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It could be that Order 66 is partially dependent on a Clone's perspective. Official or not, the 501st are far more likely to see Ahsoka as a Jedi than Barriss.

There’s also an arguable delineation.

Ahsoka left the Order, but was welcome to return.

Barriss was Denounced by the Order (if memory serves!) and so in nobody’s eyes except perhaps her own, was she still a Jedi.

In the comics a Jedi on the run got Clones to open fire on Vader and a couple Inquisitors by naming and identifying them as former Jedi then invoking Order 66.

 AduroT wrote:
In the comics a Jedi on the run got Clones to open fire on Vader and a couple Inquisitors by naming and identifying them as former Jedi then invoking Order 66.

The fiend!

Makes me wonder if that's an old comic or a new one. I got the impression that since at least Clone Wars season seven Order 66 is more nuanced than an irresistible imperative to kill Jedi on sight.

 Geifer wrote:


The fiend!

Makes me wonder if that's an old comic or a new one. I got the impression that since at least Clone Wars season seven Order 66 is more nuanced than an irresistible imperative to kill Jedi on sight.

You have that backwards. The 'irresistible imperative' was from Clone Wars. Before the last couple of seasons introduced the obedience chip, the clones gunning down the Jedi was just training and following the chain of command. So going after Vader just because he was once a Jedi wouldn't have made sense, pre - Clone Wars.

And in the old EU, very few people even knew Vader was Anakin. Seems to be fairly common knowledge in the new continuity.

Darth Jarjar is now -- cannon

Funny. Starting to think I should take some time to watch Lego Star Wars.

 insaniak wrote:

 Geifer wrote:


The fiend!

Makes me wonder if that's an old comic or a new one. I got the impression that since at least Clone Wars season seven Order 66 is more nuanced than an irresistible imperative to kill Jedi on sight.

You have that backwards. The 'irresistible imperative' was from Clone Wars. Before the last couple of seasons introduced the obedience chip, the clones gunning down the Jedi was just training and following the chain of command. So going after Vader just because he was once a Jedi wouldn't have made sense, pre - Clone Wars.

And in the old EU, very few people even knew Vader was Anakin. Seems to be fairly common knowledge in the new continuity.

I was thinking along the lines of Clone Wars season seven being post Disney takeover and new continuity while season six (the one with the malfunctioning clone) was still old continuity.

I'm basically unfamiliar with books and comics of the old EU and couldn't say how it was handled there.

Vader was also not a Jedi when Order 66 happened and the Clones also referred to Sidious as "My Lord" which is not what they would have called him when he was Supreme Chancellor.

I prefer the idea of the Inhibitor Chips in this sense because they are pre-programmed to know Palpatine is Sidious and that his apprentice was not to be counted among the Jedi, in this case Vader rather than Tyrannus or even potentially Maul.

 Geifer wrote:
I was thinking along the lines of Clone Wars season seven being post Disney takeover and new continuity while season six (the one with the malfunctioning clone) was still old continuity.

Clone Wars was always more tied to the continuity than the EU material was, and I strongly suspect that the last seasons were already mapped out before the Disney takeover. At the very least I vaguely recall mention of the outline being run past Lucas for his approval. So I don't think there was ever a change of direction, there.

The obedience chip wasn't a Disney addition, it was a necessary addition to deal with the fact that the cartoon had given the clones too much personality and free will. In their original guise, order 66 worked because of the clones' unthinking obedience... they were able to take down the Jedi because they just did what they were told to do before most Jedi were able to register them as a threat. But by the time we got a few seasons into the cartoon, it became increasingly unlikely that a lot of these clones would have willingly turned on their Jedi commanders. The 501st certainly wouldn't have. So the obedience chip, from the time it was introduced, was supposed to be the hook that allowed the clones to turn on the jedi even if they really, really didn't want to.

 Gert wrote:
Vader was also not a Jedi when Order 66 happened ...

That was never relayed to the Clones, on screen at least.

...and the Clones also referred to Sidious as "My Lord" which is not what they would have called him when he was Supreme Chancellor.

The Chancellor is referred to as 'My Lord'.

From Attack of the Clones -

A muted BUZZER SOUNDS. A hologram of an AIDE, DAR WAC, appears on the Chancellor's desk.

DAR WAC
The loyalist committee has arrived, my Lord.

PALPATINE
Send them in.

If you remember the original Battlefront II, the EU used to present the end of the Jedi Order as something the clones always knew was coming and kept to themselves, but in the old EU the clones in general were much more robotic/unemotive except for the clone commandos and the arc troopers who had more independence.

The Clone Wars tv series altered this buy giving the clones a lot more personality and making them likeable, and I guess the obedience chip was how they explained how the likeable clone soldiers we spent most of the series with ended up killing the likeable Jedi heroes we spent most of the series with.

Dug up the scene I mentioned. Don’t wanna dump eight pages in here so you can check em out at this link if you’re interested.

https://www.tumblr.com/adurot/750162035657080832/darth-vader-2017-issues-16-17

Getting a wee bit hype for The Acolyte now, as we’re a little under four weeks from launch.

Of particular interest is outside of Yoda, who we’ve not seen in the trailers, the time period means All New Characters.

I very much suspect it’ll touch on Palpatine’s overall line of succession in one way or another. But to have a lot of unexpected erm…expected? I’m excited.

Still wondering what happened to Skellington Crew though!

Not sure if this is the right thread, but:

If you want 4 hours of compelling Star Wars content, Jenny Nicholson just dropped her video on her Star Wars Hotel experience.

I actually watched that saga. Pretty compelling video. Sad/glad I never got to experience it for myself.

It would have been a cool idea and experience, if they hadn't made it so exorbitantly priced. There was zero reason for that.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It would have been a cool idea and experience, if they hadn't made it so exorbitantly priced. There was zero reason for that.

It’s especially galling in light of all the Spirit Airlines nickel-and-diming Disney added on top of that, as well as the corner-cut production of the attraction, from the rooms to the photographers to the bus to the app. They spent a lot of money (and charged even more) to make that experience feel so cheap.

It feels like it was entirely a margins problem. Similar costs as the parks and hotels but nowhere near the capacity. I'm not sure if the numbers changed or if they were just ignored early on, but almost every problem feels like someone trying to squeeze the margins.

I went on a Star Wars binge of old shows out of sheer boredom.

The Clone Wars TV Series

Parts of this show have aged really well. Others no so much. To my surprise though I found many parts that I thought dumb when I first saw them years ago not so bad years later. The finale is actually better than I recall. The sections with Maul and Ahsoka and Ventress in particularly have aged really well. Maybe a bit of confirmation bias there as all these characters went on to be very good toward the end of the series and have good appearances in other material.

Rebels TV Series

Huh. I remember this show being better. Or at least I enjoyed it a lot more when it was new (suppose it helped that it was good Star Wars content at a time there wasn't much of that). The first season in particular is just so dull now aside from the start and end of the season. From there the show does get better with Ezra and Kanan's character arcs being stand outs. Thrawn is still great in the show. How Maul was used in S2 and S3 was great and I still love his final confrontation with Obi-Wan. Just so well done. I still find the end of the series a bit rushed but it is what it is.

Resistance TV Series

I remember why they canceled this show now. It's just... not good.

Rogue One Movie

This is still the best of the movies Disney has produced imo. Even with its flaws, it's just a much better and more entertaining production than the sequel trilogy or Solo (and I still think Solo was unfairly maligned and suffered for how gakky the sequel trilogy was).

The Mandalorian

Bit of a rebels treatment on this one to my surprise. Season 1 is still excellent but 2 is a bit less good aside from it's last few episodes. Season 3 is still meh.

Andor TV Series.

I still think this series has way too much padding. The first and last three episodes are the best parts. The middle bits drags 1 episode plots into 3 episodes for no reason.

Ahsoka TV Series

I tried it, and decided maybe another time after the first episode hinged on cliches and recycling old plot devices. Why is that every person in the Star Wars universe who is beyond all known space/trying not to be found inexplicably has a map that leads right to them? Though I simultaneously appreciate the series skipping to the start of interesting things, while resenting that it does that just to go do boring things with a bunch of changes to Sabine's character I still don't like. Another time mayhaps.

I don't usually respond well to bringing a character back to life who was cut in half and thrown down a bottomless pit. It's a most ridiculous thing to do. But they went on to do a lot of great stuff with Maul, so for once I'm actually glad it happened. It's one of my top examples of turning questionable elements around and making them better with added material. I feel much the same about Anakin. Ahsoka is great by herself, but her relationship with Clone Wars Anakin also makes movie Anakin better. It's about the only hope I see for the sequel trilogy. There's a lot of stupid to correct, and it looks like they're doing it by working Project Necromancer into the various shows we got since. That's a start, I guess.

On the map thing, for me it's all about implementation.

Star whales traveled through hyperspace before man-made craft did. That makes them an interesting subject of study. Studies were done by a cult of Force sensitives seeking knowledge. The knowledge is locked behind code specific to the cult and requires a device to read that operates on cult magic. Thrawn was last seen abducted by animals that jumped into hyperspace. Animals have habits that were recorded and, for lack of any other clue, are the best shot at following Thrawn's trail. The existence of the map is plausible and there's a logical progression from the building blocks to the solution. To me that makes the map a perfectly reasonable addition to Ahsoka's plot.

By contrast I have no idea how or why the map in Force Awakens exists, other than that the writers wanted something for the heroes to chase after. I don't know if there is supplemental material that tries to explain it in some way, but from what I remember seeing in the movie the map is complete nonsense.

The Map in the The Force Awakens does make sense.

It’s established The First Order had part of it, looted from the Jedi Temple, presumably in the aftermath of Order 66 and the establishment of The Empire. And at some point, someone had stolen an important part of it.

We know Jedi Masters had such authority, because the map to Kamino had also been deleted. So, presumably, some farsighted or otherwise paranoid Jedi Master decided to fragment the map to Ahch-To, it being important to the found of the Jedi Order.

We can also safely assume Luke came across the map prior to his exile, and stored the missing fragment in R2.

 Geifer wrote:

By contrast I have no idea how or why the map in Force Awakens exists, other than that the writers wanted something for the heroes to chase after. I don't know if there is supplemental material that tries to explain it in some way, but from what I remember seeing in the movie the map is complete nonsense.

I just saw an excellent analysis on Ep9 and how its various pitches evolved into the final product. The conclusion it reaches is that a lot of what we got is a result of swapping out the original mcguffins and not replacing them with something that ties in to the places the characters were going for the originals. I find it interesting that, while a dramatically better film, IMO, Ep7's weakest element is by far its mcguffin. Kind of an interesting element to get consistently wrong. 8ths isn't great either... or at least, its not particularly well implemented.

 Geifer wrote:

By contrast I have no idea how or why the map in Force Awakens exists, other than that the writers wanted something for the heroes to chase after. I don't know if there is supplemental material that tries to explain it in some way, but from what I remember seeing in the movie the map is complete nonsense.

Its even worse when they just show the map, and you realize that the 'missing' area of space is relatively small and easily searched by anyone with a couple ships, let alone a fleet.

While the space is just voided out on that map, other star charts would have all the systems (and hyperlanes) and the large map has a blatant red path indicating the entrance vector you'd follow on a search.
There are similarly sized stretches of space on the same map with about 20 named systems, so the search immediately seems not particularly arduous.

A passing knowledge of astronomy + a decent knowledge of star wars' astrophysics seemed to escape whoever wrote the plot and whoever got tasked for 'realizing' the map art.


---
There's also just... not any reason for the map to exist at all. Luke's goal was to hide from everybody. Sending out an 'X marks the spot' map with no other purpose beyond letting people find him is just... stupid.
Its that weird fantasy trope of making a trapped but accessible vault so people can get the thing they aren't supposed to have, and then making riddles and puzzles for the sole purpose of bypassing the traps.

The issue with star maps is Star Wars is that the galaxy is simultaneously treated like it is small and you can literally travel from one end of it to the other in hours while at the same time having massive unexplored areas such that planets can go centuries or millennia without anyone going there.

Even with the stated reason of "Hyperspace is potentially dangerous and you need to map out paths" isn't an obstacle when you could easily make a bunch of droid controlled scout ships to just go out and map the whole galaxy, and indeed people have done exactly that.

Star Wars tries to simultaneously be a decayed ancient setting like 40k where technology is anachronistic and almost mystical, but also super common and highly developed like Star Trek, and it just ends up making the people who live in this setting look extra dumb.

Yeah, but maps are a staple of old serial, pulp adventure stories that Star Wars is based on.

Many folks are trying to apply logic to genre conventions.

I don't think decayed is the right term. It's more that it tries to be a lived in setting. The idea has always been that the core worlds are rather opulent and modern and the farther you travel towards the outer rim, the more wild west things become.

What's always been the problem is that, in part due to how they were made and in part to serve the story, the original trilogy mostly dealt with either the underclass hiding in the slums or fascist military installations stripped of individuality. We didn't really get to see a "nice place" in the galaxy until Ep1, which is a big part of why it felt so jarring to people who had grown up on 20 years of the setting being defined by its downtrodden sectors.

 Easy E wrote:
Yeah, but maps are a staple of old serial, pulp adventure stories that Star Wars is based on.

Many folks are trying to apply logic to genre conventions.

That only works if the map is cryptic or unseen. If you present the audience with a big blue map 5x larger than the characters with a glowing red path on it, you can't dismiss it as 'genre conventions.' The audience is seeing what the characters are seeing.

Its especially hinky in an overly marketed and analyzed setting like SW, where I'm sure some fanboy with the right sourcebooks can pinpoint exactly where in the galaxy that planet is, based on comparing various published maps.

 Geifer wrote:
I don't usually respond well to bringing a character back to life who was cut in half and thrown down a bottomless pit. It's a most ridiculous thing to do. But they went on to do a lot of great stuff with Maul

I agree it's stupid they did it and I'll still say it's stupid they did it.

But at least they went good places with it so I will overlook the stupidity.

 LunarSol wrote:
I don't think decayed is the right term. It's more that it tries to be a lived in setting. The idea has always been that the core worlds are rather opulent and modern and the farther you travel towards the outer rim, the more wild west things become.

Ehh, potato potato.

There is enough ancient ruins, forgotten empires, along with some eldritch horror adjacent stuff to make it a decayed setting. And even the opulent and well maintained core worlds hide ugly and gritty underworlds beneath the polished marble.

But again this is somewhat contradictory with how... mundane they treat their wonderous tech. Seems anyone can make a galaxy destroying super weapon with a few years of work, the local auto mechanic always gets asked to help with the ancient techno-mcguffin, etc... This just feels like it doesn't work well with ancient archeo-tech and eldritch horror stuff.

You really don't see ancient tech ever being presented as superior to modern tech though. It's usually just incompatible and they need some RadioShack guy to get the file off a floppy disk.

A lot of the setting is just rooted in a 50-70's pop-culture worldview where most of the world had become civilized, but people dreamed of the ruins of ancient civilizations holding magical artifacts.

I guess I'm just not sure why the different levels of wealth and technology is so odd to you. You can see similar things in any major city and particularly if you go from there out to the small towns.

I don't know. They may not ever explicitly say ancient tech is better, but it does seem to be implied sometimes. And it certainly is never shown to be inferior. At best, it shows that technology in star wars is heavily stagnated. People do come up with new stuff, but its never just strictly better.

But yet, despite having access to a bunch of actually amazing technology to improve their standards of living, the people of star wars simply fail to use it to full potential. Like, a mining operation not only using specialized mining droids, but also using very much non-mining droids with hand tools like they are convict labor...

People on Tatooine living in adobe housing that is open to the outside air and relies on natural cooling flow. This wouldn't be a problem if Star Wars didn't also have easy cheap access to nuclear power. Seal that adobe home up and enjoy some air conditioning. Slave children can make protocol droids and podracers out of scrap in their spare time on your planet, you will not convince me you do not have cheap power to spare for air conditioning and general climate control of your houses. Heck, why does manual labor slavery exist when droids are cheap and plentiful? It would be far cheaper to buy a droid you only need to feed some cheap power and occasional maintenance than own some slaves you have to feed, house, etc... just to do work around your junk shop.