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 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Are Harker and Straken decent choices?

I was thinking HW squads, screening troops and lots of hellhounds.

This is for a new league, not tourneys.

Straken (plus priest) is good in more casual games. three attacks, S4 guardsmen can do some work, especially when combined with psychic barrier.

Harker is fantastic in any list. One of my favorite packages for tournaments is harker plus three or more LRBTs/manticores.

 Billagio wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
With the new Knight codex a Shadowsword is no longer an effective counter.
It will wound but probably not kill a Knight if your going first or outflank it with Tallarn.
And then it just dies.

I'm with MrMoustaffa, your better of bringing 20 lascannons.

Im mainly playing against people who dont bring knights

He was probably referring to my comment about how to deal with knights as I mentioned a shadowsword is no longer viable unless you take multiples.

I will agree it feels that infantry heavy lists need lots of lascannons in order to deal with these new knight armies.

It sucks as I generally run a few battle cannon russes and they do some damage but soak up lots of points.

Well the humble infantry squad with Lascannons/plasma setup has served me well since 8th dropped. It kind of goes against everything you learn as a guard player though, as it is truly a jack of all trades squad designed to do a bit of everything. Usually when I run them I double down and take as many as physically possible, which usually means I'm running pure IG. And when I say doubling down, I mean it, often at least 10 squads, and then I had conscripts on top of that with some lists. Their main issue is they become very expensive screens that way, so they ironically need a screen of their own. Valhallans do well with them since I bring conscripts with chenkov anyways for the theme of that list, but with other regiments I often found it was a good idea to bring a few barebones squads to go where you knew they were going to die no matter what.

I don't feel they're a viable choice for soup or armored players, but for a player wanting a heavy infantry allotment they are golden. There are just so many abilities that can affect them to boost their firepower however you need it, and there isn't a list in the game where they don't have something worth shooting. Their big weakness is Altaoic, pure and simple. Others, like Raven guard you can reliably drop with weight of fire, but eldar just have too many shenanigans to get you 6's or worse.

The real question is optimal regiment choice. Cadian seems obvious but I hate sitting still, that said you can get one really big turn with the relic and every other turn if you OFoF. Catachans can make theirs even more generalist by sprinkling in priests, straken, and harker so they can counter turn 1 assaults. Valhallans have good morale to keep the special weapons firing and can fire into combat (ironically a great way to kill enemy characters I've found). Mordians can get some good use out of them with overwatch but many abilities get around that these days.

Honestly the only 3 I'm not crazy with it are Armageddon, who still aren't bad. Tallarn, because their whole schtick is movement and not taking heavy weapons. And Vostroyan, because their order isnt as flexible as Valhalla's, their strategem would only work on one squad, and their regiment trait doesn't do a whole lot to boost effectiveness.

If anyone wants to try this, you need to know how you're going to counter turn 1 things like Raven guard aggressors and smash captain, and how you will deal with hard to hit targets. I've had fun with a wall of leman Russe's backing my men up and lots of officer support, but if I was trying to be optimal I'd have 3 Icarus admech onagers, some sort of indirect fire, and a way to get some sort of fast melee unit to push the opponent off of objectives like blood Angels or a knight.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Well the humble infantry squad with Lascannons/plasma setup has served me well since 8th dropped. It kind of goes against everything you learn as a guard player though, as it is truly a jack of all trades squad designed to do a bit of everything. Usually when I run them I double down and take as many as physically possible, which usually means I'm running pure IG. And when I say doubling down, I mean it, often at least 10 squads, and then I had conscripts on top of that with some lists. Their main issue is they become very expensive screens that way, so they ironically need a screen of their own. Valhallans do well with them since I bring conscripts with chenkov anyways for the theme of that list, but with other regiments I often found it was a good idea to bring a few barebones squads to go where you knew they were going to die no matter what.

I don't feel they're a viable choice for soup or armored players, but for a player wanting a heavy infantry allotment they are golden. There are just so many abilities that can affect them to boost their firepower however you need it, and there isn't a list in the game where they don't have something worth shooting. Their big weakness is Altaoic, pure and simple. Others, like Raven guard you can reliably drop with weight of fire, but eldar just have too many shenanigans to get you 6's or worse.

The real question is optimal regiment choice. Cadian seems obvious but I hate sitting still, that said you can get one really big turn with the relic and every other turn if you OFoF. Catachans can make theirs even more generalist by sprinkling in priests, straken, and harker so they can counter turn 1 assaults. Valhallans have good morale to keep the special weapons firing and can fire into combat (ironically a great way to kill enemy characters I've found). Mordians can get some good use out of them with overwatch but many abilities get around that these days.

Honestly the only 3 I'm not crazy with it are Armageddon, who still aren't bad. Tallarn, because their whole schtick is movement and not taking heavy weapons. And Vostroyan, because their order isnt as flexible as Valhalla's, their strategem would only work on one squad, and their regiment trait doesn't do a whole lot to boost effectiveness.

If anyone wants to try this, you need to know how you're going to counter turn 1 things like Raven guard aggressors and smash captain, and how you will deal with hard to hit targets. I've had fun with a wall of leman Russe's backing my men up and lots of officer support, but if I was trying to be optimal I'd have 3 Icarus admech onagers, some sort of indirect fire, and a way to get some sort of fast melee unit to push the opponent off of objectives like blood Angels or a knight.

If you want Admech for Onagers you can add in some Dragoons as your melee unit.

 Polonius wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Are Harker and Straken decent choices?

I was thinking HW squads, screening troops and lots of hellhounds.

This is for a new league, not tourneys.

Straken (plus priest) is good in more casual games. three attacks, S4 guardsmen can do some work, especially when combined with psychic barrier.

Harker is fantastic in any list. One of my favorite packages for tournaments is harker plus three or more LRBTs/manticores.

Thanks!

If you run Harker + artillery it's even stronger than Cadians without maximising their Stratagems.

The relic only benefits cadians for the reroll wounds of 1 since they reroll hits of 1 if they dont move already right? (assuming non chaos enemy)

 Billagio wrote:
The relic only benefits cadians for the reroll wounds of 1 since they reroll hits of 1 if they dont move already right? (assuming non chaos enemy)

On the surface yes, but sitting still is a major trap that the Cadian doctrine encourages. As a guard player you really should be moving as much as possible, sitting still every turn just gives your opponent the initiative and makes you only able to react, which is a surefire way to lose games. Be that moving up to take objectives or moving back to buy yourself time from assaults, you need to be deciding the flow of the game, not just sitting there and rolling dice. I see a lot of new guard players fall into this trap, myself included when the codex first dropped. You just get in that mindset of "if I move I lose rerolls!" not realizing that by sitting still you're giving up rapid fire, or allowing yourself to be charged, or losing a key objective.

Thats what makes the relic nice, it let's your army move up on a critical phase and not lose any real firepower. Combine it with overlapping fields of fire and it can win games. In my opinion Overlapping Fields of fire and the relic are the real reasons to run Cadians anyways. So many lists these days run centerpiece death star units that are designed to suckerpunch your army. That strategem relic combo lets you focus them down faster than any other regiment in the codex. In addition, the Cadian relic has twice the range of Harker, and overlapping fields of fire works for your whole army. This means you'll see more impact from this combo than Harker could ever provide.

Harker on the other hand is a 6" aura on a single character. He will only ever buff part of your force, since bunching up around him would be suicide. His buff is nice, but when you look around you realize that Catachans give up a lot to get his bonus. Their strategem is incredibly niche and not even in the shooting phase, their order is niche, and their relic isn't even that great compared to just taking another powerfist. Harker is there more to make sure your firebase of tanks and artillery can efficiently back up your more aggressive infantry elements and hellhounds than he is some sort of army wide buffs.

This makes sense though. After all Cadians are relying on a relic and spamming CP's to get their firepower buffs and have more extreme ones because they lack melee punch. Catachans are more of an all around army thanks to their leadership and melee buffs, so they don't need to double down on firepower quite as much as a Cadian list would. So for Catachans, a simple 50pt character to keep an eye on a firebase works just fine.

Interesting I’ll have to give it a shot. I’m not new to guard but am newish to 8th guard so getting used to all the stratagems and the combos to use is a bit of a learning curve but I’ve been fairly successful so far. I might be wrong but it seems like our stratagems are fairly lackluster(though I do like defensive gunners on the executioner)

Moustaffa, excellent summary.

I play Catachans and you're exactly right. If you're not making use of S4, leadership 8 infantry, brutal strength + Harker, you're not being efficient. I wish our Stratagem wasn't so niche. I've probably only used it 2 or 3 times. It's pretty awful.

For some reason I never considered putting the Blade of Conquest on a priest until recently. It's actually pretty good.

I run that, a CC with plasma pistol + Mamorph Tuskblade, and Straken in 3 Chimeras with infantry that have power sword SGTs and they can do some serious work. By the time that starts dwindling, my foot Bullgryn slam in to clean house. Supported, of course, by a Hellhound, Conqueror, and punisher fireball Russ. It's this pressure backed up by my infantry squads with plasma and heavy weapons, tanks, and artillery that make it a well balanced TAC list. I know it could be more competitive but who enjoys stomping random nice folks at their FLGS?

As others mentioned above what’s all the hype of the raven guard aggressors and turn 1? I’ve never gone against them.

 tankboy145 wrote:
As others mentioned above what’s all the hype of the raven guard aggressors and turn 1? I’ve never gone against them.

So here's the basic jist.

Each aggressor has an assault 6 bolter profile and an additional 1d6 Bolter profile. This means each aggressor puts out between 7-12 shots, with an 18" range and the assault profile. In addition, they each get power fists, T5, and 2 wounds apiece. Their gimmick is if they sit still they can fire a second time (and apparently this works on overwatch too)

On their own, they're not that scary, and any competent guard list doesn't have much to worry about. They're slow and lack transport options to get in your face, and if he sits still to double his shots you can maneuver to keep him from gg Etting good shots.

The shenanigans kick in with Raven Guards infiltrate ability. It fixes every single weakness they have. Now they get to deploy 9" away turn one, so speed is no longer an issue. In addition, strike from the shadows doesn't count as movement, it was before the game. This means each aggressor is now putting out 12+2d6 shots turn 1 from 9" away. It is the ultimate screen destroyer, and they're not very expensive pts wise. Where they get really good is they're not slouches in melee either since they all have power fists, and if you try to counter charge them their overwatch is unreal.

This is a serious issue for the traditional IG list. They've got weight of fire to clear easily 3-4 squads in an opening volley, and have the punch to threaten armor that is deployed poorly. They're absolutely nuts and make conscripts FRFSRF look like a joke. They do have 3 key weaknesses though.

1. They're glass cannons. Yes they are T5 2w 3+ save, but there's only going to be between 3-6 of them. They will get one good turn then die to return fire.

2. They can't shoot what they can't see. Hiding critical infantry squads behind cover or vehicles can help force the Raven guard player to waste shots. Remember, his ability allows him to target new units with his second volley. You have to accept your first screen WILL die and have a backup line ready to step in.

3. They absolutely rely on going first. If you set up a good deployment screen and he fails to go first, he'll have to infiltrate them far more conservatively and will have very low odds of doing much other than trying to deny ground.

They're scary the first time you see them, but once you learn their tricks you'll be ok. I've beaten them screening with Skitarii but have yet to face them with my typical infantry guard lists. I'm not too worried because usually people running the aggressors don't have much that can capitalize on them. The day I see blood Angels and knights allied with them I'll be much more concerned.

Okay I can certainly see why they can be pretty good. Certainly can get rid of a screen and mess some units up. But they also very much are a glass cannon.

Thoughts on stratagems? I know we can get a lot of CPs, but im having trouble spending all them. Im mostly spending CPs on rerolls, Defensive Gunners, Morale and OLFoF. It just seems like we dont have a lot of offensive stratagems, but maybe im wrong and am missing something?

My main opponent plays tyranids and hes got some really good ones (double shots, double damage on monster shooting, regain wounds, double advance on kraken etc). Seems like compared to that we are lacking (but I guess orders make up for that?)

When you have a lot of command points, there’s no reason to not use them for any strategum that catches your fancy. Don’t forget vengeance for cadia

That one seems super situational, with only affecting Chaos

I have thought the same thing, we have a few key Stratagems that see heavy use, like Take Cover! But then there are the other 50+% I never use. I also play Catachans, so take that into consideration that they don't have a very good regimental Stratagem.

I was thinking about trying out searchlights again. But man, 40pts I could have another guard squad ... I'm just tired of -1 to hit everywhere.

It just feels weird that we are an army about heavy firepower, but dont have a lot of stratagems that really reflect that it seems. Then you look at the Tyranids who get a double shoot stratagem and double damage ones. Overall their strats seem super good compared to ours.

Well that 1 forward observers Stratagem can allow a Wyvern to actually be playable. Haha.

Yes, our stratagems are quite bad in comparison to others. Thats the reason why guard is mostly use as CP farm and back objective holder. Most players use the CPs for other detachments, like blood angels or custodes.

Just look at their strats...chaos, eldar, tyranids, ba, custodes...we cant compare to those...

Thats what I figured, just wanted to make sure I wasnt missing something. Shame.

What are your recomendations for flyer detachment? Id like to add some air dakka actually and was thinking about stormtalon gunships. I.know that vultures exists but I like my kidneys so if we could actually rule out FW models

Well, there’s only one in the codex, so you’re looking at a couple of choices common to Astartes codices, I suppose. Really, the stormtalon, stormhawk, and/or stormraven are the only options unless you’re looking at deathwatch or space wolves, but I don’t think either of those are all that worthwhile as supplements.

Could just buy a Valkyrie and make your own vulture/vendetta parts. Wouldn’t be a huge hassle, imo.

Hi guys, I want to try fielding a little unit of 3 crusaders, with no priest. Acts of faith make them maneuverable and regenerating. Easily hidden. More easily buffed to 2++ than bullgryns.

Basically, they're budget bullgryns, with better speed. I'm taking them not for their damage output but for their ability to screen big guns and characters.

It's only 45 points! A 2-man squad can be taken for just 30! Has anyone experimented with such a unit?

Is an armored company in any way viable nowadays?
What do you need in it?
What do you need to add to it?

At 2k seems one can run 2 hellhounds, 5 conquerors, 3 punishers, 1 tank commanders and have some points leftovers for a little support.
Is it a bad idea or a very bad idea. In either case how would you make it work?

Hey, guys. I built into guard for a CP Battery as most did, but I'm finding myself really enjoying guard more and more now that I have them.

That being said, I'm a big fan of foot guard, and wanted to know if any of you have experience or suggestions using blobs od bodies to any success, and if so what regiment?

I'm going to continue using them alongside my imperial knights, but I am curious what works best. It seems most of the regiments have something to offer.

Doctor-boom wrote:
Is an armored company in any way viable nowadays?
What do you need in it?
What do you need to add to it?

At 2k seems one can run 2 hellhounds, 5 conquerors, 3 punishers, 1 tank commanders and have some points leftovers for a little support.
Is it a bad idea or a very bad idea. In either case how would you make it work?

I think it's a little bit of a bad idea, if only because you have nothing really long range. I think that an all, or nearly all, armored list could work, but I think bending it even a little bit makes it a lot better. The list that I'm toying around with for a nearly pure tank list is something like:

Catachan Spearhead:
Primaris Psyker
Harker
3x LRBTx3
2x Hellhound x2
Griffon Mortar Carrier

So, the clear downside is that you only have 4 CP, but this list doesn't care all that much. I'd make the primaris the warlord and take old grudges for a re-roll against something hard.

on the flip side, tweaking this even a bit, so that you include some infantry, I think you can run a much more balanced army with a catachan spearhead and a cadian battatlion.

2x CC
3x Infantry
3x Mortarsx3
4x Basilisks

Primaris
Harker
8x LRBT




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hey, guys. I built into guard for a CP Battery as most did, but I'm finding myself really enjoying guard more and more now that I have them.

That being said, I'm a big fan of foot guard, and wanted to know if any of you have experience or suggestions using blobs od bodies to any success, and if so what regiment?

I'm going to continue using them alongside my imperial knights, but I am curious what works best. It seems most of the regiments have something to offer.

So... you want to go all infantry?

The first issue is simple logistics. It's not a tournament army, not because it's not good, but because it takes a long time to pull out, deploy, move, and put away. However, it can be very, very strong.

An all infantry army can almost trivially fit THREE battalions, for 18 starting CP, which is probably about as many as you could conceivably use. You can also look at rough riders to fill out a brigade, which will up the CPs even further. At that point, you're more limited by a lack of orders than CPs, so you want to look hard at Creed for a warlord. You also will want to take advantage of multiple regimental doctrines to built your line.

so, assuming you start with a cadian bridgade and two tallarn battalions, you can have this for just over 1200 points:
Creed
3x Company Commanders
3x Platoon Commanders
6x Infantry w/ Las/Plas
6x Infantry w/ Plas
3x Rough Ridersx5, plasma x2
3x HWS, Mortars x3

So, that's 9 mortars, six lascannons, 18 plasma guns, three smites, 12 orders, and well over a hundred bodies. And you still have room!

I'd splash in three astropaths, give officers power weapons and plasma pistols, and then look hard at ratlings (for speed bumps) and special weapon squads (more plasma)

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, there’s only one in the codex, so you’re looking at a couple of choices common to Astartes codices, I suppose. Really, the stormtalon, stormhawk, and/or stormraven are the only options unless you’re looking at deathwatch or space wolves, but I don’t think either of those are all that worthwhile as supplements.

Could just buy a Valkyrie and make your own vulture/vendetta parts. Wouldn’t be a huge hassle, imo.

Vendettas are utterly useless (for the points) until they actually get an errata and receive roving gunship. Vultures are not great themselves, but at least they're good for .. most of a squad of guardsmen.

I wish rough riders were part of the codex so they were worth the time/effort/money to build and convert. I would happily make some for my guard.

The whole "index only" thing has me wary to bother, though.

Are vultures really that bad? To me they seem like a punisher but tougher (more wounds and -1 to hit), faster, potentially better ballistic skill, and can't be locked in CC.