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Speculation thread incoming

Im creating an Only War/Deathwatch campaigns with a few friends that will take place 200 years in the future. I want to change up the setting so it feels like the story is changing around them. This is one of the things I want to think about.

This was hinted at a lot in the UM novels. Chapter Masters are not invincible, eventually Marneus Calgar will fall in battle and the position of chapter Master will be passed down. Apperently, traditionally in the Ultramarines, the position of CM has always gone to the 1st Company Captain, in this case that is Severus Agemman.

However, because of the success Cato Sicarius, many believe he will take the title of CM instead of Agemman. This is a cause for tension between not only the 2 companies but in many of the other companies as well because of Sicarius' ambition but Agemman's rank

So im looking for your opinion DakkaDakka. Do you think that the 2 would be able to solve this peacefully? if so who would you think would take the position.
If conflict occurs, will it be a small honorable duel between the two? Or will their be a mini UM Civil War? Who will emerge victorious and if the later, what type of casualties would occur?


Ill welcome any type of speculations or personal setting you guys may have.

Here is hoping this thread gets responses

I like the idea of Ultramarines having a mini-heresy war.

Captain Titus Valens comes in and steals it from them both.

mudhutman222 wrote:
I like the idea of Ultramarines having a mini-heresy war.

Me too. The UM are far too "poster boy" in the current fluff. A UM civil war would be an amazing story backdrop. Especially if its the steady Agemman vs. Sicarius' massive ego.

Calgar has been the Chapter Master since the late 80s/Early 90s and the days of Rogue Trader. I don't think that's changing any time soon, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Calgar has been the Chapter Master since the late 80s/Early 90s and the days of Rogue Trader. I don't think that's changing any time soon, lol.

While true, this thread is asking who'd be a better replacement for a fanonical campaign.

Ultramarines would never have a civil war they are way too codex astaries compliant. I'm sure the codex has a mechanism/procedure for choosing a new chapter master that the would follow to the letter. I think traditionally the captain of the 1st company would get it because they are held in the highest esteem by their brothers but some of the graham Mitchell books imply it might be democratically decided in some form and cato is ambitious and well thought off by plenty of brothers (not sure if it is the whole chapter or just the command counsel ect).

Cato is too vainglorious for me. Agemman ftw.

Not that Cally is going anytime soon.

Agemman would get it by default, unless of course Calgar declares Sicarius as his official successor. If there's a conflict, it'd go to a vote between the other 8 Captains and the rest of the Chapter Council, including Honour Guard.
Each Master's vote would hold more/less sway than another. Chaplain Cassius, for example, would hold more sway than Corpus Helix, or Fennias Maxim.

If it did go to vote, I assume that Agemman would have votes from Cassius and Fabian at least. Agemman and Cassius have very close ties, due to the Tyrannic War Veterans program, and Fabian due to his role in the Battle for Macragge.
Judging from the Ultramarine novels, I can see Ventris swaying towards Agemman, with whom he seems to have a (slightly) better relationship.
That's two of the three remaining Battle Company Captains backing Agemman, along with the Master of Sanctity, a renowned orator and one of the most respected living Ultramarines.

In Sicarius' corner though, I can see Tigurius, with whom he seems to fight alongside often, and Galenus, who succeeded him as Captain of the 5th.
That's also quite a weight of votes to have behind you though.

We can only really speculate on how the others would vote though, perhaps Ixion would also vote for Agemman, purely due to his association with Fabian and Agemman at the Battle for Macragge.

I'd quite like to see the civil war though. That would be brilliant.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Calgar has been the Chapter Master since the late 80s/Early 90s and the days of Rogue Trader. I don't think that's changing any time soon, lol.

It is a thread asking for advice on what the OP wants to do with his fanon.

Anyway, it seems obvious to me that Toras Telion will be the next Ultramarines chapter master, making him the first chapter master in history to wear scout armour.

Edit: Personally, I don't see a civil war as likely. The Ultramarines are very much big picture guys, and willing to sacrifice their pride to assess the situation objectively. Agemman, if Sicarius was a more worthy chapter master, would be content in his promotion. Tigurius backing his succession is further fuel, since chief librarians are basically second only to chapter masters in word and gak.

I'd say that the Master of Sanctity would hold equal, if not more sway than the Chief Librarian. The Reclusiam is the soul of the Chapter.

Damn is it to much to hope that Uriel Ventris gets it... I love his ass!

fidel wrote:
Damn is it to much to hope that Uriel Ventris gets it... I love his ass!

I love him to but not a chance in hell. He is the youngest of all the captains and doesnt have that much combat xp under him

 Galdos wrote:

fidel wrote:
Damn is it to much to hope that Uriel Ventris gets it... I love his ass!

I love him to but not a chance in hell. He is the youngest of all the captains and doesnt have that much combat xp under him

Not to mention the whole Death Oath thing...

fidel wrote:
Damn is it to much to hope that Uriel Ventris gets it... I love his ass!

Maybe if he's still around when the next CM dies, he'll have a chance. As things stand - with the quality candidates already there (Cato and Agemman) plus UM traditions (1st. Co. Capt. is next in line) - Ventris has little to no chance of getting the nod. He (and his fanbois) will have to either wait, or hope that at least 3 other captains die in the near future.

I like to think that Captain Invictus is secretly still alive and will come back with his plasma blaster blazing.

I like him mostly because I is an Ultramarine that is not really restricted by the codex.. Kinda like a Non-ultramarine Ultramarine...

Welp - as a grey knight player all I gotta do is just hint that the others are heretics - with how egotistical the others are (their heads are so far up their own asses)... it shouldnt be that hard!

I reckon it depends on how much Sicarius achieves within the time lapse. He is already in great stead but at this point Agemman is winning. Sicarius may be good but Calgar would know electing Sicarius successor would rub the First Captain wrong.

However, if Sicarius was to keep on his meteoric rise like this he certainly has a good chance. IIRC, the UM 2nd are noted as "the greatest fighting unit in this or any other chapter" somewhere in the codex? Don't quote m, I'm not sure. In addition, he takes Space Marine Lightning War to a new level and has a string of victories under his belt. Agemman meanwhile, does very little company level warfare with his own company due to his company being "loaned out" to the others. Any commanding he does is really commanding another Captain's company which only shows the discipline of that captain rather the Agemman's abilities.

If Agemman were to take command of the 2nd temporarily and do it better, even just once, he wins outright.

a vote between captains? a VOTE? ultrademocramarines they may be, but space marines they still are. Duel to first blood between Agemman and Sicarius i say.

just too bad one of em has killing blow. hehehe

 Kain wrote:
Captain Titus Valens comes in and steals it from them both.

I think you mean Chapter Master Gabriel Angelos would accept the Ultramarines chapter as a gift. Also, IIRC Space Marine takes place after 999999.M41 and Titus is the Captain of the 2nd Company, which if it is assumed to be canon would mean that either Cato Sicarius was killed, promoted, or is indisposed. So it could be that the Ultramarines needed a new chapter master and Sicarius took Calgar's place.

Buttons wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Captain Titus Valens comes in and steals it from them both.

I think you mean Chapter Master Gabriel Angelos would accept the Ultramarines chapter as a gift. Also, IIRC Space Marine takes place after 999999.M41 and Titus is the Captain of the 2nd Company, which if it is assumed to be canon would mean that either Cato Sicarius was killed, promoted, or is indisposed. So it could be that the Ultramarines needed a new chapter master and Sicarius took Calgar's place.

No that's an alternate reality...
Not even kidding.

It's 40k. It could be anything.

Also, Agemman would get it by tradition. It really depends if one of them dies first or Calgar declares Sicarius his successor.

As well, the Master of Sanctity is probably equal to the Chief Librarian, especially Cassius. After all, Cassius got away with breaking from the codex in the Ultramarines of all chapters.

 Kain wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Calgar has been the Chapter Master since the late 80s/Early 90s and the days of Rogue Trader. I don't think that's changing any time soon, lol.

While true, this thread is asking who'd be a better replacement for a fanonical campaign.

My bad. I missed that part. This probably belongs in the RPG forum then.

However, I think the Ultramarines are a bad chapter to use for this. They're so doctrinal and disciplined, it's going to be really difficult to come up with a believable scenario where there is a civil war. This is a chapter with 10000 years of heritage and accolade, and the position of being the most prestigious of Space Marine chapters by virtue of both their excellent battle record, and their untainted gene seed. It seems fairly hard to believe that a Captain would rise to power who was so consumed with personal ambition that he'd throw away the Ultramarines' coveted place as the first among Space Marine Chapters with a potentially heretical mutiny.

I think you'll end up with a far more believable story if you use a less entrenched and established chapter.

I like to think that the Ultramarines could definitely have a civil war. I don't personally believe that following a set of guidelines (the codex) has anything to do with the willingness or ability to fight inwardly with each other. The Ultramarines still have personality. Just because they follow to codex doesn't mean they are as unthinking as necron warriors.

Anyways, Cato takes it. If he doesn't get himself killed in the next 200 years.

Agemman gets promoted to Chapter Master, Sicarius gets promoted to Captain of the First Company. Agemman suffers an untimely demise after a hundred or so years as Chapter Master, Sicarius gets promoted to Chapter Master. Problem solved.

Calgar is mortally wounded in battle saving Sicarius' life and as his dying body is taken from the battlefield he personally declares Sicarius his successor as Chapter Master, breaking with the tradition of passing the title down to the1st Company Captain.
Unfortunately circumstances dictate that only Sicarius is around to hear it (in typical Hollywood dying-in-his-arms fashion), and following the battle the high ranking officers of the chapter refute Sicarius' claim to the leadership publicly, stating they knew Calgar and that he would never break with tradition in such a way and it's Agemman's right as Captain of the 1st Company to take charge.
A council meeting is called to resolve the issue. Those who have seen centuries of battle under Sicarius' leadership and tutelage remain loyal to him, supporting his claim. Those who wish to follow tradition argue against his promotion and a heated dispute ensues at the council meeting, quickly snowballing into a fist fight and then into a full blown brawl at the hands of Sicarius' bloated ego. During the melee, an accidental discharge of a weapon results in the death of [insert ranking officer here] which proves to be the catalyst for an Ultramarine civil war.

You then have the pretence for your campaign.

I think it'd be great for the story line if calgar fell, its getting rather stagnant

In gaming pretenses; Calgar is killed/disappears by a massive invasion by [insert enemy race here]. Following his hasty promotion to CM, Agemann demands any Imperial forces nearby to assist in the battle for the planet/system, as Exterminatus is out of the question because of the Planet/System's strategic value. (This provides reasons for other imperial armies to play). Drawn to the 'weakness' of the Sector's usually immaculate defence under the guidance of the Ultramarines, other races vie for the system/planet in a Dawn of War style free for all. As Agemann is occupied, the Imperial's forces are commanded by Captain Sicarius, the now Captain of the 1st Company. (This enables regular appearances by a GW supplied model in games, as an Imperial defend-at-all-costs warlord/lord general.)

Therefore it becomes an Imperial versus Xenos war. This explains all players' armies presence, and explains DeathWatch games(Guerilla/Strategic Sword Strike warfare) and larger battles.

At the end of the campaign maybe there could be a mega battle, where a converted Calgar model with different head and details (Agemann) and Sicarius' Imperial forces fight the collection of Xenos in a conveniently updated Apocalypse battle structure, not only providing a narrative and enjoyable campaign, but could provide a story for the future rise/fall of Sicarius in his goal to become Chapter Master, and the future of the Smurfs/Imperium.
THERE IS ONLY WAR!!!

I like red's idea there. It would be far more likely of the more hotheaded Sicarius to lead a campaign of vengeance, and the longer-sighted Agemman would perhaps see what this would do to the sector and try to stop him. THAT could be what sparks off the infighting.

Have a setting where it's not decided yet. You could say that Calgar has only just recently popped his clogs (what's going to have happened to him in your narrative btw?) and his successor is still an issue. Cue a somewhat leaderless chapter with Sicarius and Agemann both running around doing whatever they think will get them elected/ordained/prove they're the best. It could be interesting to have egos get the better of the codex astartes

Perhaps a literal pissing contest, in a back alley somewhere on macragge, it's an obscure tie-breaker clause in small print at the bottom of the codex