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I've been reading a whole lot of battle reports and have been really poring over the HE book deciding to jump back into them later this year when the release craziness dies off.

What I have noticed is that the new HE have a tendency to beat just about any army if they include a frostheart phoenix with a competitive list. It's still too early to say of course but after looking seriously at the book and the battle reports since they came out they seem to me like they may now be a top tier army and here is why:

1) HE Magic is inexpensive and has an extremely powerful effect. Giving a group of strong cavalry a 5+ ward save is something that was reserved for Brets for a reason.

2) HE troops are inexpensive for what they can accomplish. For example, str. 6, high initiative, high weapon skill, stubborn, extra defense against shooting for a very reasonable cost that can swing in three ranks.

3) Both phoenix's are extremely strong for their cost, what they can do and what slot they take up for the elves. Look at the frostheart, Str 6, T6, 5A, forces ASL and - 1 Str. Ohh wait it also has a 5+ armor and 5+ ward. This can also be buffed based on the highest winds of magic roll. Since it is the highest dice rolled there is a much higher chance or always having a positive effect vs a negative.

4) High elf armies are extremely flexible and they are good to great at any type or army a person wants to create. Want an all chariot army? No problem, we can even throw in some flying chariots. Want a all monster list? How about dragons, griffons, eagles and phoenixes all in the same army. Want strong cavalry? How about ASF core cavalry with good special cavalry as well, they even have special barding. Want strong shooting? BS 4 archers that shoot in 3 ranks core sound good? How about BS 5 str 4 rares and BS 4 bolt throwers?

So what do you guys think? Am I completely off here?

New codex syndrome. Give it a few weeks for the meta to adapt, and then let's see where they fall out. As far as the specifics:

I'm not really sold on the Phoenixes. I think they are going to be strong, and I lvoe my monster armies (hydras mostly) but at the same time, they are just as easy to paste as any other big monster, and that 5+ ward ain't gonna cut it when they draw shooting attention. They can fly, but unless you run big groups of them, they are going to have big "shoot me" lights on them. I see them being useful, but hardly capable of carrying a game on their own.

I'm sorry, but I don't get the panic over the High Magic. It's good, and solid, but with the winds of magic roll, a wizard can really only expect to have enough juice to reliably cast 2-3 spells per round, assuming no dispel attempts. That's a 4+ ward if things go as good as possible. And if that wizard is in charging cavalry, that is tactical insanity.

For the infantry, that's always been the High Elves' thing. They are strong, but won't be rocking the re-rolls they had previously. In all, it is a wash I'd say. Re-rolls from their old ASF rules traded in for more attacks.

And the high elves have always been flexible. Lots of armies are flexible, but generalizing has its risks as much as overspecializing.

Give it time, then let's let the sky fall.

I've been running my HE pretty heavy since the new book released. The big deal for me has been the drop in point cost. I can really pack a lot into my list.

Silver helm and Reaver core has been great. The ASF nerf on the Swordmasters is hardly that noticeable since I'm swinging with an extra rank. Actually I think they going better than before.

I've put in games vs. WoC, DoC, and OnG. All of these have been won heavily in my favor. BotWD is insanely good and cheap. I used to have so-so magic phases with the old book and had to run a lot of extras to pull off a good magic phase. Now it seems to be running a lot smoother. High Magic casting on +1 is nice. I haven't really done much with the extra ward bonus, since usually that unit is not in the thick of it.

I haven't picked up any Phoenix yet, but do plan to run the ice one. It seems too good to not run. I will be a target, but should be able to take a lot of punishment and draw attention away from the rest of the army.

I haven't heard any mention of the cheaper Bolt thrower, but those are doing well also. Being able to run two, when I used to only get room for one in a list is huge. 12 x S4 shots at 48" with armor pen is lethal. I've been able to drop most monsters easily.

I'm sure the meta will shift to deal with some of our new units/tactics, but I don't really see any big weakness yet.

It will take some weeks and tournaments to see where HE will land. They will certainly be better than before, by a long shot, but it's too early to rank them yet.

I'd still say that stuff like Lizardmen, Dark Elves and Skaven rank higher than HE though, e.g. LM having superior magic (they can still generate more PD whereas HE no longer can), Dark Elves having superior troops, cauldron, dagger etc. and Skaven...well, being Skaven. Ridiculously overpowered tarpits, strong war machines and template spam. HE might perform better vs. DE due to e.g. archers easily wrecking the Hydra, but overall, I'd say that Top Tier stays about the same.

Among the army books released so far for 8th edition, there is no doubt that HE are in the top tier. They are so far ahead of greenskins, TK and demons it is not even remotely amusing. It does not take a genius of warhammer or a crystal ball to recognize them as a top tier 8th edition army, like wise, it does not take 6 or 8 months to evaluate an army that is as powerful as the HE book.

It is not hard to recognize either an over powered or seriously underpowered and flawed army book. A lot of people think that it is, but they are wrong. It can be harder to parse out the good builds in a mediocre book and that can take some time (bst book for example), but if you cant recognize the HE, OK and VC books as top tier at first read then it is because you dont understand the basic mechanics of warhammer and dont have a good familiarity with the other books.

The armies that Sigvatr mentions as better than the HE book are all from the last edition and they all have rules and magic items that transfered favorably to 8th. Also they are all very top books from 7th edition as well. They have magic items and abilities that we absolutely know for a fact are going bye-bye when their armies get revised.

They are an anachronism and the LM are up to be nerfed in a few months. I would not be surprised at all if skaven are not revised before 9th edition.

The HE book is very top tier for amusing hypocrisy on the forums. There are literally dozens of examples of the same person defending some of the rules and items in one thread but then giggling with delight at how powerful the same things are in other threads. You dont see this so much here because this is a relatively low traffic fantasy forum but if you read the various forums on warseer and a few other places it is kind of an embarassment for the HE community.

JWhex wrote:
Among the army books released so far for 8th edition, there is no doubt that HE are in the top tier. They are so far ahead of greenskins, TK and demons it is not even remotely amusing. It does not take a genius of warhammer or a crystal ball to recognize them as a top tier 8th edition army, like wise, it does not take 6 or 8 months to evaluate an army that is as powerful as the HE book.

It is not hard to recognize either an over powered or seriously underpowered and flawed army book. A lot of people think that it is, but they are wrong. It can be harder to parse out the good builds in a mediocre book and that can take some time (bst book for example), but if you cant recognize the HE, OK and VC books as top tier at first read then it is because you dont understand the basic mechanics of warhammer and dont have a good familiarity with the other books.

The armies that Sigvatr mentions as better than the HE book are all from the last edition and they all have rules and magic items that transfered favorably to 8th. Also they are all very top books from 7th edition as well. They have magic items and abilities that we absolutely know for a fact are going bye-bye when their armies get revised.

They are an anachronism and the LM are up to be nerfed in a few months. I would not be surprised at all if skaven are not revised before 9th edition.

The HE book is very top tier for amusing hypocrisy on the forums. There are literally dozens of examples of the same person defending some of the rules and items in one thread but then giggling with delight at how powerful the same things are in other threads. You dont see this so much here because this is a relatively low traffic fantasy forum but if you read the various forums on warseer and a few other places it is kind of an embarassment for the HE community.

I'd have to generally agree with this, except that I think VC has a bad tendency to hover around the border between top/middle tier simply because they still have the age-old Undead weakness of "snipe the general ---> crumble, crumble, crumble."
It's never a sure fire thing, but I don't rate any army that relies on it's general not exploding/eating a cannonball as a solid top tier army. I've simply seen it and have had it happen to me far too many times where the VC general dies 1st or 2nd turn and it's just generally game over due to horrible Ld across the board causing your main hitters to crumble away...




As for High Elves, they're a Ward book. You look at their new abilities, and it's just a one-up'manship of other armies...
Wood Elves are supposed to be the masters of archery? Well, now High Elves make them look like chumps.
Brets are supposed to the kings of Core cavalry? Enter Silverhelms who fight better in the Lance formation, while Dragon Princes are simply Bret Knights on steroids!

High Elves are easily right up there with Ogres & WoC (and VC's who don't lose their general within the first turn or two) as the top 8th ed books.

Whilst I'd agree that the books ranked above them are mainly from the previous edition and so will hopefully be edited before too long, High Elves are currently a very middle tier book. They got some nice new toys, but lost a fair few of their main anti-metagame toys as well.

They still have the same problem as a lot of other armies, which is that they lack reliable access to high strength attacks outside of White Lions- who lost their re-rolls to hit, which is quite a big deal.

In an edition that revolves around monstrous cavalry and armour, this is a pretty crippling weakness. They do have the tools to deal with them, but even with the points drop they struggle to get everything in. Whilst they're a solid book, they're not as good as Empire or WoC in terms of the 8th edition books, and aren't on the same page as Lizardmen/Skaven/Ogres/uncomped Dark Elves. They will likely get relative boosts as these books get balanced down with 8th/9th edition updates, but as it stands High Elves (whilst improved) are still a middle of the road army. They have a lot of good stuff in their book, which is certainly an improvement from the previous one, but they have far too many weaknesses to be a top tier army.

Perhaps the most telling thing to look at, is how much they will change the metagame- I predict very little, as they have nothing that will become a driving force. Their infantry loses to better infantry (Nurgle Warriors, for example, will walk over any infantry in the HE book), and without being babysat by characters their cavalry, whilst better than the previous book, will still achieve very little and is very fragile. The Phoenixes and Bolt Throwers help them a lot, but they still lose out in an edition where cannons are not only ruling supreme, but are becoming more common.

They did get more tools to address their weakness (Articuno and 70pt bolt thowers are amongst the first things that spring to mind), but these weaknesses are still very present in a way they are not in the top tier books. This will be the main limiting factor on High Elves.

JWhex wrote:


It is not hard to recognize either an over powered or seriously underpowered and flawed army book. A lot of people think that it is, but they are wrong. It can be harder to parse out the good builds in a mediocre book and that can take some time (bst book for example), but if you cant recognize the HE, OK and VC books as top tier at first read then it is because you dont understand the basic mechanics of warhammer and dont have a good familiarity with the other books.

So anyone who disagrees with you is bad? Considering you're arguing about how evil us HE players are I'd expect you to back your statements up without fallacies.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


It is not hard to recognize either an over powered or seriously underpowered and flawed army book. A lot of people think that it is, but they are wrong. It can be harder to parse out the good builds in a mediocre book and that can take some time (bst book for example), but if you cant recognize the HE, OK and VC books as top tier at first read then it is because you dont understand the basic mechanics of warhammer and dont have a good familiarity with the other books.

So anyone who disagrees with you is bad? Considering you're arguing about how evil us HE players are I'd expect you to back your statements up without fallacies.

Well I could go through the various books and pick out examples of over powered, under powered and medium powered units, items and special rules and explain how and why they are rated that way but it would be a tremendous amount of work.

Look, the game is just not that complicated and it only lasts six turns max. It is simply not that difficult for someone with a decent amount of experience and familiarity with all the rules to make a reasonably accurate judgement on a book that is op or under powered. I expect even many of the people that say you need six months of tournaments and battle reports to judge a book could actually do exactly what I am saying if they took the time to learn about all the armies.

GW even makes the task easier because they really suck at game design and you can rely on their books to have poor internal and external balance. You can expect to find just completely worthless crap in their armybooks and stuff that is "too good to be true".

There is also the fact that for the most part, many of the units have been around for two decades or similar units have been around that long and it is very well known by now how well or poorly they are likely to work out.

JWhex wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


It is not hard to recognize either an over powered or seriously underpowered and flawed army book. A lot of people think that it is, but they are wrong. It can be harder to parse out the good builds in a mediocre book and that can take some time (bst book for example), but if you cant recognize the HE, OK and VC books as top tier at first read then it is because you dont understand the basic mechanics of warhammer and dont have a good familiarity with the other books.

So anyone who disagrees with you is bad? Considering you're arguing about how evil us HE players are I'd expect you to back your statements up without fallacies.

Well I could go through the various books and pick out examples of over powered, under powered and medium powered units, items and special rules and explain how and why they are rated that way but it would be a tremendous amount of work.

Look, the game is just not that complicated and it only lasts six turns max. It is simply not that difficult for someone with a decent amount of experience and familiarity with all the rules to make a reasonably accurate judgement on a book that is op or under powered. I expect even many of the people that say you need six months of tournaments and battle reports to judge a book could actually do exactly what I am saying if they took the time to learn about all the armies.

GW even makes the task easier because they really suck at game design and you can rely on their books to have poor internal and external balance. You can expect to find just completely worthless crap in their armybooks and stuff that is "too good to be true".

There is also the fact that for the most part, many of the units have been around for two decades or similar units have been around that long and it is very well known by now how well or poorly they are likely to work out.

That's not how a debate works though. You don't get to say "oh, but it IS this way, I just can't be bothered to back it up, because that'd take effort!". Otherwise it's just us listening (or reading, rather) about how much you like your own voice. It doesn't actually add anything of value at all.

To get back on track, just what is it, other than the BotWD, that makes High Elves be, in your opinion, a top tier army? Note that I'm not disputing that this might be true but rather your rather shoddy argument.

Experiment 626 wrote:

JWhex wrote:
Among the army books released so far for 8th edition, there is no doubt that HE are in the top tier. They are so far ahead of greenskins, TK and demons it is not even remotely amusing. It does not take a genius of warhammer or a crystal ball to recognize them as a top tier 8th edition army, like wise, it does not take 6 or 8 months to evaluate an army that is as powerful as the HE book.

It is not hard to recognize either an over powered or seriously underpowered and flawed army book. A lot of people think that it is, but they are wrong. It can be harder to parse out the good builds in a mediocre book and that can take some time (bst book for example), but if you cant recognize the HE, OK and VC books as top tier at first read then it is because you dont understand the basic mechanics of warhammer and dont have a good familiarity with the other books.

The armies that Sigvatr mentions as better than the HE book are all from the last edition and they all have rules and magic items that transfered favorably to 8th. Also they are all very top books from 7th edition as well. They have magic items and abilities that we absolutely know for a fact are going bye-bye when their armies get revised.

They are an anachronism and the LM are up to be nerfed in a few months. I would not be surprised at all if skaven are not revised before 9th edition.

The HE book is very top tier for amusing hypocrisy on the forums. There are literally dozens of examples of the same person defending some of the rules and items in one thread but then giggling with delight at how powerful the same things are in other threads. You dont see this so much here because this is a relatively low traffic fantasy forum but if you read the various forums on warseer and a few other places it is kind of an embarassment for the HE community.

I'd have to generally agree with this, except that I think VC has a bad tendency to hover around the border between top/middle tier simply because they still have the age-old Undead weakness of "snipe the general ---> crumble, crumble, crumble."
It's never a sure fire thing, but I don't rate any army that relies on it's general not exploding/eating a cannonball as a solid top tier army. I've simply seen it and have had it happen to me far too many times where the VC general dies 1st or 2nd turn and it's just generally game over due to horrible Ld across the board causing your main hitters to crumble away...




As for High Elves, they're a Ward book. You look at their new abilities, and it's just a one-up'manship of other armies...
Wood Elves are supposed to be the masters of archery? Well, now High Elves make them look like chumps.
Brets are supposed to the kings of Core cavalry? Enter Silverhelms who fight better in the Lance formation, while Dragon Princes are simply Bret Knights on steroids!

High Elves are easily right up there with Ogres & WoC (and VC's who don't lose their general within the first turn or two) as the top 8th ed books.

In regard to the VC losing their general in turn 1 or 2, I dont see that happen all that often in local tournaments. I will say that the local players that are good with the VC army are really, really good with this army and just bulldoze their way through tournaments. They can put together a magic phase that even a tooled slann can have trouble with. The fact that some of their spells affect multiple units is very good to excellent.

It seems to me in my games against them they can get a lot of synergies going between units. The etheral/scream list is used more than the blender lord in a black night bus in the local meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


It is not hard to recognize either an over powered or seriously underpowered and flawed army book. A lot of people think that it is, but they are wrong. It can be harder to parse out the good builds in a mediocre book and that can take some time (bst book for example), but if you cant recognize the HE, OK and VC books as top tier at first read then it is because you dont understand the basic mechanics of warhammer and dont have a good familiarity with the other books.

So anyone who disagrees with you is bad? Considering you're arguing about how evil us HE players are I'd expect you to back your statements up without fallacies.

Well I could go through the various books and pick out examples of over powered, under powered and medium powered units, items and special rules and explain how and why they are rated that way but it would be a tremendous amount of work.

Look, the game is just not that complicated and it only lasts six turns max. It is simply not that difficult for someone with a decent amount of experience and familiarity with all the rules to make a reasonably accurate judgement on a book that is op or under powered. I expect even many of the people that say you need six months of tournaments and battle reports to judge a book could actually do exactly what I am saying if they took the time to learn about all the armies.

GW even makes the task easier because they really suck at game design and you can rely on their books to have poor internal and external balance. You can expect to find just completely worthless crap in their armybooks and stuff that is "too good to be true".

There is also the fact that for the most part, many of the units have been around for two decades or similar units have been around that long and it is very well known by now how well or poorly they are likely to work out.

That's not how a debate works though. You don't get to say "oh, but it IS this way, I just can't be bothered to back it up, because that'd take effort!". Otherwise it's just us listening (or reading, rather) about how much you like your own voice. It doesn't actually add anything of value at all.

To get back on track, just what is it, other than the BotWD, that makes High Elves be, in your opinion, a top tier army? Note that I'm not disputing that this might be true but rather your rather shoddy argument.

Why should I retype what is in the early posts in this thread as to what makes the HE army a top tier army?

Not all debates are worth pursuing. I wont debate the theory of natural selection, theories speciation or the age of the Grand Canyon with a fundamentalist Christian that believes in a strict literal interpretation of the King James Bible. Whether or not army books can be evaluated from reading them is likewise not an interesting topic to me to debate over.

It's not so much a matter of retyping is coming at your point from a difference perspective and making a better argument, as you 1) didn't make a case, you just said that you thought this was the case and that there was no need for a justification as it's "obvious" and 2) have had a number of people, myself included, make relatively well reasoned posts with arguments against your assertion.

@JWhex, the reason that it takes 3-6 months before a comp-system comes out for a book is very reasonable and fair process.

Take a simple experiment, boiling water. What temperature does it boil at? By your reasoning (have a quick look through the book) we could boil it once, find out it boils at 100C, and be done. "water always boils at 100C". But it doesnt, and that is why the experiment is repeated, a number of variables are tested, and conclusions are drawn as a result of an exhaustive test process.

Now I am not saying that IMO the HE have a stupidly broken banner (in some respects) but one item a broken book does not make, and it is through testing and so on that various kinks are worked out.

Let me ask you, would you play in a tournament where the comp system was one where the TO had just banned things he didnt like?

 japehlio wrote:


Let me ask you, would you play in a tournament where the comp system was one where the TO had just banned things he didnt like?

I remember seeing some guy on dakka telling about a tournament where the TO, a tyranid player, decided to ban all flyers and allies

 Sigvatr wrote:

 japehlio wrote:


Let me ask you, would you play in a tournament where the comp system was one where the TO had just banned things he didnt like?

I remember seeing some guy on dakka telling about a tournament where the TO, a tyranid player, decided to ban all flyers and allies

Aye, was it the same one where the TO (also the store owner) had banned anything that wasnt available in his own store, and there were no conversions allowed that couldnt be done with only the contents of the one original box? (so no guard veterans, vendettas etc)

 tmarichards wrote:
They still have the same problem as a lot of other armies, which is that they lack reliable access to high strength attacks outside of White Lions- who lost their re-rolls to hit, which is quite a big deal.

They can put 50% of their points in Swordmasters and WL who are 5S at 13pts a piece. I think only O&G and cheaper S5 with their Squigs. And O&G aren't wearing armor and fighting in 3 ranks. So no, they are quite capable of putting out a gigantic amount of S5 attacks that have a lot of protection. If "a lot of other armies" have a problem, it's not a problem. Because everyone has it. S6+ is generally reserved for monsters, heroes, or stuff like Ogre GW. So yeah, not many have it, and it hasn't broken the game.

I think there's a lot of screeching going on both ways. 7th armies are 7th. Yes, they're still in play, but we have to move forward as the game changes. There's always going to be lagging imbalance with previous books.

I have a tough time seeing empire beating them except using a lot of tricks (which they do have). Given 2 generals of moderate skill and just marching at each other, I think HE have way better units, special rules, magic, monsters, etc overall. But empire has lotsa war machines. If you maxed like steam tanks and cannons and even mortars(!) which can much more easily make their pts back off HE, I think you could beat them. But that's certainly not an all-comers list.

It's true that they can put 50% of their army into special choices, but as I said- if you want to do that, you have to make huge cuts elsewhere. If you want a relevant amount of bolt thrower support, you need to be taking 3-4 of them and then you really need a couple of eagles if you want your combat list to work, as well as your minimum core then a BSB and a Level 4- around the 2400-2500pt mark, it can be quite hard to fit this in.

White Lions are a good point, they'll kill a fair bit of armour without a doubt. However, they still have the same problems as the previous book (even with the Lion Cloaks they don't like getting shot and especially not magic missiled), and without speed of Asuryan they now have problems with elite infantry that they used to be able to walk over. I'm not trying to argue that they're not good, they certainly are and in fact I think they got better this edition- my point is that they are good, but have a number of downsides that they struggle to limit without making nasty cuts elsewhere in the list. It's as a result of this (good troops but ones that need support and reward good army list construction), and that it is generally applicable across the book, that I think the book will be middle tier.

The High Elf vs Empire match-up is an interesting one, and I think it will have some nice nuances. The issue I see in that particular match-up is that HE don't really have any way to force the game outside of Walk Between Worlds. Empire armies typically have fewer deployments than HE armies so will likely get turn 1, and even if they don't the cannons can be screened. It's not unreasonable for the HE player to expect to lose 2 bolt throwers before they get the first turn, which will massively hinder how they can thin out the Demigryphs, and the defensive nature of good Empire lists means they will be able to thin out the White Lions before they engage. However, if the White Lions can get in in good order (mainly through judicious use of WBW), then it will go well for them. As I said, an interesting match-up with some nice nuances.

 japehlio wrote:
@JWhex, the reason that it takes 3-6 months before a comp-system comes out for a book is very reasonable and fair process.

Take a simple experiment, boiling water. What temperature does it boil at? By your reasoning (have a quick look through the book) we could boil it once, find out it boils at 100C, and be done. "water always boils at 100C". But it doesnt, and that is why the experiment is repeated, a number of variables are tested, and conclusions are drawn as a result of an exhaustive test process.

Now I am not saying that IMO the HE have a stupidly broken banner (in some respects) but one item a broken book does not make, and it is through testing and so on that various kinks are worked out.

Let me ask you, would you play in a tournament where the comp system was one where the TO had just banned things he didnt like?

About comp systems taking three to six months: I have not made any comment about the development of comp systems from reading the book, I said it was possible to evaluate whether the army was top tier or crap tier, and that middle tier armies were more difficult to evaluate.

About a TO just banning things they dont like. LOL @ that because more often than not, that or some variation of it is exactly what happens. The much ballyhooed ETC comp system is a perfect example of personal bias and not any kind of playtesting or really good overview of armies driving the comp system.

Because the ETC comp and its versions are openly discussed on the warhammer forum it is quite plain to see that a lot of their comp comes from purely personal dislike and or fear of items and not from months of play testing. Then there are the laughable restrictions that are put on certain armies which conclusively show how flawed the ETC comp process is. The other big flaw in the ETC system is that they also have a goal, or at least a fair number of influential people do, of trying to get representation for all the warhammer armies and they have a great PERSONAL dislike for many of the same armies showing up at their big event. More power to them, it is their event, but they are just a good example of a bad comp system.

As flawed as GW rules development is I have yet to encounter a comp system that actually improved the game. Luckily, in the USA comp systems are not especially popular and the ETC comp is not widely used even though I know of at least one big tournament that is going to use it. In my area there is virtually no comp at the tournaments.

Your boiling experiment metaphor does not hold water on several levels. First of all you mischaracterize what I said is neccassary to evaluate a book by describing it as a quick look. That is a strawman argument by the way. Your argument is also flawed because it is just outlandish and you are trying to make a comparison between things that are just not comparable.

Please come closer little baby seal I have something else to tell you.

You have also described the experiment in a way that informs me that you do not fully understand how scientists, in the domain of the natural sciences actually conduct scientific research. The demarcation between science and nonscience for the most part of the last fifty to sixty years has been the criterion of falsifiability. If you are not familiar with this then I suggest you read the work of Karl Popper, philosopher of science, and I dont mean just take a quick look on wiki. For you see that in your description you formulated your hypothesis ". . . water always boils. . .". You have also erred by saying that "conclusions are based on an exhaustive test process". There can be no exhaustive test process in the natural sciences, ever. Moreover, you never prove anything in the natural sciences so no trained scientist is going to be stupid enough to use descriptors like ALWAYS. The natural sciences use a combination of inductive and deductive reasoning in tangent with the criterion of falsifiability. Fields like mathematics and geometry can make statements of proof and use pure deductive reasoning and that is one thing that makes them different than the natural sciences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tmarichards wrote:
It's not so much a matter of retyping is coming at your point from a difference perspective and making a better argument, as you 1) didn't make a case, you just said that you thought this was the case and that there was no need for a justification as it's "obvious" and 2) have had a number of people, myself included, make relatively well reasoned posts with arguments against your assertion.

No one has made an argument well reasoned or other wise, that evaluating a book as high or low tier cannot be done by someone with an extensive knowledge of the core rules, extensive knowledge of the various armies and substantial experience playing the game. I am sure I can find a lot of EXPERIENCED players that agree with my position but I never was one that believed philosophy was ruled by democracy.

I did however make the argument it could be done BECAUSE whfb is just not that complex of a game and it had only 6 turns max (which implies that it does not have a deep tactical character).

So really then, the Burden of Rejoinder is on you not I.

I didn't try to argue that experienced players can't make quick judgements on books when they come out (I certainly have, and I think most people have to some extent), my point was that you stated what your assessment was without backing it up in any way whereas I have tried to illustrate my reasoning as to why HE are middle tier.

JWhex wrote:
The much ballyhooed ETC comp system is a perfect example of personal bias and not any kind of playtesting or really good overview of armies driving the comp system.

/facepalm

You know why I don't make elaborate posts about rocket science? Because I do not have the slightest idea on how it works.

JWhex wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
@JWhex, the reason that it takes 3-6 months before a comp-system comes out for a book is very reasonable and fair process.

Take a simple experiment, boiling water. What temperature does it boil at? By your reasoning (have a quick look through the book) we could boil it once, find out it boils at 100C, and be done. "water always boils at 100C". But it doesnt, and that is why the experiment is repeated, a number of variables are tested, and conclusions are drawn as a result of an exhaustive test process.

Now I am not saying that IMO the HE have a stupidly broken banner (in some respects) but one item a broken book does not make, and it is through testing and so on that various kinks are worked out.

Let me ask you, would you play in a tournament where the comp system was one where the TO had just banned things he didnt like?

About comp systems taking three to six months: I have not made any comment about the development of comp systems from reading the book, I said it was possible to evaluate whether the army was top tier or crap tier, and that middle tier armies were more difficult to evaluate.

About a TO just banning things they dont like. LOL @ that because more often than not, that or some variation of it is exactly what happens. The much ballyhooed ETC comp system is a perfect example of personal bias and not any kind of playtesting or really good overview of armies driving the comp system.

Because the ETC comp and its versions are openly discussed on the warhammer forum it is quite plain to see that a lot of their comp comes from purely personal dislike and or fear of items and not from months of play testing. Then there are the laughable restrictions that are put on certain armies which conclusively show how flawed the ETC comp process is. The other big flaw in the ETC system is that they also have a goal, or at least a fair number of influential people do, of trying to get representation for all the warhammer armies and they have a great PERSONAL dislike for many of the same armies showing up at their big event. More power to them, it is their event, but they are just a good example of a bad comp system.

As flawed as GW rules development is I have yet to encounter a comp system that actually improved the game. Luckily, in the USA comp systems are not especially popular and the ETC comp is not widely used even though I know of at least one big tournament that is going to use it. In my area there is virtually no comp at the tournaments.

Your boiling experiment metaphor does not hold water on several levels. First of all you mischaracterize what I said is neccassary to evaluate a book by describing it as a quick look. That is a strawman argument by the way. Your argument is also flawed because it is just outlandish and you are trying to make a comparison between things that are just not comparable.

Please come closer little baby seal I have something else to tell you.

You have also described the experiment in a way that informs me that you do not fully understand how scientists, in the domain of the natural sciences actually conduct scientific research. The demarcation between science and nonscience for the most part of the last fifty to sixty years has been the criterion of falsifiability. If you are not familiar with this then I suggest you read the work of Karl Popper, philosopher of science, and I dont mean just take a quick look on wiki. For you see that in your description you formulated your hypothesis ". . . water always boils. . .". You have also erred by saying that "conclusions are based on an exhaustive test process". There can be no exhaustive test process in the natural sciences, ever. Moreover, you never prove anything in the natural sciences so no trained scientist is going to be stupid enough to use descriptors like ALWAYS. The natural sciences use a combination of inductive and deductive reasoning in tangent with the criterion of falsifiability. Fields like mathematics and geometry can make statements of proof and use pure deductive reasoning and that is one thing that makes them different than the natural sciences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tmarichards wrote:
It's not so much a matter of retyping is coming at your point from a difference perspective and making a better argument, as you 1) didn't make a case, you just said that you thought this was the case and that there was no need for a justification as it's "obvious" and 2) have had a number of people, myself included, make relatively well reasoned posts with arguments against your assertion.

No one has made an argument well reasoned or other wise, that evaluating a book as high or low tier cannot be done by someone with an extensive knowledge of the core rules, extensive knowledge of the various armies and substantial experience playing the game. I am sure I can find a lot of EXPERIENCED players that agree with my position but I never was one that believed philosophy was ruled by democracy.

I did however make the argument it could be done BECAUSE whfb is just not that complex of a game and it had only 6 turns max (which implies that it does not have a deep tactical character).

So really then, the Burden of Rejoinder is on you not I.

Tmarichards is one of the best makers of battle reports (both in terms of variety and quality) on the internet full stop. If you take the time to watch some of his reports you will see that he very much qualified to give a fair and acurate appraisal of HEs and there place in the current meta (also hes a pom and the english meta tends to be about 3 months ahead of the rest of the world as far as I can tell by battle reports) Ive noticed that alot of the respected names in warhammer the Ben Curries etc seem to be placing HEs around mid field too in terms of book strength.

The way I see it, the current top-tier 8th ed armies wont care too much. Ogres and WoC will still do their thing, nothin in the new elf release will bother them too much...

 Sigvatr wrote:

JWhex wrote:
The much ballyhooed ETC comp system is a perfect example of personal bias and not any kind of playtesting or really good overview of armies driving the comp system.

/facepalm

You know why I don't make elaborate posts about rocket science? Because I do not have the slightest idea on how it works.

Well we all know you are in love with ETC and I think it is total bat crap, so we can just leave it at that. Or we can get penalty points for insulting each other back and forth and I can assure you that I am in a very high tier of smart ass.

 tmarichards wrote:
White Lions are a good point, they'll kill a fair bit of armour without a doubt. However, they still have the same problems as the previous book (even with the Lion Cloaks they don't like getting shot and especially not magic missiled), and without speed of Asuryan they now have problems with elite infantry that they used to be able to walk over. I'm not trying to argue that they're not good, they certainly are and in fact I think they got better this edition- my point is that they are good, but have a number of downsides that they struggle to limit without making nasty cuts elsewhere in the list. It's as a result of this (good troops but ones that need support and reward good army list construction), and that it is generally applicable across the book, that I think the book will be middle tier.

But you are trying to argue it. Let's go over this again. They are HA. S5. Stubborn(!). Fight in 3 ranks. WS5. And cost 13. They ARE elite infantry. Only Ogres/Trolls and such are basically super elites. WL can fight with Chaos Warriors and while buffed CW might win, it would take them costs of around 20pts per model to do it. And even then the WL can hang around cuz they're stubborn.

On paper the high elves are a high tier army. Cheap magic items, cheaper troops for what they do, some items like the banner that give them high durability, high strength, strike first, high skill, the ability to field numbers.

We haven't seen how they do in the broken environments of the min/maxers yet but from a sales standpoint here locally armies like the demons didn't go so well... the high elf army has sold a lot here and several min/maxers are building new tournament elf armies.

When gauging initial brokeness / OP'dness of an army I typically sit back and watch what the local power gamers do. So far, they seem to like the elf book quite a bit. As such, my power gamer gauge says that I think this book will be as powerful in 8th as the 5th edition book was in 5th and that it will rank up there for many years.

The proof will come in a few months when we start seeing the power lists and power gamer results in tournaments coming through one way or the other.

DukeRustfield wrote:
They are HA. S5. Stubborn(!). Fight in 3 ranks. WS5. And cost 13. They ARE elite infantry. Only Ogres/Trolls and such are basically super elites. WL can fight with Chaos Warriors and while buffed CW might win, it would take them costs of around 20pts per model to do it. And even then the WL can hang around cuz they're stubborn.

I'm not sure I agree that White Lions will win in a vacuum. Most of the Warriors I see are armed with halberds and have the Mark of Nurgle so in terms of wounding efficiency, they come out at the same- they strike at the same time, they each wound the other on 2s and they each negate all the armour save. In order for White Lions to benefit from martial prowess, they need to go wide in order to maximise their attacks, and in turn the Warriors will go wide to meet them which also buffs them because they get diminishing returns from the 2nd rank because they only get 1 attack.

As a general example, for around 500pts you can get 36 White Lions with full command and 25 Warriors as I described above with full command, each of whom go 10 wide to maximise their efficiency. As I mentioned, they are exactly even in terms of wounding efficiency and go at the same time but the swing here will be that where the Warriors need 4s to hit and 2s to kill with their 2 attack infantry, the White Lions will need 5s to hit and 2s to kill with their single attack infantry.

Maths has never been my strongest point so I apologise if these rough figures aren't entirely accurate. 36 White Lions vs 25 Warriors.

Round 1 of combat sees 15 White Lions die along with 10 Warriors, 21 vs 15.

Round 2 has 10 White Lions die to 6 Warriors, 11 vs 9

Round 3 has 8 White Lions die to 4 Warriors, 3 vs 5.

Round 4 has the last of the White Lions die, killing 1 Warrior leaving there to be 4 in the unit.

I fully accept that this entire combat has largely been based on a false premise as it's rare for 2 mainline combat units to both get into combat with a full complement of models and that High Elves have better tools to whittle Warriors down at range than vice versa and that it's also rare for a combat to go for 4 rounds without a single buff going off or other units getting involved and that with M5 High Elves will theoretically be getting the charge off and thus the first round of buffss, but as I said I wanted to do this in a vacuum or it escalates out of control (for each point High Elves could make that would swing the combat in their favour, Warriors can also retort with one) in order to illustrate my point which is that whilst White Lions are still a good unit, they don't offer the same sort of reliable access to high strength than they used to because they lost their re-rolls, and so whilst they will be great against monstrous cavalry and cavalry they will now struggle against infantry of a similar WS and I because they will be swinging at the same time with no re-rolls. As a result, they need army support and synergy in a way that they didn't need before which is an example of why I consider the new High Elf book to be balanced or middle tier.

 tmarichards wrote:
I'm not sure I agree that White Lions will win in a vacuum. Most of the Warriors I see are armed with halberds and have the Mark of Nurgle so in terms of wounding efficiency, they come out at the same

I said that...I also said at that point a warrior costs 19 vs. the 13 the WL. So for that 50% premium they need to be 50% more effective and with stubborn, even moreso.

JWhex wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

JWhex wrote:
The much ballyhooed ETC comp system is a perfect example of personal bias and not any kind of playtesting or really good overview of armies driving the comp system.

/facepalm

You know why I don't make elaborate posts about rocket science? Because I do not have the slightest idea on how it works.

Well we all know you are in love with ETC and I think it is total bat crap, so we can just leave it at that. Or we can get penalty points for insulting each other back and forth and I can assure you that I am in a very high tier of smart ass.

It's not about liking it or not, it's about completely uninformed people spreading misinformation...but alas, I agree to disagree.

Not the point of this thread and our clubs are having their own take at HE right now, getting as many sample games in as we can before having a first meeting, evaluating the data we got and seeing what it's worth. Right now, it looks like HE got a hefty buff with some nasty spikes, but it will take time and careful preparation plus a lot of discussions and argumentations to see where they'll end up. My first, purely subjective guess: upper middle tier. Hefty buffs to some units, but still not as strong magic-wise as e.g. LM and DE; and Magic is the most important thing for a strong army.

Am writing this with a horrible head cold and its 5 in the morning so bear with me. IMO to throw out there that a book is now top tier and "op" in some cases after it only being released for a few weeks is premature. As with new books it takes the opponents of that army a little time to develop strategies to counter what makes the armies great. Have had a few games under my belt with the new book and to point out some examples:

--The banner of the world dragon deathstar. I have heard nothing but crying from other players saying how it is OP and should never have been created. Have faced the new HE's twice and handled it just fine. When playing as HE I just redirected his scary horde of white lions with eagles and shot them to pieces with bolt throwers. Many people seem to forget that the old banner of the world dragon was just as nasty (no magic @ all could affect the unit making spells like dwellers for example useless). and really this banner affects units with CC magical attacks the most, hence Wood Elves forest spirits and DoC, maybe they should try redirecting for a change?

-The phoenixes are very good as well but they are not invincible. It is a dice game so guess what bad rolls will happen for winds of magic. In regards to the Frost phoenix its -1 strength debuff is good, however it has to be in base contact. Compare that to an Empire Celestial Hurricanium that can be withing a few inches of multiple units and can give them all a buff could be listed as ridiculous as well in regards to some of your guys arguments.

And Experiment626, not to pick on you but out of all the books you mentioned showing how the new HE's are better you mentioned both the Wood Elves and the Brets which are both the oldest books currently out there right now which kind of makes your points null and void in regards to those armies. When all the books come out (guessing with the new edition) the roles could very well be reversed.

Overall yes the new book has some great units, flexibility (dont see how a book being flexible is unfair) and has some cool tricks. However I do believe that things will develop in the meta that will effectively counter what the new HE's can bring, wait a few months and if it does turn out that way then you can point it out to your hearts content.

 gmaleron wrote:
DoC, maybe they should try redirecting for a change?

*gets popcorn*