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Yea, but in the creation of a campaign sense, it (sorta) has to be compatible with other armies too, how many Ultramarines are actually playing in this campaign?


Plus, I can't really imagine Space Marines, let alone Cato and Agemann having a literal pissing contenst to see who gets to the lead the Ultramarines Space Marine Chapter. It seems kind of ironic - the leader of perhaps one of the most powerful Space Marine Chapters is elected by a rather inconclusive test of 'masculinity'.

One thing to remember about the Ultramarines, we are not perfect. Our flaws are pride and hubris.

If Sicarius gets the nod as successor before Calgar dies, I suspect Agemman would suck it up and deal, but there would be a bit of resentment. I think he'd be professional enough to keep things together and not splinter off, but chapter politics would be interesting.

The more likely option is the 1st company captain steps up, and Sicarius moves up to fill the empty slot. I suspect his hot head and big ego will try to influence the new chapter master in what direction to go, but will be given an important/suicide mission to take care of. This will give Agemman time to consolidate power, but will make things interesting when Sicarius comes back covered in glory (again)

On a semi-related note, talking about Ultramarine leadership: Who is the current captain of the third? IIRC from the 2nd ed. codex (which I can't seem to find) Fabian was in charge during the tyranid invasion. He is still listed as the captain in the organization section of the 5th codex. But Cpt. Ardias is listed in the 3rd ed. as commanding, and is called by name on the chapter's banners page of the latest codex.

In my personal fluff reconciliation, Fabian was mortally wounded during the fight in the polar fortress, and installed into a dreadnought, Ardias succeeded him to the captaincy. But do more recent books say anything one way or another?

Plus, it wouldn't lead to direct infighting, it would probably be a little tinkering here, a well placed bomb here could lead to an invasion, allowing one of the contenders to swoop in and save the other, proving their superiority. But... I can't really see that happening.

Ultramar could really become the 2nd Imperium...

The thing is, and I agree with rednecron, is that the Ultramarines just don't fit the mold for the "bitchy infighting". Space Marines in general don't.

Some Space Marines go their entire lives as basic Marines, maybe eventually becoming Veterans. It's a tiny organization, with only a handful of upper echelon spots. There are exactly ten Captain positions. And only five of those are truly prestigious. Space Marines live for hundreds of years. A captain has probably already waited a long, long time, decades probably, possibly over a century, for one of the captains above him to be killed or forced to retire due to injury just to get the spot he has now. What's going to be his hurry to be Chapter Master? Why does he risk a career that is hundreds of years old, and his very soul, to a mutiny?

This is where people, and a lot of BL authors , seem to have a disconnect. It's easy to think of Space Marines in terms of human motivations and emotions. But they're not humans. We live for a hundred years if we're lucky. In 40K, that can be extended by juvenat treatments, but it doesn't seem to be terribly common. And the Imperial Guard is vast. A Guard officer's career is measured in decades. A Guard officer might be motivated to try to advance his career. He only has so long until he is too old to get a command.

If a Space Marine has to wait another hundred years, what's the difference to him?

While I see your point... don't forget that Marines do turn to Chaos for exactly these reasons. The motivation must be there, even if it is less likely with all the training.

Just because they are post-human doesn't mean they don't have human emotions, otherwise it'd be impossible for Chaos to entice them. Space Marines have ambition but generally are wise and loyal enough to accept decisions made against them, unless it is totally unjustified or based on false information. Why wouldn't he want to be Chapter Master, if he believes he can do it better? If he doesn't believe then he won't take the job but if offered or nominated, he must be worthy and so would take it.

 Super Ready wrote:
While I see your point... don't forget that Marines do turn to Chaos for exactly these reasons. The motivation must be there, even if it is less likely with all the training.

Well, not exactly those reasons.

Most of the reasons the Space Marines turn to Chaos are to get things they can't actually have.

 Deadshot wrote:
Just because they are post-human doesn't mean they don't have human emotions, otherwise it'd be impossible for Chaos to entice them. Space Marines have ambition but generally are wise and loyal enough to accept decisions made against them, unless it is totally unjustified or based on false information. Why wouldn't he want to be Chapter Master, if he believes he can do it better? If he doesn't believe then he won't take the job but if offered or nominated, he must be worthy and so would take it.

Wanting to be the Chapter Master, and bucking ten thousand years of tradition, hundreds of years of his own military discipline and esprit de corps,and risking excommunication or even eternal damnation are different things.

I know it's a foreign concept to some people, but you really can't expect to lead if you demonstrate that you can't follow. This is why Chaos Warbands and Orks are perennially so unsuccessful in the long run. The strong lead because they are strong, not because they have earned it. And that's why the second they aren't strong, they get plowed under by the next guy in line. True military organizations continue to exist, and succeed, because they adhere to a structure. People who haven't been in the military (and even junior enlisted) sometimes have a hard time understanding just why the military works the way it does.

Really, you could devise some circumstance where Sicarius believes that Agemman usurped his rightful place, but unless he can prove it, he's not going to act on it, because without the proof, he's just a mutineer.

The 1st company captain is usually a shoe-in since he is a 1st company captain (A position of prestige) and the reason he is a first company captain is because he is a good captain.

It's not tradition but it's more than likely to happen since being a 1st company captain doesn't happen by accident.

So Sicarius could well become the Chapter Master but it's not gonna be a simple case...

 Nevelon wrote:
One thing to remember about the Ultramarines, we are not perfect. Our flaws are pride and hubris.

If Sicarius gets the nod as successor before Calgar dies, I suspect Agemman would suck it up and deal, but there would be a bit of resentment. I think he'd be professional enough to keep things together and not splinter off, but chapter politics would be interesting.

The more likely option is the 1st company captain steps up, and Sicarius moves up to fill the empty slot. I suspect his hot head and big ego will try to influence the new chapter master in what direction to go, but will be given an important/suicide mission to take care of. This will give Agemman time to consolidate power, but will make things interesting when Sicarius comes back covered in glory (again)

On a semi-related note, talking about Ultramarine leadership: Who is the current captain of the third? IIRC from the 2nd ed. codex (which I can't seem to find) Fabian was in charge during the tyranid invasion. He is still listed as the captain in the organization section of the 5th codex. But Cpt. Ardias is listed in the 3rd ed. as commanding, and is called by name on the chapter's banners page of the latest codex.

In my personal fluff reconciliation, Fabian was mortally wounded during the fight in the polar fortress, and installed into a dreadnought, Ardias succeeded him to the captaincy. But do more recent books say anything one way or another?

Two conflicting accounts, one of Fabian succeeding Ardias, another says Ardias succeeds Fabian. Either Ardias falls just prior to the Battle for Macragge, fighting Tau, and Fabian is promoted enough route to Macragge, or Fabian falls on Macragge and Ardias then takes command. There's also another theory about Fabian not actually being a Company Captain, and he just acted as Captain of the 3rd whilst Ardias was injured.

I love the debate going on. TO clear things up for people interested.

My plan is to have that no matter what happens, 2nd company is missing its captain allowing Titus to be promoted to that position allowing for Space Marine the game to be canon (in my little universe)

If 1st Company becomes chapter master through non-violent means, that means Sicarius is the new 1st Company captain. If Sicaris is CM then 2nd Company is still missing its Captain.

My Guardsmen (and in the sequel campaign, Deathwatch) will not actually even encounter the Ultramarines. Im trying to figure out the state of the Ultramarines because this conflict will occur in the sector of the galaxy. Im thinking that if a mini Civil War occured (even if it was quick) it could leave the Ultramarines in a position of weakness.

Without the leadership of the Ultramarines, the Tau have take this time to start a new offensive. With the Space Marines lacking their usual guidance and elite forces of the Ultramarines it is up to the Inquisition to step up to the plate and take command of the sector.


None of the people playing are UM fans. Im the only one who even likes the UMs but Im an Imperial Fist fan first (and the GM) I just want to create a moving forward story that the players can enjoy. A story where it feels like 40k is literally changing around them and they have a chance to make a real impact in the universe.




What it seems like the opinions on this topic is
Majority like the Civil War
Honorable Duel remains the middle option
Diplomatic vote will be the most likely event to occur.

Uriel Ventris would get my vote...
Man is a battle genius, and an all around beast. Just look at his deeds as a young Captain? Destroys Chaos, fights and destroys a Tyranid queen, battles a C'Tan (Nightbringer), the list goes on!
But I'd guess Agemman. Based on the fluff, though Sicarius is a likely candidate, he's to headstrong and vainglorious to run the chapter. He doesn't know how to say "no" when it comes to a fight.

mudhutman222 wrote:
I like the idea of Ultramarines having a mini-heresy war.

NO! We don't need another heresy. The last one sucked enough!

The way I think it would be cool if it went:
Cato's hubris and pride is tempered after he fails, somehow, to prevent the death of his Chapter Master. Despite this and as Marnius' favoured son, is made chapter master of a newly founded successor chapter, and gifted the Gauntlets of Ultramar.
Agemman becomes Ultramarine Chapter Master, but is slighted by the lateral move of Cato.

Likely? No. But I think it would be cool.
Also, where do the Chapter Masters of new chapters come from?

 primeministersinister wrote:
The way I think it would be cool if it went:
Cato's hubris and pride is tempered after he fails, somehow, to prevent the death of his Chapter Master. Despite this and as Marnius' favoured son, is made chapter master of a newly founded successor chapter, and gifted the Gauntlets of Ultramar.
Agemman becomes Ultramarine Chapter Master, but is slighted by the lateral move of Cato.

Likely? No. But I think it would be cool.
Also, where do the Chapter Masters of new chapters come from?

A new (official) founding would be great. UM always make a great candidate as a source of new chapters. That would be "better", but far too simple a solution.

I believe new chapters' CM come are generally the best captain(s) of their source chapter. At least that seems to be how it was done (some of the time?) during the 2nd founding (i.e. Sigismund goes from 1st captain of the Imperial Fists to CM of the Black Templars). Pretty sure that's how it would go now. The alternative is just naming some random new Astarte from the newly founded chapter as its CM. Probably not how it would/should go.

The 2nd founding is not the norm... No one is entirely sure as to how it happens but there are a few theories one of them being the cadre theory where experienced marines (Possibly up to captain rank but more likely Sergeants) are sent to assist in the training and initial command corp of the new chapter as it begins to gain experience. I'd also imagine that some of the new chapter spend time in support roles with other chapters and possibly IG regiments in order to gain experience before they start on things of their own...

On-Topic: I could see Cato throwing a bit of a fit if he didn't get to be CM, he is often described as being a glory over duty kind of person whereas I imagine Agemman would simply accept it and continue to perform his duty.

 purplefood wrote:
The 2nd founding is not the norm... No one is entirely sure as to how it happens but there are a few theories one of them being the cadre theory where experienced marines (Possibly up to captain rank but more likely Sergeants) are sent to assist in the training and initial command corp of the new chapter as it begins to gain experience. I'd also imagine that some of the new chapter spend time in support roles with other chapters and possibly IG regiments in order to gain experience before they start on things of their own...

On-Topic: I could see Cato throwing a bit of a fit if he didn't get to be CM, he is often described as being a glory over duty kind of person whereas I imagine Agemman would simply accept it and continue to perform his duty.

The Cadre theory certainly makes sense, and is essentially what I was suggesting with the reference to the second founding. From the source chapter, a captain becomes the new CM, while a group of Sergeants perhaps become the new captains. Essentially, the upper leadership come from the source chapter, the rest are filled in by new recruits... some of which, those that show special talent, would perhaps become the new chapter's Sergeants.

As for remaining in a support type role - that also makes sense if the circumstances permit. Perhaps some battle experience in support of established chapters would be the best way to see which of the chapter's new Astarte will make the chapter's current Sergeants and future heroes.

 Traejun wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
The 2nd founding is not the norm... No one is entirely sure as to how it happens but there are a few theories one of them being the cadre theory where experienced marines (Possibly up to captain rank but more likely Sergeants) are sent to assist in the training and initial command corp of the new chapter as it begins to gain experience. I'd also imagine that some of the new chapter spend time in support roles with other chapters and possibly IG regiments in order to gain experience before they start on things of their own...

On-Topic: I could see Cato throwing a bit of a fit if he didn't get to be CM, he is often described as being a glory over duty kind of person whereas I imagine Agemman would simply accept it and continue to perform his duty.

The Cadre theory certainly makes sense, and is essentially what I was suggesting with the reference to the second founding. From the source chapter, a captain becomes the new CM, while a group of Sergeants perhaps become the new captains. Essentially, the upper leadership come from the source chapter, the rest are filled in by new recruits... some of which, those that show special talent, would perhaps become the new chapter's Sergeants.

As for remaining in a support type role - that also makes sense if the circumstances permit. Perhaps some battle experience in support of established chapters would be the best way to see which of the chapter's new Astarte will make the chapter's current Sergeants and future heroes.

Exactly but if the chapter supplying the command cadre sent their best then there would be a fair number of chapters lacking in their very best commanders. I have a feeling they send a mix between the most experienced, the best teachers and maybe a few of their good commanders. But I could see this as something a captain may volunteer for and then he could decide whether to remain as the chapter master, essentially getting a promotion, or returning to his previous chapter.

So it is definitely something I could see Cato doing...

 purplefood wrote:

 Traejun wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
The 2nd founding is not the norm... No one is entirely sure as to how it happens but there are a few theories one of them being the cadre theory where experienced marines (Possibly up to captain rank but more likely Sergeants) are sent to assist in the training and initial command corp of the new chapter as it begins to gain experience. I'd also imagine that some of the new chapter spend time in support roles with other chapters and possibly IG regiments in order to gain experience before they start on things of their own...

On-Topic: I could see Cato throwing a bit of a fit if he didn't get to be CM, he is often described as being a glory over duty kind of person whereas I imagine Agemman would simply accept it and continue to perform his duty.

The Cadre theory certainly makes sense, and is essentially what I was suggesting with the reference to the second founding. From the source chapter, a captain becomes the new CM, while a group of Sergeants perhaps become the new captains. Essentially, the upper leadership come from the source chapter, the rest are filled in by new recruits... some of which, those that show special talent, would perhaps become the new chapter's Sergeants.

As for remaining in a support type role - that also makes sense if the circumstances permit. Perhaps some battle experience in support of established chapters would be the best way to see which of the chapter's new Astarte will make the chapter's current Sergeants and future heroes.

Exactly but if the chapter supplying the command cadre sent their best then there would be a fair number of chapters lacking in their very best commanders. I have a feeling they send a mix between the most experienced, the best teachers and maybe a few of their good commanders. But I could see this as something a captain may volunteer for and then he could decide whether to remain as the chapter master, essentially getting a promotion, or returning to his previous chapter.

So it is definitely something I could see Cato doing...

Yeah, that's probably it. Wouldn't want to strip the source chapter of ALL their best and brightest.

And, again I agree, I could definitely see Cato heading off to a new chapter to become its CM. Especially so if Agemman was set to be the UM next CM - which Cato would anticipate if he wasn't named by Calgar ahead of time.

The two of them (1st and 2nd company Captains that is) are set up so there is likely to be conflict in the future.

It's GW getting ready for the inevitable Ultra vs Ultra battles that take place. Calgar dying or stepping down and the other two disagreeing and having conflict along with taking their own followers makes for a pretty cool hook.

 OminusMarine wrote:
Uriel Ventris would get my vote...
Man is a battle genius, and an all around beast. Just look at his deeds as a young Captain? Destroys Chaos, fights and destroys a Tyranid queen, battles a C'Tan (Nightbringer), the list goes on!
But I'd guess Agemman. Based on the fluff, though Sicarius is a likely candidate, he's to headstrong and vainglorious to run the chapter. He doesn't know how to say "no" when it comes to a fight.

He's also very young, doesn't have the experience, is too volatile and unpredictable, got sent on a Death Oath, loses crazy amounts of soldiers in every campaign, is sometimes reluctant to do what needs to be done and he shies away from responsibility when he thinks someone else would do better.

In fairness, he lost a lot of men defending a world from a Tyranid splinter fleet...
That is only his fault to a certain limit.

 purplefood wrote:
In fairness, he lost a lot of men defending a world from a Tyranid splinter fleet...
That is only his fault to a certain limit.

On the other hand he released an unbound shard of the nightbringer upon the galaxy powerful enough to shave a hundred thousand years off a sun's lifetime in one go (that's over thirteen times the power of the death star) because he decided to play chicken with the space grim reaper.

 Kain wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
In fairness, he lost a lot of men defending a world from a Tyranid splinter fleet...
That is only his fault to a certain limit.

On the other hand he released an unbound shard of the nightbringer upon the galaxy powerful enough to shave a hundred thousand years off a sun's lifetime in one go (that's over thirteen times the power of the death star) because he decided to play chicken with the space grim reaper.

True but everyone has a bad day

Purps, you know Cato is 2nd Company Captain right?

Yeah last time I checked I did know that...

 Alfndrate wrote:
Purps, you know Cato is 2nd Company Captain right?

Yes but everyone likes Titus better. Single handedly beating up both an Ork waaagh and a Chaos warband? Awesome.

 Kain wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Purps, you know Cato is 2nd Company Captain right?

Yes but everyone likes Titus better. Single handedly beating up both an Ork waaagh and a Chaos warband? Awesome.

Technically that was you and every other player of Space Marine

I'd love to see Cato Sicarius and Agemman end up with joint leadership - between them, they'd be intuitive, reliable, dependable, impulsive and conservative.

Also we could have books with serious friction between the pair

I think that it would be peacefully decided between the command structure, there would not be a mini civil war no matter how cool it'd be.

I could see Cato possibly raising a stink about it... guy has a bit of an ego...
That said so do most marines...