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Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

sebster wrote:


Well, duh. Of course it's against the law, but are you going to argue that it's meaningfully enforced?


Not Yet. If you read that post, and others, you would have noticed that the INS, currently responsible for this enforcement, is not doing their job. This law allows local and state police to do the job.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Does that mean that if the State of Arizona got sufficiently annoyed with Mexico they could go to war with them?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Kilkrazy wrote:Does that mean that if the State of Arizona got sufficiently annoyed with Mexico they could go to war with them?


I think only Congress (Federal) has the authority to declare war. It could sure put on one hell of a proxy war, especially with all the guns David Spade bought for them.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Ahtman wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Does that mean that if the State of Arizona got sufficiently annoyed with Mexico they could go to war with them?


I think only Congress (Federal) has the authority to declare war. It could sure put on one hell of a proxy war, especially with all the guns David Spade bought for them.


Don't call it a war, call it an extraterritorial criminal investigation and response.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

Wait, what does David Spade have to do with this?

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Orkeosaurus wrote:Wait, what does David Spade have to do with this?

What does David Spade NOT have to do with it?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Ahtman wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Does that mean that if the State of Arizona got sufficiently annoyed with Mexico they could go to war with them?


I think only Congress (Federal) has the authority to declare war. It could sure put on one hell of a proxy war, especially with all the guns David Spade bought for them.


Yes. As I understand it, Congress/the Federal Gov is in charge of immigration too. So just because Arizona thinks the INS isn't doing its job, doesn't mean the state gets the authority to do it by itself.

(If so, the law will quickly get struck down as unconstitutional.)

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

No, I'm waiting for Arizona to go to war with Texas, just like in the Old Days.

And given how some states have been acting, the idea they'll declare war on one another doesn't seem that far fetched. Hell, New York is trying to find ways to Tax other states...

Edit: Anything that involves crossing a state line is under the rule of Federal, not State law.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/03 22:02:24



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The state is enforcing the Federal law. The constitution gives states that power.

I mean, the Federal law is 21 to buy alcohol but the individual states have the power to enforce that law how they see fit. Some states, maybe most, require you be 21 to legally drink; some require that you only be 18 (with the caveat that you still be 21 to buy). A few states you can even be younger than 18 but you must be with parent/adult guardian and the server still can refuse to serve.

So just because the Feds have laid down certain laws doesn't mean the individual states can't enforce/reinforce them. AZ is just doing what the Feds have made laws over. The difference being AZ is enforcing them, the Feds aren't.


--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I don't see how that differs from declaring war.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see how that differs from declaring war.


One involves artillery, one handcuffs.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Realistically, they both involve both.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't mess with handcuffs. Hit them with a 155mm and there isn't anything left to handcuff. Well, maybe some viscera.

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Fateweaver wrote:I don't mess with handcuffs. Hit them with a 155mm and there isn't anything left to handcuff. Well, maybe some viscera.


155s are hard to carry by yourself, and you have to worry about the vehicle breaking down. Take a PAK 75 or a 25 pounder. They're much more practical.

Point of fact, the states are not empowered to enforce Federal law. This is why if you break Federal Law, you are put before a Federal Judge rather then the State court. This is ALSO why state police cannot enter Native Reservations without Native approval.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/05/03 23:03:37



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






That's why you use a Paladin.

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

I'll pass on the steel coffin. As Muldin once said 'A moving Foxhole attracts the eye."


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

BaronIveagh wrote:Point of fact, the states are not empowered to enforce Federal law. This is why if you break Federal Law, you are put before a Federal Judge rather then the State court. This is ALSO why state police cannot enter Native Reservations without Native approval.


However, SB 1070 reiterates the Fed law and makes it a state law as well. Well within the rights of the state to reinforce the fed law with laws of its own.
Arizona is not making new requirements for crossing the US border. It is reinforcing the current standard for already being here.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

... but that's double jeopardy, since if you beat the charge in state court they could charge you again in Federal.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

BaronIveagh wrote:... but that's double jeopardy, since if you beat the charge in state court they could charge you again in Federal.


Actually.... no. Federal Law takes precident. If a crime has local, state, and federal penalties, the Fedreal case takes precident. However, if you do beat it in fed court, nothing stops state or local from trial on related crimes.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

No, because if it's the same crime with the same facts, regardless of a change of venue, the Constitution forbids being tried a second time.

If I say the words Regnad Kcin and that's both a Federal and state crime, and I'm charged at Federal, I cannot be brought back and tried before a state court for the same thing.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Separate sovereigns are exempt from double jeopardy, though its fairly rare to see a case where two sovereigns have jurisdiction over the same crime.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

dogma wrote:Separate sovereigns are exempt from double jeopardy, though its fairly rare to see a case where two sovereigns have jurisdiction over the same crime.


No, because Federal law takes precedent, that would be the 'sovereign' in this case, since it overrides State. Benton v. Maryland.



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

BaronIveagh wrote:
No, because Federal law takes precedent, that would be the 'sovereign' in this case, since it overrides State. Benton v. Maryland.


No, that's wrong. The states are individual sovereigns that have given up certain powers to the federal government. The federal government is one sovereign, and each state is another. Legal primacy is one of powers given over to the federal government.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

A person kills a federal agent with a gun.
The Murder is a Federal crime as well as a state and local.
The Fed takes precident.
The State or locality may add additional charges of unlawful discharge of a firearm, or even unlawful posession of such without tripping the Double Jeopardy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/04 02:02:21


Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Yes, but the State and the Fed can't BOTH charge him with the same murder. They can only add additional related crimes.

And for amusement, where I live it's only a Federal crime, and possibly not even that, depending on the situation.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Theoretically, the state could also try the person for murder. The decision presented as a result of that trial would simply be irrelevant.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

That still doesn't sound right, because I can remember cases where mobsters beat the Federal charge and the state couldn't try them, though the name of the case atm escapes me...


I want to say it was a bribery case against a sheriff in Ohio...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/04 02:11:48



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

BaronIveagh wrote:Yes, but the State and the Fed can't BOTH charge him with the same murder. They can only add additional related crimes.


Normally what happens in cases when multiple sovereigns are an issue is that the crime will simply be referred to the federal authority. However, a state could try a person for murder, and deliver a sentence, but doing so would not obstruct the federal government from prosecuting said person for the same crime.

Look up United States v. Lanza.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote:That still doesn't sound right, because I can remember cases where mobsters beat the Federal charge and the state couldn't try them, though the name of the case atm escapes me...


I want to say it was a bribery case against a sheriff in Ohio...


Yeah, a federal acquittal supersedes any state judgment. The state could still hold a trial, it would just be a waste of time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/04 02:16:42


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Except the 18th amendment was repealed, which this case primarily dealt with.

And dogma, this case was overturned by Benton v. Maryland, as the court here rules that the 5th Amendment only applies to Federal actions.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

So wait, a person found not guilty of a particular crime by a state court can still be found guilty by a federal court? (But not the other way around?)

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
 
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