Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just don't see the great usability of Gorgons over Chimeras, the Gorgon holds many more men and is open-topped, that makes it easier to destroy and puts more men at risk than a Chimera. Now, the Salamander is more understandable, it is oppen-topped, however only holds 5 men, so the risks are lighter than that of a Gorgon or even a Chimera.

Because when you do get a break in the line you want to put as many troops in as possible. The Gorgon has much, much better survivability than a chimera too.

These vehicles serve entirely different purposes. The gorgon is designed to transport a large platoon or a small company of infantry directly onto an enemy position for a large scale direct assault. A Chimera is an IFV designed to transport and integral fire support for a single squad of infantry as part of a general battle line for fast engagements and to keep up with armor. They serve entirely different roles.

As for safety, the Gorgon is significantly harder to destroy or disable than a Chimera.

Vaktathi wrote:These vehicles serve entirely different purposes. The gorgon is designed to transport a large platoon or a small company of infantry directly onto an enemy position for a large scale direct assault. A Chimera is an IFV designed to transport and integral fire support for a single squad of infantry as part of a general battle line for fast engagements and to keep up with armor. They serve entirely different roles.

As for safety, the Gorgon is significantly harder to destroy or disable than a Chimera.

From a fluff perspective, if a Gorgon is trying to push through an enemy line, whats to stop them from tossing an explosive through the exposed top area?

Cat-uh-cans

Catachans are just badass. They're modeled after the US forces in Vietnam, and notably Rambo. But as opposed to hunting VC and stopping the spread of communism is southeast asia, they just run around killing gak for the emperor

They just seem too cool for school.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:These vehicles serve entirely different purposes. The gorgon is designed to transport a large platoon or a small company of infantry directly onto an enemy position for a large scale direct assault. A Chimera is an IFV designed to transport and integral fire support for a single squad of infantry as part of a general battle line for fast engagements and to keep up with armor. They serve entirely different roles.

As for safety, the Gorgon is significantly harder to destroy or disable than a Chimera.

From a fluff perspective, if a Gorgon is trying to push through an enemy line, whats to stop them from tossing an explosive through the exposed top area?

Basically, the theory is that'll kill a half dozen guys and meh. Plenty more kriegers in there. A gorgon that takes a terrible mauling and loses half it's crew will still be able to deploy twice as many guardsmen as a chimera. Knowing the Krieg though one guy would just "throw" himself on the grenade to save his comrades.

Multiple grenades and GL's ought to sort out those Kriegers. I'm sure Gorgons are also a lot slower than Chimmy's and they don't really provide as much fire support for the squad once they're deployed. Also, imagine an Eldar Falcon hovering over it shredding the Kriegers to kingdom come with shuriken fire and the like. In fact any skimmer using army could easily slaughter the embarked Kriegers and it's considerably larger and open topped, making it very vulnerable to artillery.

Krieg for me, They punished their planet for daring to rebel against the emporah with nukes, turning it into a permanent nuclear winter planet. They don't fear death or dying, They specialise in sieges and just remaining in a stalemate. They tunnel underground and use ye olde equipment to get the job done...

To answer the Gorgon & Grenades question, all they have to do is rig up something like this;



...and grenades are thus rendered mostly impotent. To be honest, to get close enough to throw a grenade into them you'd have brave a lot of cross fire from the Gorgons Heavy Stubbers and possibly also heavy bolter sponsons. Good luck trying to get close enough to lob a grenade in in the face of all that firepower criss-crossing your path. It wouldn't be just one Gorgon advancing, but multiple.

As for skimmers? Hydras & AA platforms. Problem solved. Plus Lightnings & Thunderbolts. Artillery? As Krieg pack more artillery for war than anyone else, counter-artillery strikes could even that out. Plus they could use smoke screens to shield the advancing Gorgons until they burst through it to pour their troops into the enemy position.

Yeah, but Eldar and Tau realistically can easily outstrip any Imperium fighter, and destroy any Krieg counter arty. As for Hydra's, considering high tech missiles are required to knock out jets nowadays, how does flak fire even touch the ridiculously fast and well protected Eldar and Tau planes. And I'm sure the technologically advanced enemies of the Imperium can easily deal with smoke screens through the complex headsets (those robot style eyes on the FW's would probably be capable of this).

Yes, there's a counter for everything but those things would also kill a chimera too. A chimera is not actually that well armoured after all except in the front.

The targeting cogitators of Hydra's are able to negate the twin advantages of speed & manouverability inherent to flyers. Their long-barrelled autocannons will hammer aircraft down from a very long range, as well as being handy to use against infantry & light vehicles. With regards to recent/modern SP-AAA 'cannon' platforms like the Hydra;





I wouldn't say Eldar & Tau can outstrip Imperial fighters - the Lightning isn't named that for nothing.

As for seeing through smoke screens? The vast majority of fights the Imperium gets embroiled in are with renegades, traitors and Orks. Whilst traitor Astartes will have visual systems built into their helms, I don't believe they'd be able to see through the thick bank of smoke produced from heavy calibre artillery smoke shells. Plus a lot of those systems tend to work off of heat and, apart from their engines, Gorgons wouldn't give off much heat. Point is, the basic troops of the Imperiums most common enemies would not be able to flick on some super-technical visual aid to see through a smoke screen.

Eldar fighters are only gonna get taken down by Hydras if they chose to, as there's no way in a million years that a flak gun will ever hit one, and even if it did, holofields etc would be able to soak up they impact. Chimeras may not be as well armoured but they are much more tactically versatile, probably faster and only carry a squad as oppose to a whole platoon. If it gets destroyed, you only lose 10 men instead of thirty. When fighting Orks, they may not be able to see through the smoke but do you really want to be driving toward an army which will likely outnumber you and best you up close. While traitor and renegade SM would be able to see fine, renegade guards/ people tend to get destroyed by the Imperium with ease, so it doesn't matter if you send your platoons at them in Gorgons or Chimmy's. Tau probably have all sorts of targeting shizzle so smoke makes no difference and Eldar have some of the most advanced weaponry ever and can probably see due to their helmets etc. Chimmy's can deploy smoke too, so it's not like Gorgon smoke is oh-so opaque.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:
I wouldn't say Eldar & Tau can outstrip Imperial fighters - the Lightning isn't named that for nothing.

Imperial Armour 2, Tau fighters could easily outmaneuver Imperial vehicles, Tau won the war due to the advantage they had in the skies, even while outnumbered.

Let's put it this way. You're about to assault a breach in the defences of a city. The breach will fit either 5 Chimeras or 3 Gorgons. The distance to the target is 300 yards and covered by Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and Missile Launchers. The breach itself is lined with renegade Guardsmen of Khorne, ready to throw themselves onto any Loyalists who approach.

Which do you choose?

The Chimera
Carries 12 Guardsmen, protected by rugged armour that can shake off quite a bit damage. It carries a heavy weapon on it's turret and another on the hull. For the troops to disembark they would have to exit through the rear of the vehicle. The Chimera could approach the breach, turn its hull round and allow the Guardsmen to dismount, or use it's hull as cover whilst they dismount which delays their assault and gives the enemy the chance to recover and counter-attack. It will cover the ground quickly, however.

The Gorgon
Carries 50 Krieg soldiers, has extremely tough armour that can withstand colossal amounts of damage. It carries two heavy stubbers and either mortars or heavy bolter sponsons. Troops embark and disembark from the forward ramp. Whilst not as fast as the Chimera it stands a better chance of approaching the breach and surviving. Also, once in the breach, the ramps can be dropped and troops can assault straight into the enemy positions.
Engineers could, potentially, also rig shaped charges to outside of the ramps that may be detonated before the ramp is dropped, delivering an explosive blast that could clear the way for assault troops, as well as demoralising and injuring the enemy as well as throwing them into confusion.

5 Chimera: maximum of 60 Guardsmen being delivered into the breach.
3 Gorgons: 150 Guardsmen delivered into the breach.

Most DKoK regiments are Siege regiments. They use their expertise, their trenches, artillery and vehicles to pound cities & strongholds into submission before assaulting them. Those Gorgons can be used in the same way to create a 'breach' in the enemy lines on the battlefield and deliver large numbers of DKoK into the enemy position. Yes there are counters to them but there are counters to everything! To deride something just because something can take it out as well as taking out half a dozen things is pointless. A Tau/Eldar aircraft could well and truly take out a Gorgon. And Chimeras. And LRBTs. And Hellhounds. And Rhino's. And Predators. Artillery can do the same.

With regards to smoke screens, I did not say the Gorgons created them, but artillery. An artillery shell, being of a far larger calibre than the smaller smoke launchers on Chimeras, will create a thicker and larger smoke screen. Put 300 Earthshakers pounding smoke across the lines and that will create a smoke screen so thick that I doubt the various visual aids will have difficulty penetrating it if at all, and even then what do they see approaching? Big, vague blocks rolling towards them.

One thing I will say for Gorgons over Chimeras. If the Chimera gets totalled then anyone inside it will be lucky to emerge. If a Gorgon gets hammered then any surviving Guardsmen can climb over the sides. Still retain some troops even if it gets hammered. It's like the landing craft used during WW2. Might get hammered and busted but those inside can escape it.

As for Hydra's vs. aircraft? Don't ask me. It's sci-fi, GWs universe. If they say that the IG use a SP AAA armed with 4 cannons and that it's effective, then it's a SP AAA armed with 4 cannons that is effective. Give the Guard -some- credit - they deserve the upper hand at some point against the enemy forces.

Wouldn't most IG use Crassus Assault Carriers to fill the role of Gorgons in the Krieg? It's a closer analogue than a Chimera.

That's a fair point but the Gorgon has advantages over the Crassus. The Crassus can fit 30 troops and has weaker side armour. Additional armour can be placed onto the flanks but it loses half of its firepower doing so. It's also weaker than the Gorgon (2 structure points vs 3). The front ramp/prow of the Gorgon is so tough that in game terms any glancing or penetrating hits on the front armour are ignored on a 4+. THe prow also counts as the Rough Terrarin modification.
However that comes at a price - the Crassus is the faster vehicle. IA5 notes in the background for the Gorgon that it's used for short distance assaults because of its low speed.

Rather importantly, the Gorgon, in terms of rules, is not subjected to the open top rules for blast template weapons, which makes sense due to the angled plate that rises over the troop compartment. It is also amphibious, whereas the Crassus is not mentioned as being so.

Different vehicles for different purposes and tactics. I'd much rather perform an assault using Gorgons because of the capacity and their toughness, but if you need fast transports to cover ground quickly and make use of small pieces of terrain I'd prefer the Chimera. The Crassus fits in between and if I were personally not a Krieg chap, I'd prefer it over the Gorgon as the latter fits Krieg perfectly but other regiments not so well.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:These vehicles serve entirely different purposes. The gorgon is designed to transport a large platoon or a small company of infantry directly onto an enemy position for a large scale direct assault. A Chimera is an IFV designed to transport and integral fire support for a single squad of infantry as part of a general battle line for fast engagements and to keep up with armor. They serve entirely different roles.

As for safety, the Gorgon is significantly harder to destroy or disable than a Chimera.

From a fluff perspective, if a Gorgon is trying to push through an enemy line, whats to stop them from tossing an explosive through the exposed top area?

The fact that it's got multiple defensive machine guns generally tends to keep heads down.

It's a bit silly yeah, but in all honesty, much less so than most of the stuff in 40k (such as genetically engineered super soldiers with starships, laser cannon, and rocket rifles choosing hand to hand combat as their primary method of attack).

Banzaimash wrote:Eldar fighters are only gonna get taken down by Hydras if they chose to, as there's no way in a million years that a flak gun will ever hit one, and even if it did, holofields etc would be able to soak up they impact. Chimeras may not be as well armoured but they are much more tactically versatile, probably faster and only carry a squad as oppose to a whole platoon. If it gets destroyed, you only lose 10 men instead of thirty. When fighting Orks, they may not be able to see through the smoke but do you really want to be driving toward an army which will likely outnumber you and best you up close. While traitor and renegade SM would be able to see fine, renegade guards/ people tend to get destroyed by the Imperium with ease, so it doesn't matter if you send your platoons at them in Gorgons or Chimmy's. Tau probably have all sorts of targeting shizzle so smoke makes no difference and Eldar have some of the most advanced weaponry ever and can probably see due to their helmets etc. Chimmy's can deploy smoke too, so it's not like Gorgon smoke is oh-so opaque.

Silly rabbit you're not thinking the Imperial way. You seem to think human life is important or something. Guardsmen are unlimited, what's not is tanks. The survival of the Gorgon is more important than the soldiers inside it. In a mad dash across no man's land against a well fortified enemy a chimera has no chance. A gorgon is designed to withstand anti-tank weapons.

Wasn't there rumouts of closing the top of the Gorgon and strapping a few turrets on the new plating?

Bobthehero wrote:Wasn't there rumouts of closing the top of the Gorgon and strapping a few turrets on the new plating?

But then you wouldn't have to buy the place-holder models to go inside it

The Steel Legion is renowned for using large numbers of Basilisks. As I've said earlier, if the Steel Legion had its own Forge World line then it would also have loads of cool stuff like Gorgons. As for once the Kreigers are within the city, they wouldn't be nearly as proficient as the Legion, as although they are good at hand to hand fighting and trench fighting, they wouldn't know all the tricks of the trade as far as urban fighting goes, at least not to the extent of the Steel Legion. The Chimera is much more versatile than the Gorgon, and so while the siege specialties of Krieg would excel in a siege situation, they wouldn't be nearly as Steel Legion would be in many other cases. The Steel Legion out manoeuvres the Krieg with adaptable and durable vehicles, but can adjust their tactics to include less or more such vehicles when needed. The Krieg starts with less and will find it difficult to build up more compared to the Steel Legion.

I don't ever recall hearing about the Steel Legion having "large numbers of Basilisks".

They have large numbers of Chimera hulled vehicles, but that means everything from Griffon mortar carriers to Basilisks.

Likewise, I've heard nothing to suggest that they are somehow incredibly knowledgeable in the tricks of urban warfare. The Hive Militias were, but they weren't Steel Legion.

I should also add that yet again a thread like this is devolving into "who's better than who" based upon nothing but baseless speculation.

(P.S. Cadia>all.)

Kanluwen wrote:
(P.S. Cadia>all.)

QFT

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I say Steel Legion, if you disagree take it up with Commisar Yarrick.

I used to think Steel Legion were hardcore but then The Krieg came along. They make the Steel Legion look like panseys. Actually, they make everyone look like panseys.

Kanluwen wrote:I don't ever recall hearing about the Steel Legion having "large numbers of Basilisks".

They have large numbers of Chimera hulled vehicles, but that means everything from Griffon mortar carriers to Basilisks.

Likewise, I've heard nothing to suggest that they are somehow incredibly knowledgeable in the tricks of urban warfare. The Hive Militias were, but they weren't Steel Legion.

I should also add that yet again a thread like this is devolving into "who's better than who" based upon nothing but baseless speculation.

(P.S. Cadia>all.)

It's not baseless speculation, the info is sourced from Codex Armageddon (in the Codex, it doesn't specify Hive Militia, but merely defenders) and Lexicanum (admittedly it mentions they mainly use Basilisks). Steel Legion are recruited from the Hive inhabitants, among which there will be many experienced Hive Gangers, not to mention that everyone else would have lived in Hive and would be familiar with the terrain. Combine this with the fact that they have fought battles against Orks there and the spores would have no doubt taken root in the bowels of the Hives. As for what this thread is about, it is kind of about who is better than who, it even says it in the title, which essentially reads,"Who is the best IG". You can't really ask people who is the most X without expecting them to say what they believe and then trying to justify it.

Banzaimash wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I don't ever recall hearing about the Steel Legion having "large numbers of Basilisks".

They have large numbers of Chimera hulled vehicles, but that means everything from Griffon mortar carriers to Basilisks.

Likewise, I've heard nothing to suggest that they are somehow incredibly knowledgeable in the tricks of urban warfare. The Hive Militias were, but they weren't Steel Legion.

I should also add that yet again a thread like this is devolving into "who's better than who" based upon nothing but baseless speculation.

(P.S. Cadia>all.)

It's not baseless speculation, the info is sourced from Codex Armageddon (in the Codex, it doesn't specify Hive Militia, but merely defenders) and Lexicanum (admittedly it mentions they mainly use Basilisks).

Lexicanum is not entirely accurate. It's the "most accurate" of the websites, but nowhere near 100%.
And the "Hive Militia" were the majority of defenders during Armageddon.

Steel Legion are recruited from the Hive inhabitants, among which there will be many experienced Hive Gangers, not to mention that everyone else would have lived in Hive and would be familiar with the terrain.

So you live in your home city. You know every single trick to it? Enough to reasonably defend it if pressed into service?

Of course not. There's a reason that the Steel Legion operated with "guides" from the Gangers.

Combine this with the fact that they have fought battles against Orks there and the spores would have no doubt taken root in the bowels of the Hives.

They have not fought "battles against Orks there" during their time as gangers. Orks are (relatively) new to Armageddon--and each time they've invaded the planet, they've done it in a different way.

As for what this thread is about, it is kind of about who is better than who, it even says it in the title, which essentially reads,"Who is the best IG". You can't really ask people who is the most X without expecting them to say what they believe and then trying to justify it.

Except what they're saying is not based upon fluff. This thread is a bloated abomination of "I like X because they look cool!", and has been for awhile.
It's also not based upon accurate information for the most part.

The Steel Legion fought in and around the Hives during the 2nd and 3rd Armageddon Wars. Considering that the rest of Armageddon is essentially valueless, it is most probable that a lot of Steel Legion training takes place with the Hives in context. Regardless of whether they know their own Hives or not, they posses the skills that cause troops to excel at urban warfare and are familiar with urban terrain in general. Relatively, the DKoK would not be as best suited toward urban warfare, just as Steel Legion wouldn't best the DKoK at trench warfare. However, the Steel Legion is specialised at somethings (fighting Orks, fighting urban conflicts and using largely mechanised forces) but they can and often will adapt better as their method of fighting isn't as specific as the DKoK, which is siege and trench warfare almost to the exclusion of all else.

Considering that the majority of the Steel Legion's fighting between the 2nd and 3rd Armageddon Wars was y'know, fighting in the valueless wastelands, your assumption is incorrect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: assuming that fighting in Hive Cities is just like "urban fighting" is silly.

Hive Cities are HUGE. They're environments unto themselves.

Yes, but they're (Hive Cities) fundamentally still urban environments. Because the battles for Hive Death Mire, Volcanus, Acheron, Tartarus, Helsreach, Infernus and Hades, the only named battles I can think of that happened on Armageddon, didn't happen in Hives? They did, with the only battles outside the hives being orchestrated by different regiments to a large extent (the Savlar Chem Dogs and the Cadian Shock Troops to name a few). This fighting was even then an attempt to destroy Ork Roks and so it woul have had a lot of fighting withing the close quarters confines of the fortresses. Most of the fighting wouldn't really go on in the wastelands, and it was only really the Space Marines who actively hunted the Orks here. It says that,"Where the Orks were outnumbered they fought a guerilla war, striking at their foes and withdrawing into the harsh wastelands before retribution could arrive.". Here it's implied that the wastelands didn't exactly have guardsmen all over it, as the Orks found they could be safe there. Essentially, to say that my "assumption" as to whether the Steel Legion fought in the Hives more than the wastelands was incorrect is really without a cornerstone, as to say the least they fought in them substantially enough to become largely proficient at it.