachers and priests in the Imperium. They have their own private army, the Adepta Sororitas. They rule entire planets, known as Cardinal worlds. They've burned billions of souls for heresy.

The Ecclesiarch will kill you. Considering he owns multiple worlds, he can probably hire a lot of assassins. He can bribe your own men to turn them against you. He can bribe other High Lords to turn against you. If he wants, he can have you publicly declared a traitor and executed. And if you try to act against him, you might just spark a civil war, and go down in history as the heretical High Lord who nearly destroyed the Imperium.

Not if the you're the Fabricator-General or have allied with him to curtail the Ecclesiarchy's growing power and infuence; the Assassin Grandmaster (is he on the Council? I thought the assassins were subordinate to the Inquisition) might decide not to interfere because he agrees that the Ecclesiarchy has too much power or can't decide who he should support either way.
Similarly, if you're the Lord Commander of the IG you won't be too worried about a few million Sororitas; and anyone powerful enough to make it to the rank of High Lord will a) have worlds of their own, and b) not be in it for the dosh - at that level, your poison of choice is power, not money - so bribery will not be very effective. Each High Lord will chose sides (or not) based on which side they think will serve their interests best and/or has the clearest advantage.

I mean, the Ecclesiarch is probably the most powerful man on the Council, excepting *maybe* the Fabricator-General, but if you're powerful enough to be a credible threat to his position on the Council. you're not going to get rofl-stomped that easily.

The Ecclesiarch got into conflict with the Lord-inquisitor Karzomyr. Didn't end well from him when he was found to be in error.

I'd of thought after the age of apostasy the grand cardinal (or whatever his title is) would have their power curtailed to a certain degree

He did. It's why the Ecclesiarchy no longer has a standing military other than the Sisters of Battle, who are too small of a military force to pose a threat to the Imperium-at-large without significant support from other agencies.

The Ecclesiarchy is indeed the power behind the throne in 40k. I mean they train and indoctrinates the members of the IOM going from Inquisitor to lowliest soldier. But their influence has waned since they were at their peak with Von Dire. *Strikes the bell and watches Lynata magically appear in the discussion.*