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2013/06/09 11:39:11
Subject: Pure Deathwing 1000 points - opinions needed
I want to make a 1000pts Deathwing force. Whilst of course I understand it is not the most competitive list around, I'd like it to do as well as it can.
With this in mind here are three lists that I'm looking for opinions on:
List 1 (Gives most scoring units) -1000pts Belial
Librarian - Terminator Armour
List 2 (Dedicated CC unit, possibly more survivable, but less firepower. Need opinions on Knights vs Termies) -1000pts Belial
Librarian - Terminator Armour
I play Deathwing at 1000 Points and have found the best config is on foot with a CML in each squad. It helps vs Tanks and can be good against hordes too.
Just footslog it up the field constantly firing at the enemy.
Don't bother taking Tanks and Dreads, just as many Deathwing as you can.
Don't bother with Knights, they are only good against Chaos.
List 3 is pretty good. I'd try to squeeze in more CML and if you can, a Champion in the Command Squad.
Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
Belial
Deathwing command squad x 5 - Plasma Cannon, Standard of Fortitude.
Deathwing Squad x5 - CML Deathwing Squad x5 - CML
I'll be running up against MEQ with light armour lists often, so the plasma will be useful - also FNP makes it very unlikely to suffer a wound from Gets Hot.
I might bring the assault cannons back if more armour 14 vehicles appear.
2013/06/09 19:04:30
Subject: Pure Deathwing 1000 points - opinions needed
Pure DW are tough at 1K unless it's kill points. List 3 is your best bet; and the FNP banner is a must.
BUT, I'm still going to contend tht knights aren't just good against chaos. I agree they don't belong in a 1000 point game but my knights have earned MVP against SM, Daemons and Nids as well as chaos. Consider them at 1500+.
I like list 3, but I might be a little nervous with that 100+ point terminator in a 1000pt list. Maybe give him a TH/SS to make him a bit more durable?
List 1 would be my other choice, but do you know what powers you would plan on giving the Librarian? Divination would be nice, but I think it would do better to have a cyclone missile to benefit from the primaris power while you are walking up the field.
1500 Blood Angels with Dark Angel allies (IP)
1750 Deathwing (IP)
500pt Space Wolves (IP)
40kangelsofdeath.blogspot.com
A TH/SS on the standard bearer might help his survivability, but I'm not sure by how much. He will be at the back of the squad of course, and very few precision shots would actually be ap 2. So it might be overkill.
The real challenge is that with 15 terminators, FNP banner and Belial there are only 65 points available for weapon choices, so any points on SS or a Champion would mean less CMLs or assault cannons.
Librarian would probably run divination, either the primaris, forewarning or misfortune would all have uses.
How do people here feel about Belial's wargear - Sword of silence/ Thunder hammer/ LC's
I'm leaning more towards Thunder Hammer at the moment due to AP2 as well as str 8 for insta death with "The Hunt" warlord trait.
I'm also considering an Interrogator Chaplain in terminator armour at higher points, I plan on giving him the Mace of redemption instead of the storm bolter, giving him +1 attack as well as AP3, Though 170 points is quite a lot.
2013/06/19 13:57:24
Subject: Pure Deathwing 1000 points - opinions needed
Good batrep really enjoyed it, makes me want to start Deathwing. Is it expensive money wise to field a DW, i would probably just stay at 1k. But then I also have to finish my other armies :( sigh, not enuff money and too many armies...
Is it expensive money wise to field a DW, i would probably just stay at 1k.
To be Honest it must be one of the cheapest armies. Even with, IMO, the over priced (£35!!) Deathwing terminators, you will only need 3 boxes plus Belial. So a 1k army come in at around £120.
And the box does have a lot of spare parts for kit bashing & conversions later.
2013/06/20 10:11:31
Subject: Pure Deathwing 1000 points - opinions needed
True, and I'm sure that on Chinese Ebay you can get them for even less. But that doesn't change the fact that the GW price is £35, which I believe is a bit overpriced for 5 models.
Melee termies could work, but with 1k points you havent got much to work with, so thunder hammers will eat into your points (& Lightning claws just aren't worth it in 6th). It will also reduce your overall shooting, so I'd prefer to keep the standard SB/PF.
Edit: Sorry re-read your post, I agree for just a few guys SS/TH would be nice. I'm hoping they will clear up the latest FAQ which stops sergeants from taking upgrades though, something to get rid of that power sword.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/20 11:29:48
I admit that the 5 man DW box is too much.
By £10 on ebay I meant the Dark Vengeance termi kits, like this. You get your scrubs, your assault cannon, you're sergeant and the CF to replace with a TH/SS. If you get 4 ebay kits and the assault squad, pimp out the TH/SS Sarge to become Belial you can get, for ~£70:
Then 4 spare chainfist guys for when you think you need chainfists. If you then splurge on the DW box you can bump that up to 1500 points (FNP banner & CML||AC&TH/SS). If you ignore the DWCS you can get 335 points of *more*. If you really want CMLs on a budget go to a bits place and buy sentinel missile launchers for about £2. You can then give 2 squads a CML, dropping their TH/SS, and walking those squads up field, deepstriking the others (or other, as one big squad w/ Belial).
At 1000 points it's kinda iffy with DW. They've got shooting, but not really a huge amount of it. Like most termi's they want to be in combat, bullying a squad easily killed but without the 3++ they're susceptible to lots of damage.
Belial
Deathwing command squad x 5 - Plasma Cannon, Standard of Fortitude.
Deathwing Squad x5 - CML Deathwing Squad x5 - CML
It performed well, tabling the opposition except for 3 models, and only losing 4 models (I had tremendous luck with ++ saves and FNP).
The one disappointment of the list was Belial.
I gave him a TH/SS. As the list has to stay together, his deep strike skill is not so useful at 1000 pts. In the end he sat with the command squad and his only contribution was to take a wound.
So I am considering taking Azrael instead.
25 points more for +2 attacks, +1 wound, 4++ for his unit, +1LD for the army, as well as the choice of Furious charge for his unit (Normally overkill, but 9 str power fist helps vs monstrous creatures and vehicles) or an extra d6, discard the highest, for LD checks ( Will help to make sure the squads will never run away, also good for ensuring split fire works when needed).
The only downside to all this is that those 25 points eat into the special weapons budget, meaning only 2 assault cannons, or a CML and Plamsa cannon could be taken.
Azrael
Deathwing command squad x 5 - Standard of Fortitude.
At 1k pts. I'd consider dropping the command squad for a LR, regular works as and anti-tank, crusader as anti-troop depending how you otherwise equip your terminators. Either way avoid the assault cannon, expensive and underperforms, the CML seems to work better in most situations.
I've found a problem with my own list. Whilst I'm sure that Azrael is better than Belial, he unfortunately does not unlock Deathwing command squads, meaning no FNP banner for me.
Belial is a must it seems, if you wish to do a 1k deathwing army and use a sacred standard.
As for a list without a Command squad, I'd probably run:
I'm not sure on a LR at 1k points, I'd certainly take the crusader, the standard one fails miserably in comparison. However having only 10 men on the field, and also having little reason to rush into cc with only 6 men, I don't know how useful it would be. Movable cover would be nice though.
A little off topic here, but does anyone know if a consensus was reached over Deathwing sergeants after the FAQ? I would love to give him the TH/SS to keep challengers busy, but the new RAW in the faq says he's got to keep the power sword.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/11 15:11:09
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I've found a problem with my own list. Whilst I'm sure that Azrael is better than Belial, he unfortunately does not unlock Deathwing command squads, meaning no FNP banner for me.
Belial is a must it seems, if you wish to do a 1k deathwing army and use a sacred standard.
As for a list without a Command squad, I'd probably run:
I'm not sure on a LR at 1k points, I'd certainly take the crusader, the standard one fails miserably in comparison. However having only 10 men on the field, and also having little reason to rush into cc with only 6 men, I don't know how useful it would be. Movable cover would be nice though.
A little off topic here, but does anyone know if a consensus was reached over Deathwing sergeants after the FAQ? I would love to give him the TH/SS to keep challengers busy, but the new RAW in the faq says he's got to keep the power sword.
I believe that the FAQ means that you must take the sgt w/ the sword and storm bolter... however, I already built my sgts with the TH/SS and will not buy more models from a company that doesn't take the time to proofread and make my previously legal sergeants, illegal. So, if anyone has a problem I will say they are swords and storm bolter counts as, but thus far all my friends and opponents agree that it's stupid and they should be allowed to take it.
Belial isn't terrible, he's just not that good. He has a 2+ 4++ with precision shots and strikes, makes your DW score, and allows his squad to not scatter. His warlord trait is awful though, as most enemy HQs are either going to be vastly underqualified to kill him (IG, Tau, etc) and are free kills anyway, or are going to obliterate him. If you are doing a shooting, deep striking termie list, he is good to use the storm bolter/sword. You don't want the squad to be fighting lots of TEQ anyway (unless they are CSM or SW and have power swords/mauls/claws etc). It's better to just let them shoot. With something like Knights or a TH/SS squad the SS/TH combo is fine, particularly if you are going to be fighting a really tough HQ character or MCs. Basically, it just helps him not die.
If you are doing foot slogging, then Azrael is probably better, as he makes the whole squad 2+ 4++, whole army Ld 10 (already fearless/stubborn though) and you can give them FNP if they are on an objective due to his warlord trait (which is nice). He does not have eternal warrior though, so you need to be careful with him against high strength enemies. Azrael has a lot of utility, but less killing power than Belial in my opinion. His sword is worse for the most part (str 6 vs fleshbane always wounding on a 2+) and with a squad of power fist or hammer wielding terminators, you should have str 8 hits under control for anti-vehicle/monster hehe. It's your call really. I would probably keep Belial just because in the end, that FNP banner and extra weapons is really going to help more than Azrael. If you expand to throw in some RW though, that's another story.
You can also get a cheap Azrael counts as model (and looks better) from the Dark Vengeance set. Just use the captain that comes in it. It's exactly the same loadout as Azrael (wing helmet, combo-plasma + sword + pistol) and you don't need the dumb little familiar walking around behind him.
- VardenV2
The Reactor Core - Commission Painting Service: http://reactorcorepainting.com _________________________________________
VardenV2 wrote: Belial isn't terrible, he's just not that good. He has a 2+ 4++ with precision shots and strikes, makes your DW score, and allows his squad to not scatter. His warlord trait is awful though, as most enemy HQs are either going to be vastly underqualified to kill him (IG, Tau, etc) and are free kills anyway, or are going to obliterate him. If you are doing a shooting, deep striking termie list, he is good to use the storm bolter/sword. You don't want the squad to be fighting lots of TEQ anyway (unless they are CSM or SW and have power swords/mauls/claws etc). It's better to just let them shoot. With something like Knights or a TH/SS squad the SS/TH combo is fine, particularly if you are going to be fighting a really tough HQ character or MCs. Basically, it just helps him not die.
Let me explain why Belial is bad. Belial is bad, but hes not terrible. On a scale of 1 to 10, hes a 3. Azrael is a 8. That's why you should take Azrael when possible. IMHO if Belial was priced at 140 he would be worth it, but 190 is far to much.
What Makes an IC Good Why do you take an IC? You want an IC for the following reasons.
* Kill enemy units.
* Buff your units
* Change your strategy.
The more of these an IC an provide, the better an IC is. Some ICs, like Abbadon as amazingly good at killing enemy units, yet are limited on the buffing capacity. Loyalist ICs tend to be better at the buffing capacity yet worse that the killing capacity.
Killing enemy units * Belial has the ability to make percision strikes on a 5+. That's of limited value. He only has a SB so will be getting 2 shots anyway. Of those, hes only killing a MEQ 5/36 of the time, but is at least getting precision shots 2/3 of those times. Still, its a pretty weak ability.
* Belial only had 3 attacks. This means in assault hes doing 1.25 AP2 wounds per turn to enemy models of WS6+ and 1.66 wounds to models of WS5 or less. If he gets stuck in with a unit of orks he will be overwhelmed because he just can't kill fast enough!
* Belial has a 2+/4++ or 2+/3++. This is actually not half bad, yet would be a lot better if he had 4 wounds or EW.
Buff your units * Belial lets you not scatter your deep strike -- a marginal ability. This would be gold if he could load up on combi-meltas or combi-plasma, but storm bolters don't care if your 6" or 24" away. Its best benefit is that you can deep strike in a tight spot.
Examples of good abilities would be "Bolter Drill" on Lysander, or "Lion Helm" on Azrael.
Change your Strategy * Belial makes terminators troops, which is a decent buffing ability.
Why take Azrael over Belial? Look at the first measuring stick. Azrael has more attacks and a higher strength. He has more wounds and FNP. He has a combi-plas Azrael lets every model in your army use his LD score. He gives any unit hes in a 4++ save. Most importantly, he can choose his warlord trait! Are you playing a flyer heavy list? Take 'Brilliant Planning' and reduce your opponents reserves rolls by 1. Are you sticking him in an IG blob, take 'Hold at All Costs' to give your blob FNP in addition to their 4++ save.
Finally Azrael lets you alter your strategy even more -- as you can also take ravenwing as troops with him.
Belial is fine - not great, but workable. But you should definitely use his no-scatter ability. With 3 squads you can afford to hold one (with Belial) and drop him where you want. As a bonus you get TL that turn on the dropped squad.
2013/07/11 19:50:50
Subject: Pure Deathwing 1000 points - opinions needed
I agree that Azrael is much better than Belial, I'm just saying, that in this instance, Belial can work fine, as he is basically just the tax to make your DW score. He is also cheaper and allows you to take the FNP banner command squad, as well as free up points for your special weapons options. It's weighing individual power vs army-wide potential. Beither is a cc monster, but they essentially are doing the same thing to the army.
In terms of damage, both Belial and Azrael do about the same, because Belial wounds on a 2+ thanks to flesh bane, but he has one less attack. He is good at killing anything MEQ or lower, but is bad against TEQ (as are all of the DA heroes, minus Sammael). Neither have Eternal Warrior, and both essentially have the same save. I find his precision shot ueful against certain opponents. Things like IG and Orks etc are useful to snipe the plasma / melta guns, sergeants that tie down your whole squad, or nobs etc. I fight IG a lot, so i tend to field Belial with his sword and storm bolter, as a hammer is overkill. Against CSM though, the hammer is probably better.
It really comes down to whether you want a better character to give defensive buffs or more killing potential in your squads (due to being cheaper). In this case, I would probably stick with Belial as it allows the army to take better killing potential with special weapons and banners etc.
- VardenV2
The Reactor Core - Commission Painting Service: http://reactorcorepainting.com _________________________________________
2013/07/11 20:16:09
Subject: Pure Deathwing 1000 points - opinions needed
If you want Belial to do decent in assault give him a command squad with a DW Banner, HF, and kit them for assault. DS next to some bad guys, light them on fire, and yell "Come at me bro!"
But you should definitely use his no-scatter ability.
Over 1000pts it dose have some applications (Double hf on a soft enemy hq for example, or possibly rear shots on a vehicle)
But at 1000 pts deathwing will only ever have 3 squads, and so splitting them also makes them more easy to focus.
Add to this that if I use Belial, it will be to unlock the FNP banner, and then I will want to keep the squads next to each other to make back the high cost of the item.
In terms of damage, both Belial and Azrael do about the same
I would have to disagree with you there, Azrael with his 2 extra attacks and rapid fire combi plasma with potential blind put him ahead in my book.
Fleshbane vs str 6 attacks means vs most TEQ and lower, they are actually the same.
The only cases where this wouldn't be true would be monstrous creatures, where fleshbane will give Belial the edge. Or vs TEQ and you give Belial TH/SS.
2013/07/12 05:07:32
Subject: Pure Deathwing 1000 points - opinions needed
I haven't tried the FNP banner, is it really that great?
I've had great success with the DW banner. The extra attacks make a nice CC squad.
Oh and Belial is only better than Azrael against MCs, but if your taking Belial you should have plenty of fists and hammers to deal with them by default.
It really depends what you are up against. Most people say the best way to take down TEQ is just to make them roll many dice, and FNP will cut those losses down by 33%. It also gives you some more protection vs plasma, which has become more common in 6th. I have been playing vs SWs reccently, lists with GH's with duel plasmaguns, and the banner earned more than double its points back.
However if there are lots of str 8 ap 2 on the board, then the banner may struggle to be worth it.
The one thing I dislike about the DA banners are the ranges, it often resticts the deployment of your army. FNP is ok-ish at range 12, but dakka banner range 6 is so small (I wouldnt change this, it is needed for balance, I just feel that is limits your deployment sometimes.)
2013/07/12 22:57:44
Subject: Pure Deathwing 1000 points - opinions needed
Ill have to try it then. The DW Banner's extra attacks make the Command Squad really deadly. Perhaps that's being a bit aggressive with them considering the model count. Increasing their survivability would be really nice.
1500 Blood Angels with Dark Angel allies (IP)
1750 Deathwing (IP)
500pt Space Wolves (IP)
really enjoyed it, makes me want to start Deathwing. Is it expensive money wise to field a 
