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Made in us
Three Color Minimum





Tangentville, New Jersey

yukishiro1 wrote:

It's all a bit incoherent. The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.

Honestly, when the Primaris were first introduced, I was really hoping for an Imperium civil war along those lines. Almost like Horus Heresy 2; Primaris Boogaloo. That would also up the stakes as a divided Imperium is a more vulnerable Imperium.

Sigh, what could have been...


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Would have even provided some lore rationale for why most games of 40k are Imperium vs Imperium. It was such an obvious direction to go, but I guess the suits decided that it wasn't as safe as going Marvel instead.
   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

 His Master's Voice wrote:
 Las wrote:

40K has never had a truly "good" hero on geopolitical level of the Imperium who is positioned as being "right". It does now, and it reduces the level of grimdark.


Except Logan Grimnar. Or Creed. Or Macharius.

'Good' and 'right' are necessary elements of any dystopian setting. Black on black does not make a picture..


None of these characters effectively ran the Imperium though, which is a very important distinction. Anything they wanted to achieve was on the other side of the crushing vastness of the uncaring, hostile galaxy. They were comparatively minuscule actors in the grand stage of the 40k galaxy. Even if they led massive armies of millions, even those were incapable of steering the Imperium in any true direction. Those limitations of scale, indeed made their relative "goodness" stand out in an appropriate way that added depth to the overall tone and feel of 40k.

Roboute, by contrast, is figuratively cleaning house and making gak happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 18:19:21


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






yukishiro1 wrote:
The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.


Since when is doing the right thing more grimdark than a rotten compromise?

 Las wrote:

Roboute, by contrast, is figuratively cleaning house and making gak happen.


Which, as far as I can tell, led us to... the exact same Imperium we had before.

Again, hope, good intentions and a drive towards betterment are important elements of any dystopia. They only run counter to the themes of the setting if they're effective, which Guiliman's actions don't seem to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 18:23:35


 
   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

 His Master's Voice wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.


Since when is doing the right thing more grimdark than a rotten compromise?


Abandoning trillions to suffer under the Imperium wouldn't have been "right." It might have been necessary to do any good at all, but it wouldn't have been noble. THAT would've been the true "rotten compromise." Therein lies the grimdark.

In the current story, he got his cake and is eating it too.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 18:22:38


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

KidCthulhu wrote:I think the move from customizable "my guys" character approach to "buy this awesome fething centerpiece model!" has a lot to do with the tone shift, perceived or otherwise.

EDIT: just cleaning up syntax.


Very much so!
No one is forcing anyone to buy/use them. Vahl is a horrible model along with the rest of the suits, so not gonna buy them no matter how OP they are.
As for centerpiece models not gonna use them in any game smaller than 3k. But I have no problem with others wanting to use them.
they're excellent models but on the "normal" tabletop, hell no.

Who plays the triumph and Celestine in a 2k game? Are the gonna add Vahl now as well? Seems weird to me...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 19:02:49


 
   
Made in fi
Calculating Commissar







 KidCthulhu wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:

It's all a bit incoherent. The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.

Honestly, when the Primaris were first introduced, I was really hoping for an Imperium civil war along those lines. Almost like Horus Heresy 2; Primaris Boogaloo. That would also up the stakes as a divided Imperium is a more vulnerable Imperium.

Sigh, what could have been...

I've said it before, but I think fundamentally, GW's problem re: 40k is one of cowardice. They lack the conviction to properly follow through on any of their ideas because they're terrified of losing what they have. The madcap creativity of Age of Sigmar, as much as I dislike many of the results, was only possible because they had nothing to lose, and after destroying the old game, had no sacred cows left to preserve. They were free to create armies like Idoneth and Kharadron without being afraid of how the current fanbases would like them because the Dark Elves and Dwarves sales were already circling the drain.

40k today is too old to rock and roll, but too young to die. It's too old and set in its ways to foster creativity from the studio, but much too commercially successful to suffer sales-wise. I expect the current state of affairs will continue for at least the next 5ish years or so. Maybe 12th edition will be the big watershed moment?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 20:17:07


Dig me a grave where I can nurture a hatred most sublime
For the fools who made this mess and think it not a crime 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference in the grand scale? Does he have an endgame beyond beating back the latest Chaos or alien incursion? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still in one place long enough to enact long term reform. We see in the novels of his return examples of him shelving/delaying long term goals like revising/rationalizing the calendar system in favor of the short term goal of the next campaign.

Which is why a Sister High Lord running around on a battlefield may actually be a bad thing for Guilliman's goals because it's one less politically active support in a position to keep the inertial forces of the other Imperial institutions at bay. Sure she may not be a malleable pawn in the hands of the Ecclesiarch but I don't see her battlefield antics as really threatening the old status quo either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 20:50:25


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 KidCthulhu wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:

It's all a bit incoherent. The consistent, grimdark thing would have been to have Guilliman return only to finally realize that his dad was never worth following in the first place and is now dead anyway, and therefore to have him come out of his "audience" with the pathetic, dead husk of "the Emperor"...and just leave, letting the Imperium burn itself down while he creates his own, better institution in Ultramar.

Honestly, when the Primaris were first introduced, I was really hoping for an Imperium civil war along those lines. Almost like Horus Heresy 2; Primaris Boogaloo. That would also up the stakes as a divided Imperium is a more vulnerable Imperium.

Sigh, what could have been...

I've said it before, but I think fundamentally, GW's problem re: 40k is one of cowardice. They lack the conviction to properly follow through on any of their ideas because they're terrified of losing what they have. The madcap creativity of Age of Sigmar, as much as I dislike many of the results, was only possible because they had nothing to lose, and after destroying the old game, had no sacred cows left to preserve. They were free to create armies like Idoneth and Kharadron without being afraid of how the current fanbases would like them because the Dark Elves and Dwarves sales were already circling the drain.

40k today is too old to rock and roll, but too young to die. It's too old and set in its ways to foster creativity from the studio, but much too commercially successful to suffer sales-wise. I expect the current state of affairs will continue for at least the next 5ish years or so. Maybe 12th edition will be the big watershed moment?


GW destroyed 2 homeworlds of first founding chapters recently.
It is slow, but they are moving things.
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 Las wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Rulebooks and codexes are far to small to really give more than a Lacroix level taste of the themes and drives of a faction. BL is where the main themes are really shown.


I disagree. Honestly, I think the 2nd-4th edition rulebooks have more atmosphere dripping off a single lore page than most BL books manage to achieve. They are, after all, what defined the setting. BL is supplemental and always has been.

3rd was pretty barebones honestly, and 9th is emulating that level of detail. I agree 2nd was good, but I have no opinion on 4th as I never played it.

But no, codexes can't go in depth as much as even a single novel can. Much less a series of novels.
   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Las wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Rulebooks and codexes are far to small to really give more than a Lacroix level taste of the themes and drives of a faction. BL is where the main themes are really shown.


I disagree. Honestly, I think the 2nd-4th edition rulebooks have more atmosphere dripping off a single lore page than most BL books manage to achieve. They are, after all, what defined the setting. BL is supplemental and always has been.

3rd was pretty barebones honestly, and 9th is emulating that level of detail. I agree 2nd was good, but I have no opinion on 4th as I never played it.

But no, codexes can't go in depth as much as even a single novel can. Much less a series of novels.


I suppose you're right in that the quality of the rulebooks/codices is subjective, but I think what's more important is that they are the primary storytelling medium of the 40k setting. As such they are miles ahead of BL when analyzing the story, tone, and themes of 40k.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/11 22:37:05


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Iracundus wrote:
A dark interpretation of Guilliman's return is that even his return is not sufficient to change things on the grand scale. Guilliman is running around the galaxy putting out fires, but is he really making any difference in the grand scale? Does he have an endgame beyond beating back the latest Chaos or alien incursion? Right now he is like a torch, shedding light wherever he goes, but the shadows of ignorance return whenever he leaves. Institutional inertia is a powerful thing and I could see it returning things to the old status quo as he never seems to stay still in one place long enough to enact long term reform. We see in the novels of his return examples of him shelving/delaying long term goals like revising/rationalizing the calendar system in favor of the short term goal of the next campaign.

Which is why a Sister High Lord running around on a battlefield may actually be a bad thing for Guilliman's goals because it's one less politically active support in a position to keep the inertial forces of the other Imperial institutions at bay. Sure she may not be a malleable pawn in the hands of the Ecclesiarch but I don't see her battlefield antics as really threatening the old status quo either.


This is what I am talking about re: Guilliman having changed the Imperium story from being about a fundamentally terrible organization dying a slow and ultimately deserved death to instead a story about Making the Imperium Great Again. Whether MIGA actually succeeds isn't the issue, it's that it's moved the story in a fundamentally different direction because for MIGA to make any sense, the Imperium has to have been great originally...and that's a big change that fundamentally reorients who the good and bad guys are. Now the Imperium isn't so much irredeemably bad as just a victim of bad stewardship; this is a more typical good guys vs bad guys story.

One of the interesting things about old 40k is that it wasn't a good guys vs bad guys story. Guilliman's appointment as the de facto leader of the Imperium makes the 40k story a much more standard one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:


GW destroyed 2 homeworlds of first founding chapters recently.
It is slow, but they are moving things.


I think this actually proves his point re: not being willing to really shake things up. Messing up a few homeworlds doesn't actually do anything for the bigger narrative. Destroying two founding chapters? Now that would have been a big deal - but it will also never happen, because of commercial imperatives - squatting the squats made people mad, but it'd be nothing compared to the fury if they squatted the Blood Angels. But messing up their homeworld a bit? Sure, that's totally consequence free, it literally has no impact on anything at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/11 23:30:19


 
   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






Also note they chose two home worlds that amounted to hellholes with a monastery anyway.

I wouldn't consider that nearly as bold as had they nuked Marcagge.

Oh noes they totally ruined the frozen oceanic deathworld and the sun scorched radioactive desert worlds? Say it ain't so! lol

   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 00:30:47


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Do you really want GW to move forward the storyline and cause sensible and perpetual destruction? Do you really want that in your warhammer? Because thats how you get AoS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 00:29:52


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Oberleutnant




Hogtown

 Galas wrote:
Do you really want GW to move forward the storyline and cause sensible and perpetual destruction? Do you really want that in your warhammer? Because thats how you get AoS.


Agree 100%. The IP has had steady growth for longer than I have been alive, and I am about to turn thirty.

The sandbox nature of the setting is no small part of why.

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Imperium was “great”, as in powerful, which is different from saying it was good. Guilliman is also under no illusions about being loved by the Emperor as the novels clearly show that he realized from his audience that he had never been anything more than a tool. He also starts to have the tiniest sliver of doubt about the Emperor’s non-divinity after seeing an apparent example of the Emperor’s power being channeled through a young psyker girl to banish daemons.

However he still fights on because of his beliefs that the Imperium could be made better, and that the alternative for humanity of a shattered Inperium being swamped by threats would be worse. I don’t see his push for a saner Inperium as suddenly making the Imperium morally good anymore than the realm of Ultramar is morally good. A secular imperialistic dictatorship that tramples its people in the name of an abstract ideal of humanity vs a religious imperialistic dictatorship that tramples its people and demands worship for its carrion god. Both can be viewed as morally bad, just in different ways. One could also disagree with Guilliman’s decision as he is ultimately prolonging the Imperium, and that maybe it would actually have been better for him to have let it die off and instead attempted any revival of humanity starting from Ultramar. Guilliman may be making the classic mistake of trying to defend everything.

Also the storyline has moved forward in 40k pretty much since the beginning with about a 1:1 year rate correspondence in the 1990’s. That is what allowed for character stories and deaths like Tycho to occur. The timeline freeze in the final days of 999.M40 in the early 2000’s was actually a change from what happened before, and grew increasingly problematic as not every faction has the timeline space for retroactive insertion of material into the past. Story progression does not necessarily translate to setting destruction.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 00:49:55


 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 Galas wrote:
Do you really want GW to move forward the storyline and cause sensible and perpetual destruction? Do you really want that in your warhammer? Because thats how you get AoS.

Compared to the constant cramming of every major ebent into M40.999? Yes.

And you get AoS when the community stops buying the game and they have to do something drastic to get a playerbase back.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 ClockworkZion wrote:
Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.

Except it doesn't matter if their homeworld is gone. What are they going to be, _more_ mad at Magnus?

The 'only can recruit from Fenris' thing was a weird late addition/retcon and rendered entirely moot by Primaris. So what if a tribal population on a hellworld is gone? What real impact does that have?
They'll go out and fight stuff, just like they always have before. Whatever.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

Voss wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.

Except it doesn't matter if their homeworld is gone. What are they going to be, _more_ mad at Magnus?

The 'only can recruit from Fenris' thing was a weird late addition/retcon and rendered entirely moot by Primaris. So what if a tribal population on a hellworld is gone? What real impact does that have?
They'll go out and fight stuff, just like they always have before. Whatever.

So this logic means breaking Cadia was pointless and any win Chaos has is pointless unless it kills down a faction to the man.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Do you really want GW to move forward the storyline and cause sensible and perpetual destruction? Do you really want that in your warhammer? Because thats how you get AoS.

Compared to the constant cramming of every major ebent into M40.999? Yes.

And you get AoS when the community stops buying the game and they have to do something drastic to get a playerbase back.

Ding ding ding we have a winner

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 ClockworkZion wrote:
Voss wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Hitting the Space Wolves home world is a big deal. That's a big name first founding chapter that has it's own supplement, not a chapter like the Mantis Warriors or the Genesis Chapter.

Except it doesn't matter if their homeworld is gone. What are they going to be, _more_ mad at Magnus?

The 'only can recruit from Fenris' thing was a weird late addition/retcon and rendered entirely moot by Primaris. So what if a tribal population on a hellworld is gone? What real impact does that have?
They'll go out and fight stuff, just like they always have before. Whatever.

So this logic means breaking Cadia was pointless and any win Chaos has is pointless unless it kills down a faction to the man.

...yes. Yes it does.

There is no 'win state' for 40k. The war continues, no matter what, otherwise there isn't a setting, story OR game.

40k numbers are made of pure nonsense. There are still however many Cadians there need to be (and even if there aren't there are still X billion guardsmen that are exactly the same as Cadians).
Losing half the galaxy has not mattered, let alone the Space Woofs homeworld.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I really don't think Guilliman coming back to help the Imperium defeats the purpose of a grimdark setting. Guilliman certainly isn't happy to be back.

"Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they've made of our dream. This bloated, rotting carcass of an empire is driven not by reason and hope but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fires of Horus' ambition than live to see this."

Guilliman's return is counterbalanced by the galaxy literally being cut in half by a warp storm. Primaris, although stronger, aren't wiping out xenos or changing the setting in any notable way. The biggest thing they did was to prevent certain chapters from being wiped out; Lamenters, Blood Angels, Scythes of the Emperor, etc.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

As fun as this is discussion is, how about we keep this thread concentrated on Adepta Sororitas Codex Rumors like it says in the title?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, nothing significant has really happened in 40k since the end of 7th/start of 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 GaroRobe wrote:
I really don't think Guilliman coming back to help the Imperium defeats the purpose of a grimdark setting. Guilliman certainly isn't happy to be back.

"Why do I still live? What more do you want from me? I gave everything I had to you, to them. Look what they've made of our dream. This bloated, rotting carcass of an empire is driven not by reason and hope but by fear, hate and ignorance. Better that we had all burned in the fires of Horus' ambition than live to see this."

Guilliman's return is counterbalanced by the galaxy literally being cut in half by a warp storm. Primaris, although stronger, aren't wiping out xenos or changing the setting in any notable way. The biggest thing they did was to prevent certain chapters from being wiped out; Lamenters, Blood Angels, Scythes of the Emperor, etc.


Again, this is exactly what I'm highlighting: they've retconned the Imperium's past into something glorious and heroic that needs to be restored. The Imperium has always been a bloated, rotting carcass of oppression - at least until they retconned that by bringing Guilliman back and had him proclaim that the bad old days were actually the good old days and the problem is just the corrupt deep state.

I mean, since when was the Imperium driven by reason? The Emperor was a ruthless despot who showed terrible judgment both in matters of administration and of character, flanked by a bunch of violent man-children whose only greater talent than killing was getting into pointless fights with one another, who wiped out multiple other human civilizations that were more fair, more equal, and less xenophobic. The Imperium was founded on fear, hate and ignorance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/12 02:20:39


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, Guilliman is probably just nostalgic. The Imperium wasn't great at the start, but it's so much worse now. The Emperor isn't around to guide them and now he's being worshipped like a god. The Emp also can't even pretend to be human or at least behave like one; Guilliman equates his return to the Emp finding a tool he thought he lost. I don't think it's a retcon. Guilliman was optimistic during the GC. He hoped to eventually retire. But now, there's only war.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Guilliman is sidelined for most of HH, and I think the reason for that is precisely because the writers didn't know what to do with him because he's not very interesting and his uncomplicated heroism doesn't fit the setting well except as a foil for everyone else.

Having one guy be the foil for all the other terribleness just about works (as long as you don't give him too much stage time). It doesn't really work when you appoint him leader of the whole Imperium, that changes the tone quite dramatically. We've never before had an uncomplicatedly heroic figure right as the boss of the whole show, except the effectively offscreen cleanup role he had after the end of HH. And that's why they've had to go down the MIGA vs the deep state path, with all that implies re: whether the Imperium is fundamentally flawed or just flawed in the execution.

Guilliman has a place in a grimdark story, but that place is not as the boss.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 03:06:38


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


GW destroyed 2 homeworlds of first founding chapters recently.
It is slow, but they are moving things.


I think this actually proves his point re: not being willing to really shake things up. Messing up a few homeworlds doesn't actually do anything for the bigger narrative. Destroying two founding chapters? Now that would have been a big deal - but it will also never happen, because of commercial imperatives - squatting the squats made people mad, but it'd be nothing compared to the fury if they squatted the Blood Angels. But messing up their homeworld a bit? Sure, that's totally consequence free, it literally has no impact on anything at all.


Your example would matter more if it wasn't for the fact that Blood Angels have been 100% squatted and no one did care.
Right now if you play something that isn't a primaris blood angel, you are playing a "what if" scenario or a scenario from before the actual timeline.
The blood angels have been all slaughtered to the last man. Out of all the blood angels AND all the secondary chapters, only a few dozens survived.
The sarcophagi were destroyed.
Nothing is left of the black company.

Fluff wise blood angels have been completely wiped.

Dante was then given command of a bunch of primaris marines which came from the same geneseed, but apart from that and the name there is nothing in them that is "blood angels".

So there you have it. Major faction squatted. Or do you really want GW to also enforce all blood angel miniatures into legends or it doesn't feel squatted enough to you? Because I think that many wouldn't agree with you if you proposed to invalidate a full range of miniatures for fluff reasons.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Your post reads like you're purporting to disagree with me, and yet it's actually illustrating my point. It's rather confusing. FWIW though I think your numbers are wrong, IIRC more like 300 survived, several thousand non-primaris were inducted immediately afterward, the death company wasn't totally destroyed, etc, though it doesn't really make any difference to the point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/12 06:36:41


 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Can you take the Blood Angels discussion to PMs or its own thread?

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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